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Grot
06-14-2009, 04:27 AM
Been thinking about starting to unquestionably dump money into my celica again.

So my options as of now are:

Rebuilt 3S-GE
Frankenstein a 5S-GE
find a 3S-GTE (165 or 185 better)

Obviously i want to do the GTE but funds may not allow that. My second choice would be the 5s-ge but dont know of any shops to get the required work done at.

schnee
06-16-2009, 01:33 PM
Easy, Rebuild the 3S-GE
With 1mm O/S pistons ($180) you've already got 1/2 a 5S and none of the reliability issues.

If money is short, wake up - the coffee's gone cold. GTE's always find ways for you to reach bankruptcy and it gets worse - the injectors are twice the size of the GE

You can always bolt a turbo onto the GE later, boost will be limited to whatever pistons you use now

Mafix
06-16-2009, 03:51 PM
fix the GE.

rev_head
06-16-2009, 03:54 PM
could always go a later model ge the gen 2 i believe is a very easy convertion or yer rebuild they a good motor i love my rebuilt ge

schnee
06-16-2009, 05:51 PM
Sorry Rev, I believe they didn't get Gen2-4 GE's over in USA.
Only FE and GTE?

CriScO
06-16-2009, 08:17 PM
Sorry Rev, I believe they didn't get Gen2-4 GE's over in USA.
Only FE and GTE?
Yes, the only 3S-GE that came to North America originally was the 1st gen. It isn't like we can't get the later ones, though. :)

As for fixing the first gen, we've been down that road what, three times now? I think the motors are trying to tell Grot to go bigger. :hehe:

Mafix
06-16-2009, 09:44 PM
obviously he isn't donig something right
or isn't maintaining them
or doesn't have the funds to assemble/fix one right
or plain doesn't give a damn

Grot
06-16-2009, 10:39 PM
No, i chose a shady rebuild company, didnt research before hand and they do shitty work.

Im doing this one myself so i know that it wont get fucked up.

ChrisD
06-16-2009, 11:13 PM
I vote 3S-GTE. Properly maintained, they can be very reliable.

CriScO
06-16-2009, 11:33 PM
obviously he isn't donig something right
or isn't maintaining them
or doesn't have the funds to assemble/fix one right
or plain doesn't give a damn
No, no. The company that rebuilt the motor kept fucking it up. They weren't his fault at all.

RedRkt01
06-16-2009, 11:57 PM
Im doing this one myself so i know that it wont get fucked up.

My previous offer still stands for product support. The idea is to get you taken care of.

Grot
06-17-2009, 01:23 AM
I appreciate that man. After i talk to my dad and see what he wants to do with the car i will let you, along with the rest of the site know.

rev_head
06-17-2009, 04:06 AM
Sorry Rev, I believe they didn't get Gen2-4 GE's over in USA.
Only FE and GTE?

we never really got them here either except for the very odd mr2 and i think that was only 3rd gen? Point is you can still get them very cheap from importer here for less than a gte and the costs of the install would be alot cheaper to.

DaneDog311
07-05-2009, 06:56 AM
you've already got 1/2 a 5S and none of the reliability issues.

What's wrong with the 5sfe that has reliability issues?

I say rebuild the 3sge and run with it

schnee
07-05-2009, 07:46 AM
You mean apart from the fact that the FE bottom end was never designed for more than 100kw?

Here's a comparison near the bottom of the page
http://www.st162.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3828&start=100

tekstep01
07-25-2009, 11:26 PM
[QUOTE=schnee]You mean apart from the fact that the FE bottom end was never designed for more than 100kw?

I can honestly attest to that...
FE bottom end first gen ge head, great tourqe, but really limited revs!!! at 4k it sounded ready to blow up!
so it lasted about three months, in one month it started knocking, but drove with the knock for two. never spun the bearing either so i can re-build it.

buy a 2nd gen 3sge, i bought a longblock (damn nie complete motor) for 700 @ toysport, still runs titties! tight! :Ban1:

schnee
07-26-2009, 03:15 AM
I'm more concerned about the rods themselves, they don't look like they can withstand any punishment at all. There's actually very little difference in the cranks themselves, unless you use the balencer type.

If you want revs, the trick is to use a late 5S crank (bigger journals). Cut the big ends down to around 45mm while offsetting them to DECREASE the stroke. This will make the motor want to rev a lot harder and make better use of the 16V head.

Also you will then have to fit longer rods to get the pistons back up where they were.
Pref choose some from a high revving motor without those stupid oil holes! The longer rods will increase piston dwell (ie power) and the shorter stroke will want to rev.

The lack of rod holes will keep the oil around the bearing longer and at a constant pressure and help avoid all these blowups I'm seeing lately.
If you can afford custom titanium rods - it's probably the single best investment you can make in these motors - short of the HKS or Crower replacement cranks which should be able to withstand 700hp

So, in short. Bigger isn't always better, this is a classic example.

Personally both my motors have big end issues and my wallet has an emptyness issue.
I'm looking at Mercedes/Mitsi/BM rods and cross drilling the big end oil supply holes as well as using the smaller gen2 oil pump pulley.
Cutting supply slots in the main journal holes also helps feed more oil to the big ends

tekstep01
07-26-2009, 10:47 AM
SOUNDS quite technical, but i boiled it all down to using the second gen GE, cause the bottom end is balanced better, and has the oil injectors...
i get 80 psi at 3k, not bad for a DD...
also it has the turbo pistons and rods (stock! witch is hella cool!)
and about 4k is where Avis kicks in and runs it up to 6k. like a bat outta hell with bad gas, blowin flames n shit!
yeah i always thought the ge journals are a bit on the small side for the revs it puts out...
i got some bearings out of a 1st gen with slots and they have worked great!
good advice!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/306/sspx0091.jpg

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2213/sspx0081.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8327/sspx0102.jpg
:zed:

schnee
07-26-2009, 11:54 AM
I have the exact same motor in the shed,- My motor page (http://www.st162.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3828&start=140)
It has raised pistons (9,5/1 I think), factory oil cooler and no oil injectors?

I think the injectors appeared on the gen3 block onwards?
The gen3 also has improved conrods over the gen1/2 GE and even more compression than the gen2

That head is a major improvement, the porting, cams, exhaust (yours is wrong) are all superior to the gen1. Only complaint I have with it is the 190cc injectors vs 140cc on the gen1. Wheras the 3S-FE can get away with 100cc (non-egr ver) - thats 1/2 the fuel consumpion already

I want to build a super ecomical, reliable motor but still try to keep some of the power.

Call me crazy, but I'm looking at building a strong bottom end with an FE head (ported, later cams and chamber re-shaped off course!).
GE 9/1 pistons should allow it run on anything more volatile than peanut oil.

It's the opposite of what everyone else here is trying to do, but I think it could work well, who knows when the next petrol crisis will hit?
Emissions controls are getting stricker worldwide which is another future problem I'm hoping to avoid.

Powerful motors are great but they need more fuel to make them powerful, that causes problems with emission control.

rev_head
07-27-2009, 12:03 PM
only if u have to get your emission checked regularly :P hell my car passed a genuine roadwurthy with a hacked egr here in oz lol

are the heads on the ge's interchangabel through out the generations? i assume after market ecu would be required for any actual gains

tekstep01
07-28-2009, 01:25 AM
i love the 4-2-1 exaust, it sounds throaty and def. theres a diffrence in the pickup around 3k, compared to 4-1...
i dont care about superiorty i just love my little fast car!!!

schnee
07-28-2009, 03:32 AM
I think the gen2 exhaust has even more torque and none of the cracking problems as on the gen1 (cracks between cyl 2-3)

Rev
That motor in the pic is using the gen1 AFM and I guess the gen1 ECU. (stock gen2 has no AFM)
I'm told these motors will even work with the 4A-GE harness & ECU. So you could use FE or GE ECU/harness if you wanted to.

Gen3 & gen4 heads have different water jackets and gaskets, not compatible with earlier blocks

We don't have emissions checks here, but they are mounting sensors on highway offramps now - so it's only a matter of time. Obama is talking about re-vamping US emission laws which could make life difficult for tuners in future.

ps. Did you know - JDM engines burn cleaner, the EGR system is only a smog control device?

rev_head
07-28-2009, 12:05 PM
the reson i said different ecu is the tune would be different so yes capable of more but if being run on the lighter tuning shouldnt make a difference.
but yer give it 15-20 years if it doesnt run on pure air itl probably be illegal lol\

good to know about the heads. I had considered using the gen1 block and running a later head with something like a microtech in the other 162 for a track car