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ciento44
05-11-2009, 09:10 PM
I know there's write-ups on here, but after a lengthy discussion with various people, i'm now unsure if the procedures laid out here will work for what i'm trying to do.

The issue:

My clutch pedal height is perfect. Exactly how i like it. The engagement point is not. It's way too high. It's too high to the point that i'm afraid that if i stuff a gear, it's slipping. I only have to push the pedal in a quarter to a half an inch before it starts to disengage. I want to fix it.

How do i specifically change the ENGAGEMENT point of the clutch? I want it closer to the floor.

grayscale
05-11-2009, 09:15 PM
If you do that it will lengthen your shift times. Just get used to it.

If you really want to change it then just burn your clutch up some.:bigthumbu

ciento44
05-11-2009, 09:19 PM
If you do that it will lengthen your shift times. Just get used to it.

If you really want to change it then just burn your clutch up some.:bigthumbu

I slam my foot to the floorboards when i'm dogging on it anyways.... just how i learned to drive. My shift times are now longer, and i can't drive this car smoothly to save my life. I would be fine with shortening the pedal height, too, if it meant it would engage closer to the floor. Whatever i need to do. I just want it to engage a couple inches off the floor. Yes, i'm serious.

Even YOU had a hard time with it at the Dragon two years ago, remember? :p

grayscale
05-11-2009, 09:35 PM
I just want it to engage a couple inches off the floor.
I suppose you could always lengthen the rod that goes to the clutch pedal, that would push the pedal closer to the floor, the only drawback is once the clutch had a good bit of wear you wouldn't have much adjustment left.
What size shoe do you wear?


Even YOU had a hard time with it at the Dragon two years ago, remember? :p
That's because I was used to driving on a burnt clutch at the time?:D

ciento44
05-11-2009, 09:47 PM
I suppose you could always lengthen the rod that goes to the clutch pedal, that would push the pedal closer to the floor, the only drawback is once the clutch had a good bit of wear you wouldn't have much adjustment left.
What size shoe do you wear?


That's because I was used to driving on a burnt clutch at the time?:D


I wear a 9.

Now, the weird thing is.... this car has a new clutch, and so did the coupe. The coupe's pedal height was about 3" shorter, and it engaged about 2" off the floor.

Why is this one different? There are two adjustment points on the pedal up there... you're telling me that neither of them can help me attain what i'm looking for?

I mean... this thing is engaging high enough to the point that i'm almost afraid sometimes that i'm just burning up my clutch while i'm driving around in gear....

grayscale
05-11-2009, 09:57 PM
No idea, you'll have to mess with it and see what you get. I like mine to engage high. I use mine like I do the other pedals, heel stays in one spot on the floor and I just straiten out my foot to depress the pedal, no leg movement or foot off the floor action involved.

Shadowlife25
05-11-2009, 11:31 PM
You are supposed to adjust the pedal height and engagement point after installing a new clutch.
I already told you Ben, you need to learn to drive with a proper clutch installed. There is nothing wrong with it.
If it bothers you so much, do what I told you and make your adjustment. It is easily done in-cabin with a pair of (I believe) 14mm wrenches.

CriScO
05-12-2009, 05:15 AM
I'm having deja-vu from like a year ago... :hehe:

alltracman78
05-12-2009, 05:53 AM
Just slide your seat further back.
Engagement up top means you have a new disc and a correctly functioning system [good master/slave cylinders].

Shadowlife25
05-12-2009, 07:16 AM
Just slide your seat further back.
Engagement up top means you have a new disc and a correctly functioning system [good master/slave cylinders].

Which is exactly what I told him. Grrrr, learn to drive Ben. :p

celica91gts
05-12-2009, 07:25 AM
tis is true. after my new clutch install i found my catch point was a lot higher, before that i was used to resting my heel on the floor never having to move anything but my feet. after the new clutch install i learned to drive and i have to lift my foot off the ground, but in return when i drive my friends cars now and days i dont ride the clutch and no jerky starts. =)

ciento44
05-12-2009, 03:06 PM
This is getting weirder. Nobody has answered my question as of yet. Toyota dealership says that there is NO adjustment for engagement point on this car.

So who is right?

Can i adjust the engagement point, and how?

My pedal is high enough that if i put my heel on the ground, i CANNOT work the clutch keeping my heel on the floor.

If i slide my seat farther back, i cannot put the gas pedal to the floor. I'm already farther back than i'm already comfortable with in relation to my steering wheel.

I have a real clutch. It's a Toyota disc with a Clutchmasters Stage 1 pressure plate. My coupe had brand new Toyota clutch with band new toyota pressure plate, and it was NOTHING like this. The dealership put it to factory specs, and it was perfect. This is absolutely not factory specs by any stretch of the imagination.

But basically what everyone is telling me is that it's perfectly acceptable to have a quarter inch or less of "deadplay" in a clutch pedal from the topmost position?

So far i've gotten the following answers:

1) It's correct as it sits, the strange engagement is indication of a properly set up system, even though it engages high enough that it's on the verge of slipping.

2) You cannot adjust it

3) You CAN adjust it, but don't because it's correct

4) You CAN adjust it, and should.


I'll work on it tonite and see what i figure out. I'll report back with a write-up.

ciento44
05-12-2009, 03:39 PM
Found the procedure, will be fixed tonite. :D

Lonestag
05-12-2009, 03:58 PM
Regardless, it would be interesting to see the procedure.

ciento44
05-12-2009, 04:06 PM
^Here you go man, it's in this thread.

Interesting the different views as to how clutchs should be adjusted.....

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6813&highlight=clutch+adjustment

Lonestag
05-12-2009, 04:54 PM
Cool man,
I'm sure this will be a big help if I ever try to tackle a tranny swap.

Shadowlife25
05-12-2009, 06:26 PM
Ben, you're being a fuckin noob. Again. If you listen you would realize that we covered this discussion when I was out there. That IS the adjustment procedure.

Shadowlife25
05-12-2009, 06:41 PM
Ben, PAY YOUR PHONE BILL!!!
How am I supposed to call you if you got no phone.
Stop sucking.
That is all/

ciento44
05-12-2009, 06:48 PM
Ben, you're being a fuckin noob. Again. If you listen you would realize that we covered this discussion when I was out there. That IS the adjustment procedure.

Bud, you're leaving out the rest of the discussion. You know, the part where both you and Matt agreed that it was a hydraulic system that you were both unsure of whether or not ENGAGEMENT point ONLY could be adjusted.

You didn't understand the adjustment procedure that i showed you that day out of the Haynes manual, which after review, is the same procedure in the link up there. Neither did Matt. Neither did I.

I realize that i'm the worst mechanic on the face of the planet and shouldn't touch a car with a microfiber, we can stop beating that point home. But this thread ALONE shows the fact that very few people know anything about how to do this, or if it even CAN be done.

I shit you not, i've had at least those 4 answers that i've layed out in this thread, and you've even flip flopped between a couple of them.

So which answer do i listen to? The one that is going to enable me to fix my clutch. Because it IS adjusted incorrectly. You gave me the right answer once, i agree. Then you turned around and said that well maybe that wasn't it once Matt started to second guess the theory.

Everyone who has never driven the car is trying to tell me that the clutch is adjusted correctly. Cannon is the ONLY person who HAS driven the car that says that it IS adjusted correctly. Over 10 people have driven that car other than him, and everyone says the same thing: "WTF is wrong with your clutch?!?!?!?" I told you that while you were here, and you said it was fine.

Noob or not, i have my answer, and i appreciate everyone's input on the subject, regardless of whether or not i took the advice. I really do. :)

Clean it up, put the procedure in a maintenence sticky or something, whatever. This is the 4th or 5th time in the last 12 months this question has been asked on this site with a plethora of answers. All different.

I'll report tomorrow, still.

ciento44
05-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Ben, PAY YOUR PHONE BILL!!!
How am I supposed to call you if you got no phone.
Stop sucking.
That is all/

Friday. I'm strapped.

ciento44
05-12-2009, 06:52 PM
I still want sweet sweet lovin' from you anywayz. <3

RedRkt01
05-12-2009, 07:12 PM
I've never done this so I have nothing to add. But Ben's right, it IS interesting. I guess I'll find out for myself what this is like.....I'll be replacing a clutch shortly.

KoreanJoey
05-13-2009, 07:59 AM
You can adjust pedal travel. HOWEVER, if you have it too tight you will annihilate your throw-out bearing as it will be under load all the time. BUT it sounds like you'll be going the other way so you'll just have a floppy pedal for the first half of the travel (PS: You can just add another return spring if you want more resistance)

ciento44
05-13-2009, 03:30 PM
I got it taken care of.

I didn't have a chance to take pics though, was working under the wire.

I'll get back in in the next couple days and do a detailed procedure. The BGB was a little vague, but it wasn't that bad to figure out.

ciento44
05-14-2009, 03:08 AM
^You said vtec is for pussies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ivytak is where its at holmes!

Anyway, this is good to know. I was unsure if you could do this on a hydraulic system.

But just to clear things up a bit ben, like joey said, you are adjusting pedal travel, and not the engagement point of the clutch.


No, i'm not.

If i was adjusting ONLY pedal travel, then my clutch would never fully engage. It was to the point that if i laid a toe on the clutch, it would slip. If i moved the travel down, and less, it would never engage, and i wouldn't go anywhere.

The engagement point is now about 4-5 inches closer to the floor than it was.

Ryan
05-14-2009, 03:15 AM
Is it not slipping anymore?

Are you POSITIVE that it is a new clutch? Or was that just what the previous owner told you?

alltracman78
05-14-2009, 03:15 AM
Good Lord.
You get my long answer of the week.
This is the CORRECT way to adjust the pedal. I don't care what anyone else tells you, THIS is the way it's supposed to be done. Read below.



But basically what everyone is telling me is that it's perfectly acceptable to have a quarter inch or less of "deadplay" in a clutch pedal from the topmost position?

Yes.
This is called pedal freeplay.
There is nothing on the pedal that is designed specifically to adjust engagement point.
There are 2 adjustments on the pedal.

The first one is for pedal height [the total distance from the floor of the car to the top of the pedal "pad" with the pedal fully released]. There is a bolt with a nut [Lagos called it a sensor in your link], this is what controls the final height of the pedal. Loosen the nut and turn the bolt until you have the right height. It should be 163 - 173 mm from the floor.

Once you have the height adjusted, you adjust pedal freeplay. This is the deadplay you're talking about. Freeplay is the amount of spare room you have between the top of the pedal travel and when you first start engaging the clutch master cylinder [Remember, engaging the master cylinder doesn't mean the clutch is released yet. It could be, but isn't necessarily].
Freeplay is adjusted with the threaded rot and nut. Loosen the nut, then turn the rod until you have the correct amount. For our cars it's 5 - 15 mm.

Once you have these 2 adjusted, you check your clutch engagement. It's supposed to be anywhere between the top of pedal travel and 25mm from the bottom of pedal travel. So if you're total pedal travel was 150mm, clutch engagement should be anywhere in the first 125mm.
If your engagement point isn't somewhere in that range then something is wrong with the system [master cylinder, slave, lines, ect].

Now, about the clutch engagement point; with a new clutch I've pretty much always had it at the top of the pedal travel. I can't think of a time when it hasn't. My truck and both my running Alltracs engage up top. All 3 have new clutches [less than 10,000 miles on any of them]. Same goes for all the clutches I've done at work, and any new cars I've driven [very few].

A brand new disc is going to force the fingers on the pressure plate all the way in, which means they only need a little bit of pressure from the master cylinder to push the contact plate [pressure plate] away from the disc.
As the disc wears it allows the fingers to move outwards, requiring more movement to pull the contact plate away.

Now, with all that said, the more freeplay you adjust into the pedal the closer to the floor the engagement point is going to be.
But if you adjust it too far you will eventually run out of pedal travel, and your clutch won't fully release.

Does that all make a little more sense now?

ciento44
05-14-2009, 03:32 AM
Good Lord.
You get my long answer of the week.
This is the CORRECT way to adjust the pedal. I don't care what anyone else tells you, THIS is the way it's supposed to be done. Read below.



Yes.
This is called pedal freeplay.
There is nothing on the pedal that is designed specifically to adjust engagement point.
There are 2 adjustments on the pedal.

The first one is for pedal height [the total distance from the floor of the car to the top of the pedal "pad" with the pedal fully released]. There is a bolt with a nut [Lagos called it a sensor in your link], this is what controls the final height of the pedal. Loosen the nut and turn the bolt until you have the right height. It should be 163 - 173 mm from the floor.

Once you have the height adjusted, you adjust pedal freeplay. This is the deadplay you're talking about. Freeplay is the amount of spare room you have between the top of the pedal travel and when you first start engaging the clutch master cylinder [Remember, engaging the master cylinder doesn't mean the clutch is released yet. It could be, but isn't necessarily].
Freeplay is adjusted with the threaded rot and nut. Loosen the nut, then turn the rod until you have the correct amount. For our cars it's 5 - 15 mm.

Once you have these 2 adjusted, you check your clutch engagement. It's supposed to be anywhere between the top of pedal travel and 25mm from the bottom of pedal travel. So if you're total pedal travel was 150mm, clutch engagement should be anywhere in the first 125mm.
If your engagement point isn't somewhere in that range then something is wrong with the system [master cylinder, slave, lines, ect].

Now, about the clutch engagement point; with a new clutch I've pretty much always had it at the top of the pedal travel. I can't think of a time when it hasn't. My truck and both my running Alltracs engage up top. All 3 have new clutches [less than 10,000 miles on any of them]. Same goes for all the clutches I've done at work, and any new cars I've driven [very few].

A brand new disc is going to force the fingers on the pressure plate all the way in, which means they only need a little bit of pressure from the master cylinder to push the contact plate [pressure plate] away from the disc.
As the disc wears it allows the fingers to move outwards, requiring more movement to pull the contact plate away.

Now, with all that said, the more freeplay you adjust into the pedal the closer to the floor the engagement point is going to be.
But if you adjust it too far you will eventually run out of pedal travel, and your clutch won't fully release.

Does that all make a little more sense now?

Roight. I gotcha. The only part of what you said that i was questioning was the lack of freeplay that is apparently acceptable. I figured it out using what you just said.

'preciate it though. :D

ciento44
05-14-2009, 03:33 AM
Is it not slipping anymore?

Are you POSITIVE that it is a new clutch? Or was that just what the previous owner told you?


I'm positive. I have receipts, i trust the seller, and the car kicks like a sonofabitch now.

Ryan
05-14-2009, 03:42 AM
I'm positive. I have receipts, i trust the seller, and the car kicks like a sonofabitch now.


Just making sure man. I didnt want you to be doing all this and it not help at all. :)

alltracman78
05-14-2009, 04:09 AM
Cleaned up the thread, please keep it on topic.


Roight. I gotcha. The only part of what you said that i was questioning was the lack of freeplay that is apparently acceptable. I figured it out using what you just said.

'preciate it though. :D

Cool :)
Just wanted to make sure you understood everything.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 04:20 AM
Ok....0with all this said how do you know if the clutch isn't engaging all the way? Mine just doesn't feel like it grabs very well anymore. And my car is very hard to get into gear sometimes it goes some times it doesn't find the gear at all if I need to make a separate thread I will buy since it might be clutch related I thought if ask. I have a center force df clutch kit speedsource extened rod and lightweight flywheel if that matters.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 04:26 AM
I have roughly 30- 40k miles on the clutch. I'm not sure what the mileage was when I installed it
Anymore but it was some where between 80,000 and 90,000 on the odometer and I now am at 127k

alltracman78
05-14-2009, 04:32 AM
No, leave it here, might as well keep the info together.

If it isn't engaging all the way it's going to slip.
To check that, get up to ~ 40 MPH, put it in 5th and give it full throttle.
Car should bog and be very sluggish until you've built up speed.

If it's not fully disengaging you will have trouble shifting.
To check that get the car on a level surface, put the trans in 1st and hold in the clutch. The car shouldn't move.
OR, put the trans in N with the engine running, hold the clutch in for ~ 10 sec, then try to put the trans in R. The gear shouldn't grind. This isn't quite as fool proof.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 04:49 AM
Ok ill try that tomorow. My trans grinds a lot going it to reverse and sometimes I have to force it in to gear. Or pump the clutch occasionaly. And it(whole car) vibrates a lot in gear(like sitting at a light in first) but I put in neutral and vibration goes away. Should I try bleeding it again? Ill try the things stated above tomorow and get back to you

Also it seems like 2nd and 3rd completly dissapear and I have to let the rpm's drop enough and my speed too get back to first or at least intill it will let me get into the gear I want (all this is recent like in the past 2 or 3 months its gotten really bad)

Grot
05-14-2009, 04:53 AM
almost sounds like motor mounts.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 05:10 AM
Could be I know they are original. I'm not necessarily convinced its clutch related might be bad syncro too but thought id ask here
How do I adjust the disengagement of the clutch?or can't I. Ill get back with what Jeremy asked me to do tormorow

alltracman78
05-14-2009, 05:13 AM
Read post # 30 for clutch pedal adjustment.

You also might have problem with the slave cyl rod and/or the clutch itself.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 06:10 AM
I did read post 30 which is why I brought this up to you, I will also check pedal height and freeplay tomorrow morn. Freeplay seems dead on

When you say problem with slave rod do you mean the slave itself ? Like its going bad and not pressing on the fork enough. When I bleed the clutch after installing the new rod I did it with the car off should you bleed the clutch system with the car running or off?

KoreanJoey
05-14-2009, 06:25 AM
Doesn't matter, doesn't matter on brakes either but the clutch system isn't vacuum assisted even.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 06:37 AM
Thanks Joey. Ok well off to bed will report my findings tomorrow

ciento44
05-14-2009, 03:28 PM
Cleaned up the thread, please keep it on topic.



Cool :)
Just wanted to make sure you understood everything.

Yeps! You cleared up the vagueness of the BGB. :)

donteatbugs
05-14-2009, 04:23 PM
i like my clutch slightly burnt please.... and right off the floor. i have set my clutch in both my cars, i need to reset the alltracs though becuase it has moved up since the last time i drove it.

Slider
05-14-2009, 08:21 PM
celica9303:

Bleed your system, see if that helps. Check your slave cylinder, pull back the little rubber boot and see if any fluid is in there, if there is you'll need a new slave cylinder, you might as well do the master cylinder also if the slave is bad because they usually go out around the same time.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 11:26 PM
Findings:
1. Car doesn't bog when shift to 5th @ round 40mph
2. Oppon start-up won't go into reverse with out grinding a lot
3. Holding clutch in on level surface in 1st. Give it alil gas it sometimes rolls forward

So basicly I think I thrashed my 300 dollar clutch. Am going to adjust pedal tomorow after work and bleed system also to see if that helps. Clutch is engaging right off floor

celica9303
05-14-2009, 11:37 PM
Slider- I will check slave and master cylinder , most likly will replacethem both soon. I just don't want to do another clutch in this trans this soon

a_mounty
05-14-2009, 11:42 PM
Findings:
1. Car doesn't bog when shift to 5th @ round 40mph
2. Oppon start-up won't go into reverse with out grinding a lot
3. Holding clutch in on level surface in 1st. Give it alil gas it sometimes rolls forward

So basicly I think I thrashed my 300 dollar clutch. Am going to adjust pedal tomorow after work and bleed system also to see if that helps. Clutch is engaging right off floor


take my effing advice when i rode with you and bleed your damn clutch.....


you got my numbers ill help ya out with that.

celica9303
05-14-2009, 11:59 PM
I am. Bleeding it tomorow if you want to come help its hard to do by yourself

alltracman78
05-15-2009, 01:07 AM
If there's air in the line the clutch won't fully disengage...

celica9303
05-15-2009, 03:51 AM
Yes I'm aware of this , Monty and I are gonna get together. Tomorow to adjust the pedal and bleed the system completly will post back after that is done and let you all know what happened. Thanks for your advise alltracman

celica9303
05-16-2009, 01:33 AM
Well good news Monty and I bleed the clutch (no air). And then adjusted the pedel like stayed above and WOW like like a whole new car thanks guys. This is why this is the only place for celica owners

KoreanJoey
05-16-2009, 05:55 AM
Well good news Monty and I bleed the clutch (no air). And then adjusted the pedel like stayed above and WOW like like a whole new car thanks guys. This is why this is the only place for celica owners

QOTY

celica9303
05-16-2009, 07:35 PM
Huh?