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View Full Version : 5th gen straight4 or V6



dje
04-28-2009, 05:21 AM
summer is comming and tire needs to burn. I've had enought of my 5sfe and look for more power(400-500hp) but i can't make my mind between the 3sgte, the 3sge beam black top,the 3VZ-FE or 4VZ-FE.
I think i'll go with the one i'll be able to find first(or if anyone has suggestions for the power amount i'm looking for i'm open to anything.
My problem goes with the tranny i've seen a lot of post on a lot of forum but i've been unable to fin if there was a 6-speed tranny i could fit on one of those engines.

celica91gts
04-28-2009, 06:00 AM
400 to 500 hp? possible but not easy. you must have deep pockets.

85gtsblackman
04-28-2009, 06:42 AM
eh, buy a 82-85 celica, then swap a 7mgte in it and do mods, id probally be cheaper than obtaining 500hp from a fwd economy v6

dje
04-28-2009, 06:57 AM
ok maybe i forgot to say that target No1 is i think the 5th gen shape has the nicest curves( this debate is not the point of this topic) so i want to keep it. maybe as a future project the 7mgte could be nice to work out :bigthumbu .
The question here is just wich engine would be easier to squeze out this amount of power.
6s has usually more powers than 4s but with the F head on V6 and G head on 4 :wtf: ????
is there any chance a F head won't give me enought airflow for this kind of tuning?

ciento44
04-28-2009, 01:43 PM
Ever driven a 500hp front driver?

3sgte is the only semi-logical choice out of what you provided.

Lonestag
04-28-2009, 02:48 PM
I think if you dropped in a black top BEAMS you would probably have enough power, and you would have an engine that nobody else around has.

It won't get you anywhere close to 300-400hp, but I'm sure it would be quick, responsive, and much better balanced then all those ponies your lusting after.

mr2trd3
04-28-2009, 03:41 PM
Ever driven a 500hp front driver?

This.

I do not think that you have the slightest clue of what will be involved in such a build and how silly the final product will be like. You will be spending north of $8,000 to make 400-500HP in an extremely common, cheap, and econo-oriented platform. IMO, just not worth it.

If you have thousands of dollars burning in your wallet and want a 500HP 5th Gen, my best advice is to buy an Alltrac and send your car to ATS Racing, KO Racing, etc. This route will be much more worthwhile. AT >>> FWD 5th Gen.

However, if you are like most of us (on a limited budget), a more realistic 160-180WHP FWD Celica is more than enough. To achieve this, you can go Camry V6, 3SGTE, or 5SFTE. Pick 3SGTE if you want room to grow. IMHO, if I had an itching for more power in the 5th Gen, I'd stick with 160-180WHP and go V6 or 5SFTE.

ciento44
04-28-2009, 03:53 PM
This.

I do not think that you have the slightest clue of what will be involved in such a build and how silly the final product will be like. You will be spending north of $8,000 to make 400-500HP in an extremely common, cheap, and econo-oriented platform. IMO, just not worth it.

If you have thousands of dollars burning in your wallet and want a 500HP 5th Gen, my best advice is to buy an Alltrac and send your car to ATS Racing, KO Racing, etc. This route will be much more worthwhile. AT >>> FWD 5th Gen.

However, if you are like most of us (on a limited budget), a more realistic 160-180WHP FWD Celica is more than enough. To achieve this, you can go Camry V6, 3SGTE, or 5SFTE. Pick 3SGTE if you want room to grow. IMHO, if I had an itching for more power in the 5th Gen, I'd stick with 160-180WHP and go V6 or 5SFTE.

Yeah, you put it about what i was going for.

I'm a huge hypocrite though. ;)

The main number that you threw out there.... north of $8k. That's JUST for motor work. Minimum. From there, tranny, clutch. (Another.... $1200, figure.) Then for this kind of power, the rest of the car will have to be perfect. New suspension, bushings, endlinks, mounts, etc....

In the end, you have a $15k car that is next to uncontrollable..... If that's your thing, DO go ahead and do it. If you like an easy to drive car, then do not do this.

I'm just special. That is all. I've driven 600+whp civics, and i LOVED every second of it.

celica91gts
04-28-2009, 06:56 PM
you know what a burden it is to have a car that heavily modded to 400-500 hp for an ff car? it will not be enjoyable to drive the only only time you could ever hope to tap into that power is on a long straight away so if your into crazy free way sprints i guess. but city driving is going to suck due to the lag with the huge turbo you use to achieve 400-500. honestly maybe shoot for 250 or 300 hp max? it's enough to shit your pants. it's not all about power. its how much you weigh as well. a boosted celica with 200 hp could beat a mustang with 300 hp. catch my drift? =)

grayscale
04-28-2009, 09:12 PM
I think he's just shooting for the moon guys, just like we all did when we first started, so let's try to keep the criticism constructive.

honestly maybe shoot for 250 or 300 hp max? it's enough to shit your pants. it's not all about power. its how much you weigh as well.
Truest thing said yet. All of the people I've spoken with that have done a 3sgte swap into a fwd Celica are very satisfied with the results.
But more importantly, putting power beyond 300hp to the ground in a fwd Celica is nearly impossible because of the simple fact that parts you need to handle those power levels just aren't available. Example- cv axles. Not saying it can't be done, but the money you have to invest in just those two parts to hold that power is immense.

Carolina91GT-S
04-29-2009, 01:35 AM
important question...

Are you going to do this work yourself? or have it done by a professional?

I have swapped in one 3SGTE, I have a second one that I am about to start rebuilding for my other Celica because I am very happy with the first one. I can't imagine what a 400-500WHP FWD celica would be like...really I think I would agree it would be too much.

Although if I didn't already have all the parts either in hand or on the way then I would be seriously considering doing the 3VZFE swap instead, just because it's cool.

dje
04-29-2009, 05:24 PM
WOW thanks for advices averyone.
now that i conmputed the turbo specs i would need to do this on the 3s i realize it is almost impossible to get a good response with that amount of power on a 4 and trying to keep it a bit fuel economic when not on track the V6 is out of there so the plan is gonna be either a beam blacktop or a gen3or4 3s and taget hp as ben reduce to somewhere around 350.
just a note i am in my last year of ingeneering school (not meaning i know everything)and if a part does not exist there is always a way to make it i know it can get the cost going up in an exponential way but if it worth it.... important thing in the price of something is time spent on desing and i get that part done myself also.

so the project is now moved to a 3S (GE or GTE) swap depending on availability of the blocks around here. Crank it to 300+hp.

the main problem i still have is transmission. is the stock one from the 5SFE going to survive this power? is there a 6-speed i could match it?(juste that 6-speed tranny sounds cool)

mr2trd3
04-29-2009, 06:13 PM
To answer your questions:

1) If going with the 3SGE, your S53 or S54 will work fine. This is actually the same tranny used in JDM land. If going with the 3SGTE, you will need to go with the E153 from the MR2 or Camry/Solara. You will need some hybrid axles to make it work. MR2 inners and Alltrac outers, IIRC.

2) No 6 speed readily available for a cost-efficient and workable conversion. The 5 speed is good enough. Rock solid and geared appropriately for the 3SGTE.

3) If shooting for only 300+HP (I'm assuming ~300whp), your best option is to go with a Gen3 3SGTE. This route will be the cheapest in the long run, most reliable, and have the best driveability. As a rule of thumb, for anything less than 275whp and anything greater than 350whp, stick with a Gen2. For anything in between, go with a Gen3. This is simply from a cost and benefits perspective.

balang_479
04-29-2009, 06:20 PM
WOW thanks for advices averyone.
now that i conmputed the turbo specs i would need to do this on the 3s i realize it is almost impossible to get a good response with that amount of power on a 4 and trying to keep it a bit fuel economic when not on track the V6 is out of there so the plan is gonna be either a beam blacktop or a gen3or4 3s and taget hp as ben reduce to somewhere around 350.
just a note i am in my last year of ingeneering school (not meaning i know everything)and if a part does not exist there is always a way to make it i know it can get the cost going up in an exponential way but if it worth it.... important thing in the price of something is time spent on desing and i get that part done myself also.

so the project is now moved to a 3S (GE or GTE) swap depending on availability of the blocks around here. Crank it to 300+hp.

the main problem i still have is transmission. is the stock one from the 5SFE going to survive this power? is there a 6-speed i could match it?(juste that 6-speed tranny sounds cool)


Never knew 6 speed trannies made different noises...

if you want 300+ hp youll need a well built 3SGTE, i've got a 3SGE but not Beams and they will go unto 200hp on NA, so I can't imagine a Beams going further than 230 or 240hp.

ciento44
04-29-2009, 06:29 PM
To answer your questions:

1) If going with the 3SGE, your S53 or S54 will work fine. This is actually the same tranny used in JDM land. If going with the 3SGTE, you will need to go with the E153 from the MR2 or Camry/Solara. You will need some hybrid axles to make it work. MR2 inners and Alltrac outers, IIRC.

2) No 6 speed readily available for a cost-efficient and workable conversion. The 5 speed is good enough. Rock solid and geared appropriately for the 3SGTE.

3) If shooting for only 300+HP (I'm assuming ~300whp), your best option is to go with a Gen3 3SGTE. This route will be the cheapest in the long run, most reliable, and have the best driveability. As a rule of thumb, for anything less than 275whp and anything greater than 350whp, stick with a Gen2. For anything in between, go with a Gen3. This is simply from a cost and benefits perspective.

IF shooting for 300whp, the S-series trannies will be fine if not abused horribly and every stoplight treated like a tree. We have multiple members that have run the S-series for years.

I'm not doing it, but it IS an option.

Just throwing the rest of the information out there.

mr2trd3
04-29-2009, 08:05 PM
IF shooting for 300whp, the S-series trannies will be fine if not abused horribly and every stoplight treated like a tree. We have multiple members that have run the S-series for years.

I'm not doing it, but it IS an option.

Just throwing the rest of the information out there.

True. The S-series transmission can be used, but the downfall is improper gearing. Far from ideal for use with the 3SGTE.

Carolina91GT-S
04-30-2009, 02:28 AM
funny...just bustin your balls but going into your 4th year of school you should know how to spell Engineering

celica91gts
04-30-2009, 02:42 AM
^tehehe i thought the same thing. but we're just messing with you man.

Hookecho
04-30-2009, 08:04 PM
twin turbo v6 anybody?

grayscale
04-30-2009, 10:01 PM
twin turbo v6 anybody?
Moar room pleez!:D

dje
05-01-2009, 05:40 AM
funny...just bustin your balls but going into your 4th year of school you should know how to spell Engineering

No problem (also that english is not my first language )

Grot
05-01-2009, 05:58 AM
just curious, you location is "Mtl"

may i ask where that is?

METDeath
05-01-2009, 06:17 AM
3S-GTE swap (gen 3) with an E153+LSD transmission. Should be good up until you shit your pants when you start modifying the motor.

I'm looking at a gen 2 3S-GTE swap with the above transmission, then when I get used to that, do a gen 3 conversion on the gen 2 motor.

Grot
05-01-2009, 06:28 AM
why waste the time and money to do gen 2 if your going to eventually go to gen 3?

dje
05-01-2009, 07:09 AM
just curious, you location is "Mtl"

may i ask where that is?
Montréal Qc, Canada

Grot
05-01-2009, 07:31 AM
so french is your native language?

dje
05-01-2009, 09:05 AM
To answer your questions:


3) If shooting for only 300+HP (I'm assuming ~300whp), your best option is to go with a Gen3 3SGTE. This route will be the cheapest in the long run, most reliable, and have the best driveability. As a rule of thumb, for anything less than 275whp and anything greater than 350whp, stick with a Gen2. For anything in between, go with a Gen3. This is simply from a cost and benefits perspective.


Do you have anymore info on that ? is this related to the TVIS system? or....?

dje
05-01-2009, 11:18 AM
so french is your native language?
exactly

mr2trd3
05-01-2009, 02:29 PM
why waste the time and money to do gen 2 if your going to eventually go to gen 3?


Do you have anymore info on that ? is this related to the TVIS system? or....?

1) Why should you go with Gen2 if you plan to stay at 275whp or less?

It's cheaper. The fairly stock Gen2 will get you to 275whp safely and cheaply (CT20b or CT27, ROM tune or piggybacks, IC, minor fuel system mods, MBC, etc.). This route will be significantly cheaper than going the Gen3 swap for power levels under 275whp.

2) Why go with Gen 3 if your goal is just 275whp-350whp?

It's cheaper. To get the Gen2 into this power level (on regular/steet fuel, no meth, no race fuel, etc), it will cost you a significant amount of money (turbo upgrade, fuel system upgrade, EMS, etc). These power levels are easily achievable on a stock Gen3 (just a turbo upgrade away) due to increased fuel system capacity and better electronics.

*Note: I'm obviously leaving out some important items such as IC, clutch, etc. because in both cases, these upgrades will be needed.

3) Why go with Gen2 if you are shooting for the moon?

At this point, you will need to do fuel system upgrade and electronics (upgrade to EMS) on the Gen3 just like you would need to do with the Gen2. With these power goals, the Gen2 and Gen3 are on the same playing level, but the Gen3 will cost you $1500+ more. This money can be used to do cams, intake manifold, etc on the Gen2 for significant gains.

Most importantly, Gen2 blocks are less prone to cracking at these power levels compared to the thin-walled Gen3 blocks (excluding the last revision, 98+, IIRC).

fibrewizard
05-17-2009, 05:21 PM
twin turbo v6 anybody?


this has been done...............

dude i talk to in the states has twin toyota supra turbos pushing over 380hp on stock internals...........3vz-fe twin turbs.........very nice.....and another avenue to look into..........


i am in the middle of a v6 conversion yet to drive it as a little work still needs to be done...............will post up details when finished.........

dje
05-18-2009, 07:40 PM
this has been done...............

dude i talk to in the states has twin toyota supra turbos pushing over 380hp on stock internals...........3vz-fe twin turbs.........very nice.....and another avenue to look into..........


i am in the middle of a v6 conversion yet to drive it as a little work still needs to be done...............will post up details when finished.........

it is actually your tread that made me start to esitate between the 3S or V6 but i've seen your pics and got no idee where the 2 turbos will go. Can't wait to see it in there

fibrewizard
05-19-2009, 06:17 AM
it is actually your tread that made me start to esitate between the 3S or V6 but i've seen your pics and got no idee where the 2 turbos will go. Can't wait to see it in there


http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5583/twinturbs3vz.th.png (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=twinturbs3vz.png)http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1176/3vztwinturbo.th.png (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3vztwinturbo.png)sorry the pics are a tad small.... click on em to enlarge..... will take you to my imageshack.us hosting to see all pics of my build............

the lad that owns this celica is currently running 7.5 psi on stock internals and over 380hp....... also still has stock celica 5 speed gearbox

dje
05-19-2009, 07:09 AM
nice job. ok battery was moved now i see where a part of the place came from!!