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View Full Version : 3SGE questions (gen 3 vs BEAMS black top)



Grot
06-22-2009, 10:41 PM
Ive decided i want to go n/a vs turbo.

Now i have to make the decision to get a gen 3 or a black top.

First off does anyone have either of these motors?
I know joey has a gen 3 and tekstep has a gen 2.

How hard is it gonna be to find parts for either engine?

What type of rewiring is gonna be required?
Will i have to make the Dash harness mate to the engine harness?

celica9303
06-23-2009, 12:08 AM
Is your celica rwd? If not the redtop beams is your best bet

Grot
06-23-2009, 01:40 AM
nope, ima fwd.

What are the reasons you say redtop?

I dont know much of anything about the 3sges past 1st gen

celica9303
06-23-2009, 02:36 AM
Blacktop is setup for rwd and won't work in a fwd vehicle and the red top is a bad as n/a motor. With 200bhp and a 7600 or 8k redline. And it makes good power all the way through till red line prett much. That's the motor I'm in turmoil over vs. The 3rd Gen 205 3sgte because I love both motors. If you want check out www.mr2.com and its I believe under the mk 2 section and it has a sectionn devoted to the beams. And check out beamsownersgroup.com or something like that. Google redtop beams 3sge

Freshnicity
06-23-2009, 04:40 AM
Any BEAMS motor is beastly from what I understand.

Grot, what are your plans for the car exactly? track? DD?

Grot
06-23-2009, 06:49 PM
it will be a weekender and may end up DD. the blacktop will have the same engine mount locations so it should fit in fwd. but brackets will probably be required for ps alt etc... i may go for redtop since its already fwd set up. it seems like everyone likes the beams. are the 3rd and the beams around the same price? there are a ton of beams on ebay, but i dont really trust buying an engine on ebay.

celica9303
06-23-2009, 07:36 PM
Black top is not setup for fwd and won't work. None of the fwd trans will mate to it from whst I've researched. Redtop is the best way to go

RedRkt01
06-23-2009, 07:44 PM
I went with a 3rd Gen 3SGE because it has more upgrade options than the BEAMS engines. The fact that you can't play with the valvetrain seriously hinders your ability to tune the engine without a shitload of cash.

Properly tuned, the 3rd Gen 3SGE can put down serious power to the wheels.

My91GTS
06-23-2009, 07:47 PM
You could put a black top in but its not worth it but if you still want here (http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams/Toyota-MR2-11679-writeup-rwd-beams-transverse-vice-versa.html) you go.

Grot
06-23-2009, 10:27 PM
the 3rd gen will end up cheaper too i would assume. the wiring sgouldnt be too difficult shud it. would you recommend getting a harness from tweak or do it myself?

Cavanagh
06-23-2009, 10:34 PM
I went with a 3rd Gen 3SGE because it has more upgrade options than the BEAMS engines. The fact that you can't play with the valvetrain seriously hinders your ability to tune the engine without a shitload of cash.

Properly tuned, the 3rd Gen 3SGE can put down serious power to the wheels.
Agree. Beams are really overrated in my opinion. Yea, they are impressive motors, but there is not a whole lot of room to play with them. They are alot more restricted (tuning/performance wise) then other motors.

Edit* Didnt see your reponse. Tweak without a single doubt in my mind. The man does excellent work and knows what he's doing, thus it will then become plug n play.

celica9303
06-24-2009, 01:56 AM
I'd still take a beams redtop over a blacktop or 3rd Gen 3sge anyday but that's just me and I'd go to tweak for a harness. As I am going to do when I decide on my swap

KoreanJoey
06-24-2009, 05:09 AM
If you're going to leave it stock. Redtop, no doubt about it. Power curve is more forgiving, more power, ETC. If you're going to build, 3rd Gen, definitely.

Grot
06-24-2009, 05:39 AM
as far as stock, do may do bolt-ons? i dont think i will get into Cams or anything like that.

KoreanJoey
06-24-2009, 06:05 AM
Then I'd say Redtop. I've gotta say that having the 3rd gen is pretty shitty to drive around as the powerband is high and bogs really bad @ lower RPMs.

Freshnicity
06-24-2009, 06:10 AM
Redtop powerband

Gen3 3sge powerband

Joey can you shed some light on the differences?

Grot
06-24-2009, 06:25 AM
the black top has a little more power because of the addition of the exaust cam vvit, but was never made avaliable in a FWD format. So alot of custom fab would have to be done to get the blacktop to fit.

Freshnicity
06-24-2009, 06:29 AM
the black top has a little more power because of the addition of the exaust cam vvit, but was never made avaliable in a FWD format. So alot of custom fab would have to be done to get the blacktop to fit.

I ment 3rd gen 3sge motor. I slipped my bad.

And what i ment was, whats the powerband like.

mid/top end HP/torque differences.

tuning/aftermarket for parts and mods etc.

KoreanJoey
06-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Well from my previous experience w/ VVTI VS non-VVTI, it allows for more usable power at lower powerbands while retaining the power at higher RPM. You can probably use adjustable cam gears on the 3rd gen to get some of that midrange back but the Redtop does that automatically, hence the advantage.

Žusty
06-24-2009, 06:55 AM
I went with a 3rd Gen 3SGE because it has more upgrade options than the BEAMS engines. The fact that you can't play with the valvetrain seriously hinders your ability to tune the engine without a shitload of cash.

Properly tuned, the 3rd Gen 3SGE can put down serious power to the wheels.
agree


Agree. Beams are really overrated in my opinion. Yea, they are impressive motors, but there is not a whole lot of room to play with them. They are alot more restricted (tuning/performance wise) then other motors.

Edit* Didnt see your reponse. Tweak without a single doubt in my mind. The man does excellent work and knows what he's doing, thus it will then become plug n play.
agree again

power and torque are pretty close
I've done a information thread over on 6gc.net about the redtop and the 3rd Gen 3SGE, it goes over the specs (simalarties & differences) and some tuning of the engines, hope its some use to you.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61995

Freshnicity
06-24-2009, 07:12 AM
agree


agree again

power and torque are pretty close
I've done a information thread over on 6gc.net about the redtop and the 3rd Gen 3SGE, it goes over the specs (simalarties & differences) and some tuning of the engines, hope its some use to you.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61995

Cool info.

Thanks for that.

And i think i get it now.

usp45
06-25-2009, 01:20 AM
They're all good engines. Just build it right for what you want. Get the best deal. Most Yota blocks can be made to go like a raped monkey!!!.... with the right parts and specs.

Thread jack kinda:
I wonder how a 3sge/beams head would do on a blueprinted, bombproof high comp. forged piston, H beam rod, rev1 3sge, managed by standalone ecu, utilizing custom knock sensor/s, tuned right wit sum race gas. I'm guessing it would kick ass? Ofcourse you'd want the beams intake, tuned collector-2.5 exhaust, and at this point a shot of goofey gas. But at that point there's alot of different ways to go fast dollar-wise.

Grot
06-25-2009, 04:38 AM
sounds fun. more off topic but hey its my thread.

Are the block of the 1st and 3rd gen 3sge interchangable?

CriScO
06-25-2009, 05:08 AM
sounds fun. more off topic but hey its my thread.

Are the block of the 1st and 3rd gen 3sge interchangable?
Ehhh... The same way any S block is interchangable, at least. You can make it work but there's gonna be problems to work out.

I don't know specifics between those blocks, but for example one of the Alabama guys(it was Bugs or VIP as I recall...) used a GE block in his All-Trac. Had to grind the back of the block so the diff would fit. Things of that nature.

Žusty
06-25-2009, 07:16 AM
why would you want to swap a 1st gen 3sge onto a gen 3-4 (there is some differences between the 1st and later 3s's some parts are not interchangable, like head parts)

you can use parts from a 5sfe to make a 2.2L 3S-GE ;)

RedRkt01
06-26-2009, 01:24 PM
why would you want to swap a 1st gen 3sge onto a gen 3-4 (there is some differences between the 1st and later 3s's some parts are not interchangable, like head parts)

you can use parts from a 5sfe to make a 2.2L 3S-GE ;)

I can't think of any reason to use an older 3SGE block. Especially with all the advances that came after the 1st Gen unit.

Žusty
06-27-2009, 12:08 AM
yeah
3gen 3sge or newer are great engines, due to the head design (shim underbucket)

RedRkt01
06-27-2009, 01:46 AM
Even the bottom ends are better. Reworked oil galleys, oil coolers, and oil squirters. Gen1 has none of that.

Choncifier1
12-18-2009, 03:49 PM
BLacktop was an easy swap for me. I have a 1994 ST though.http://i45.tinypic.com/68gg01.jpghttp://i45.tinypic.com/rwnrkz.jpg

Mr. Babb
12-18-2009, 03:56 PM
thats a blacktop 4age they're talking about a blacktop/redtop 3sge


Totally different engines

KoreanJoey
12-18-2009, 04:47 PM
^x2

I <3 my Gen 3 3SGE.

donteatbugs
12-18-2009, 07:07 PM
i would love to have a red top in mt 7th gen, the 3s is such a nice engine. i dont mind the 2zz though.