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gerby77
07-05-2009, 08:32 PM
i just checked Nengun today, and found something
http://www.nengun.com/top-fuel/power-deck-spacer

The Power deck spacer!
As i can remember, i read a thread about this and this wasn't for my ST182 (with 3S-GE), but they say yes.
Does someone know the truth? And would it be hard to build this in? Where exactly would this be placed on the motor?

cheers
Eric

presure2
07-05-2009, 11:48 PM
i just checked Nengun today, and found something
http://www.nengun.com/top-fuel/power-deck-spacer

The Power deck spacer!
As i can remember, i read a thread about this and this wasn't for my ST182 (with 3S-GE), but they say yes.
Does someone know the truth? And would it be hard to build this in? Where exactly would this be placed on the motor?

cheers
Eric
this effectivly makes the plenum larger on your intake manifold.
it bolts in, in between the upper and lower sections of the intake on a 3sge.

Mafix
07-06-2009, 03:10 AM
a gen 2 ge i believe.

RedRkt01
07-06-2009, 04:39 AM
a gen 2 ge i believe.

Maybe, but I think that is a more common mod (which I'm pretty sure was disproven) on the 3rd Gen 3SGE. Looking at it I'm almost positive that is a 3rd Gen unit. However, the above post by pressure is right and could be applied to both ACIS systems. Whether it works or not may still be up for debate.

gerby77
07-06-2009, 09:48 PM
Mmmhhh, ok ;-)
So nobody tried this before on a 3s-ge (st182)? ;-) Or does some have this laying arround at home ;-)

RedRkt01
07-07-2009, 02:06 PM
I don't think it's likely that anyone Stateside has anything like this. I know some JDM part manufacturers made these things and sold them in the Asian/Aussie markets. I've heard the Aussies talking about this before and that is how I came to find out that there is little to no benefit is utilizing this mod.

gerby77
07-21-2009, 01:23 PM
I don't think it's likely that anyone Stateside has anything like this. I know some JDM part manufacturers made these things and sold them in the Asian/Aussie markets. I've heard the Aussies talking about this before and that is how I can to find out that there is little to know benefit is utilizing this mod.

so not much? maybe 5 hp?

RedRkt01
07-21-2009, 01:55 PM
One guy that tunes and races 3SGEs in Australia claims that there is literally no benefit whatsoever. He is the same guy that wrote the 3SGE articles that I donated to Ctech in the N/A sticky section.

gerby77
07-21-2009, 01:59 PM
ah ok ;-)
maybe i should look there ;-)

nuclearhappines
07-21-2009, 04:57 PM
I've seen this before done on an EVO.

plenum volume is a tricky thing to figure out, but typically 50 to 80% of your engine volume is a good plenum volume... for example a 2.0 liter 3sge would be happy with a 1.0 to 1.6 liter plenum...

These are rules of thumb of course plenum design , it's actual dimensions , and the air velocity matters too..

The thing is, if you make the plenum too large you trade off top end for throttle response...

when the plenum volume is small, when you open the throttle, the pressure change in plenum itself is faster... because there's less volume... saw an FSAE article on it, where they logged throttle action vs manifold pressure and showed a considerable and measurable time delay between a larger B18 manifold and a Smaller B16 manifold. Since the car was an FSAE car and i believe they had power limitaitons (not sure) they went with the smaller manifold that gave the same peak hp (so it wasn't an undersized manifold for their engine) and gained throttle response.

So that's the trade off... high rpm with a larger (well designed) plenum vs throttle response with a smaller plenum.

The thing that does work at boosting low rpm torque is a spacer mounted to the runners (not the plenum) like the hondata power gasket.

What this does is make the runners longer, so rather than being tuned for 3000 rpms for example, they are now resonantly tuned for 2500 rpms (depends on the thickness of the spacer) with the added benefit of marginally cooler air since the manifold will no longer heat soak from the engine (but it will heat up from ambient temperatures if you're stuck in traffic and from coolant flow in the throttle body if you didn't eliminate that circuit or get a similar spacer on the throttle body inlet).

Ultimately the best 'power gasket' you can get on a car is this:

http://speed-eng.com/store/images/AirAid%20TB%20Spacer%20NOS.jpg

from here: http://speed-eng.com/store/airaid-m-116.html?osCsid=46fbc

or this

http://media.photobucket.com/image/b18%20nitrous%20plate/RIPCivicHatch/IMG_4109.jpg

from this thread

http://www.clubcivic.com/board/showthread.php?t=157563

:devil:

gerby77
07-21-2009, 05:20 PM
LOL NOS, well ok, i thought about that, but a bit expensive or?

RedRkt01
07-21-2009, 06:34 PM
What this does is make the runners longer

But it doesn't really. No length is added between the TB and the ACIS butterfly valves by adding this spacer. The distance between point A and point B is the same. The spacer is actually above the where the runners are.....I'm not sure if you have a mental map of what all this looks like, but the runners are actually between the ACIS valves and the ACIS chamber. Adding to the heighth of the ACIS chamber would only increase volume and would not increase runner length. So once the ACIS valves are open I can't see what difference a marginally increased volume would have. After all, no more air than before is flowing through the ACIS valves and the air itself isn't flowing any faster or slower. On top of that figure for the fact that ACIS is controlled by engine RPM and the ACIS VSV. The only way to control the opening or closing of the ACIS valves would be to modify the the signal to the ACIS VSV.

RedRkt01
07-21-2009, 06:53 PM
Okay, this is from toymods. It was written by Terryo, whom I have consulted with regarding the 3rd Gen 3SGE with respect to building the proper N/A 3SGE. Sorry I can't provide the link. My comp is not cooperating.....

"OK, ive built and tried this trick on a Gen 3 engine, and had absolutely ZERO difference on our dyno, when done on its own. . Having said that, we have kept the ACIS functional on our gen 3 NA racer, cause it does produce more torque at a useful point,
The factory Gen 3NA engine in Australian spec produces 129kw@7000 rpm compared with 115kw@6600 for the gen 2.
For the gen 3, this results in just over 112kw at wheels. based on lots of modding experience and dyno time, I really struggle to believe a 30% improvment from those mods, but I'm always open to new ideas.
Whislt peak power may have risen , this happens if you change max revs. That does not mean the useable torque changes, nor does it mean the car will go faster. You need to understand the relationship between torque & power. Dynos directly measure torque and convert that number, to horsepower or kw depending on your maths. basically, comparison of peak horsepower values is meaningless unless you have the dyno chart and torque figures.
The 55mm TB can be bored out to 60mm, but its a shit of a job (read expensive).
The ACIS chamber volume on the gen 3 is 1460cc compared with 1160cc on earliee cars."

Žusty
07-22-2009, 07:51 AM
IMO it wont work, however vincent_doggy is trying over on 6gc.net heres a link to it...(still awaiting results) one of my post has links to info (the orginal japanese trial thread, and the aussie thread redrk01 is talking about)
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=66912


my celica (ST202 with the 3gen 3S-GE engine) is pretty much making 112kw @ the wheels already, your better off following the sticky 3sge modifying guide at the top of the page

nuclearhappines
07-22-2009, 09:37 AM
Redrkt, you miss read my post

The one he posted increases plenum volume

The spacers at the head (next to the where the manifold gasket meets the head port makes the runners longer...

just to clear it up in case i wasn't clear...

The former depends on weather your plenum is factory undersized..the latter is proven for low rpm torque improvement...

Right there in your 2nd post he says the chamber volume is ALREADY ~1500 cc's which if you go back to my 50% to 80% range is already on the larger end for a 2.0 liter... so no, i don't expect much at all from this mod, the plenum is already generously sized...

gerby77
07-22-2009, 09:56 AM
ok, wouldn't it be a great idea to have a sticky in which we give all the posibilities of "tuning" our machines? Because normally there are some standard things which we use.

RedRkt01
07-22-2009, 02:46 PM
The spacers at the head (next to the where the manifold gasket meets the head port makes the runners longer...

This isn't what the mod is. The spacer does not get inserted betwee the head and the manifold. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about. What myself, Rusty, and Gerby (whom all have ACIS 3SGE engines) are talking about is the ACIS spacer mod. To my knowledge there isn't anyone with a 2nd or 3rd Gen 3SGE that has done what you are talking about. In fact, of all the product support I have seen for my engine the only spacer mod I have ever seen is the Top Fuel Power Deck Spacer for ACIS; Not anything that has to do with making the runners longer.

Perhaps you and I still aren't on the same page?

EDIT: I did, indeed, misread your post. I thought you misunderstood what the mod was and why it wouldn't work as opposed to the fact that you were trying to say what would work. ;) My bad!!!

gerby77
07-22-2009, 03:03 PM
This isn't what the mod is. The spacer does not get inserted betwee the head and the manifold. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about. What myself, Rusty, and Gerby (whom all have ACIS 3SGE engines) are talking about is the ACIS spacer mod. To my knowledge there isn't anyone with a 2nd or 3rd Gen 3SGE that has done what you are talking about. In fact, of all the product support I have seen for my engine the only spacer mod I have ever seen is the Top Fuel Power Deck Spacer for ACIS; Not anything that has to do with making the runners longer.

Perhaps you and I still aren't on the same page?

EDIT: I did, indeed, misread your post. I thought you misunderstood what the mod was and why it wouldn't work as opposed to the fact that you were trying to say what would work. ;) My bad!!!

I've seen once an MR2 with 2nd gen 3s-ge in it with this spacer and it should bring up to 10 hp. By the way, when it wouldn't work, why would nengun sell it then?

RedRkt01
07-22-2009, 08:58 PM
I've seen once an MR2 with 2nd gen 3s-ge in it with this spacer and it should bring up to 10 hp. By the way, when it wouldn't work, why would nengun sell it then?

Uh.....the ACIS spacer DOES NOT WORK and this has been discussed many many times in several forums. I just posted what Terryo sais about the the dyno tests. I don't believe any person has ever achieved that since I know a guy that has dyno'd this mod and came up with nothing.

Besides, if nengun put dogshit in a jar and told you that it was anti-aging cream for your face would you believe them? Are you going to rub dogshit on your face because someone told you to? Just because someone sells something doesn't mean it works. Nengun is a company that only cares about making money; Not whether the products they sell actually work.

gerby77
07-22-2009, 09:09 PM
Uh.....the ACIS spacer DOES NOT WORK and this has been discussed many many times in several forums. I just posted what Terryo sais about the the dyno tests. I don't believe any person has ever achieved that since I know a guy that has dyno'd this mod and came up with nothing.

Besides, if nengun put dogshit in a jar and told you that it was anti-aging cream for your face would you believe them? Are you going to rub dogshit on your face because someone told you to? Just because someone sells something doesn't mean it works. Nengun is a company that only cares about making money; Not whether the products they sell actually work.

Lool, i wont discuss this further (and don't want to put you knowledge into question) but wouldn't it be a bit stupid to sell something that doesn't work, or do i have a wrong impression of nengun? ;-)

i would say if 90% of all guys here say, keep your hands off and put NOS in (which i can't pay, i think) i won't do anything loool

RedRkt01
07-22-2009, 09:19 PM
It's not really nengun that's the problem. It is all parts companys. It may be dumb for them to sell you dogshit, but if you give them money for it you are dumber. Even if the dogshit doesn't work when you rub it on your face and you never buy from that company again, there will always be some other idiot to make the mistake and give them money for dogshit.

Clearly, you trust the corporate world too much. With that in mind I'll give you a certificate that says your Celica is faster today than it was yesterday for $100. So how about it? Are you going to give me the $100? I can print up that certificate right now if you want me to.

Oh, and BTW, I would say 90% of guys on this webiste would say DO NOT USE NOS!!!! Most guys here don't condone that kind of short cut taking.

gerby77
07-22-2009, 09:38 PM
It's not really nengun that's the problem. It is all parts companys. It may be dumb for them to sell you dogshit, but if you give them money for it you are dumber. Even if the dogshit doesn't work when you rub it on your face and you never buy from that company again, there will always be some other idiot to make the mistake and give them money for dogshit.

Clearly, you trust the corporate world too much. With that in mind I'll give you a certificate that says your Celica is faster today than it was yesterday for $100. So how about it? Are you going to give me the $100? I can print up that certificate right now if you want me to.

Oh, and BTW, I would say 90% of guys on this webiste would say DO NOT USE NOS!!!! Most guys here don't condone that kind of short cut taking.

lol, no, if i calculate how much the paper would cost and your time to set the paper up, it would be worth 2$ ;-)
I know what you mean. Answers are clear ;-)

RedRkt01
07-22-2009, 10:33 PM
Thus $98 in savings! You made a wise choice my friend!!!

Žusty
07-23-2009, 07:24 AM
your better off controlling the ACIS system, by changing the swap over.

RedRkt01
07-23-2009, 01:33 PM
Rusty, I'm not familiar with the swap over.....please explain.

Žusty
07-24-2009, 12:55 AM
you cahange the rpm point where the butterflys in the ACIS chamber switch over heres, a person who has done it, but no dyno results to show any power gain.

.....

Parts required:

A spare vacuum solenoid valve, some length of automotive wire, and this Jaycar kit (Frequency Relay Switch) ---

http://www.jaycar.co.nz/products_uploaded/productLarge_7567.jpg (http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=KC5378&CATID=&keywords=frequency+switch&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=)

Soooooo.... The standard engage point for ACIS is roughly 4800 RPM, the point where it goes niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiBWARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, in 2nd gear and the tachometer lunges past the 5k mark (65kph) and the car gains speed as though the pedal wasnt floored before but now it is....

Now that my custom ACIS RPM-adjustable controller project is complete, I set out to test it out at a tiny bit over 4k... And the results are amazing.... the same speed jump at the 5k mark is observed at the 4k mark (52kph)..........

I've recorded a video which I think demonstrates this (not dyno proof, but judge for yourself)...

Sorry about the first 30 seconds of engine braking, the rest of it is a motorway run testing out the 4k engage point with 2nd and 4th gears.... 2nd gear 4k is 55kph, 4th gear 4k is 110kph
http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo23/nzcelica/SS-III/Tech/th_Video007.jpg

RedRkt01
07-24-2009, 01:02 AM
okay. I have seen that before. So you have done this and you are adequately satisfied with it?

Žusty
07-24-2009, 06:44 AM
no nah I haven't done it, dont want to either.