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View Full Version : 5s-fe in a 4th gen?



theorhetoric
03-13-2009, 01:44 AM
I am thinking of doing this swap when my 2s finally goes..I'm not really looking for power more as I am looking for reliability and ease of sourcing parts. Ialso know it would proally be easier if I had the 3s. So what do you guys think? I'm not sure I have even seen one done before..

I know that the wiring is proally going to be the main hassle but are there other things that I may want to lookout for besides the obvious?

RedRkt01
03-13-2009, 01:39 PM
Yeah....the wiring is going to be a bit of a hassle if I'm not mistaken. Given that hurdle, why not go for something more powerful? ESPECIALLY, since you'll be doing that work anyway?

85gtsblackman
03-13-2009, 06:10 PM
cause he wants a daily reliable car

RedRkt01
03-13-2009, 06:55 PM
cause he wants a daily reliable car

Are you implying that something other than a 5SFE wouldn't be reliable?

EDIT: I don't think he needs to get some monster engine or anything....just that he shouldn't have to settle.....

theorhetoric
03-13-2009, 10:42 PM
Are you implying that something other than a 5SFE wouldn't be reliable?

EDIT: I don't think he needs to get some monster engine or anything....just that he shouldn't have to settle.....

well I've been reading alot about all the swaps and I want something that is reliable, easy to source parts and fairly easy to work on as I don't have a big toolchest. I want to turn 500,000 on the odometer on this car and I"m not so sure that a 3s-gte will get me there on my insanely limited income. Also I'm almost oblivious when it comes to turbo systems so I'm sure that is a part of it as well..

What would u suggest Red a 3s-ge? I would proally just buy a 4th gen gts if that's what I wanted..

I don't want to come off as sounding bitchy I appreciate any and all comments on the issue I just wanted to give my thinking behind it..

METDeath
03-13-2009, 10:45 PM
I know the 5S-fe drops right in to the 3s-fe no wiring at all.

I could have sworn I posted this earlier though... so grab a cheap 5s harness and 2s harness and compare them (the engine harnesses should be sufficient).

RedRkt01
03-14-2009, 12:48 AM
I wouldn't necessarily suggest a 3SGTE. I don't think that's for you given what you need it for. But I would suggest a 3SGE. A second or third Gen, that is.....which can't be bought in a 4th Gen GTS. And no, I don't think you sound bitchy.

theorhetoric
03-14-2009, 12:20 PM
I wouldn't necessarily suggest a 3SGTE. I don't think that's for you given what you need it for. But I would suggest a 3SGE. A second or third Gen, that is.....which can't be bought in a 4th Gen GTS. And no, I don't think you sound bitchy.


well then I guess my gripe with the 3sge is going to be 1)cost and 2) the damn thing is not very easy to work on. and are parts going to be hard to find for such a new generation?

usp45
03-14-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't see how a 3sge is harder to work on than a 5sfe. But I do think a 5sfe is sufficient and viable for your application.

How many miles on your 2s? ya don't see many of those turds kickin around anymore lol.

RedRkt01
03-14-2009, 05:11 PM
well then I guess my gripe with the 3sge is going to be 1)cost and 2) the damn thing is not very easy to work on. and are parts going to be hard to find for such a new generation?

I'm with ups45 on how hard it is to work on the 3SGE versus the 5SFE.....huh? An S series is an S series. If one is hard then they're all hard IMO. And I don't really have muc problem sourcing parts for my 3SGE......KJ disagrees to some degree, but I've had no headaches at all. I know of one going for $900 + shipping.

METDeath
03-14-2009, 05:53 PM
3s-gte with WTA intercooler is a little harder to work on I'd imagine.... but otherwise, the non turbo S blocks are all fairly easy to work on.

RedRkt01
03-14-2009, 07:44 PM
3s-gte with WTA intercooler is a little harder to work on I'd imagine.... but otherwise, the non turbo S blocks are all fairly easy to work on.

I would argue that the degree of difficulty is relative to the person performing the tasks. In reality, the constant about any 3SGTE compared to the rest of the S series is that there is just more "stuff". I made the transition from a 3SFE to a 3SGTE just fine..... I haven't disassembled and reassembled EVERYTHING, but in terms of having a working knowledge and some knowhow I've had an easy enough time.

Theo, if you have decent enough tools to work on a 5SFE, then IMO you'll really be okay working on any of these engines. I guess I just see things a bit more black and white than others.

T-spoon
03-14-2009, 08:09 PM
The black and white of it is, most 5sfes will require oil changes and random loooong term things like an occasional motor mount. This simply isn't the case with the higher performance engines. I have never touched a car so EASY to do everything on as the 6th gen I had with a 5s. Honestly if the swap is not too difficult, I think it's a great choice for a DD motor. I've always said that and I believe it. The power band of the 5sfe is perfect for city traffic. As boring as the motor is from an upgrade and high performance stand point, it was an increadibly good anchor for Toyota's 90's dominance.

METDeath
03-14-2009, 08:41 PM
I would argue that the degree of difficulty is relative to the person performing the tasks. In reality, the constant about any 3SGTE compared to the rest of the S series is that there is just more "stuff". I made the transition from a 3SFE to a 3SGTE just fine..... I haven't disassembled and reassembled EVERYTHING, but in terms of having a working knowledge and some knowhow I've had an easy enough time.

Theo, if you have decent enough tools to work on a 5SFE, then IMO you'll really be okay working on any of these engines. I guess I just see things a bit more black and white than others.

I'm thinking more from the stand point of daily driver and doing the related maintenance on it, having to drain and refill the WTA just to change the spark plugs would get old fast to me...

theorhetoric
03-14-2009, 09:31 PM
I don't see how a 3sge is harder to work on than a 5sfe. But I do think a 5sfe is sufficient and viable for your application.

How many miles on your 2s? ya don't see many of those turds kickin around
anymore lol.


Well I helped a friend do some work to his GTS a while back and there was not alot of room to do anything..But that was a 1st gen ge so I may be mistaken..I'm not too familar with a 2nd or 3rd gen ge..

I may be completly off base tho that is one of the reasons for this thread. I want to make the most informed decision I can.. Realistically tho no kinda swap will be happening for quite a while. I couldn't even begin to afford it in my current situation.

oh and the 2s has around 245,000 on it,with almost 65,000 on a rebuild..

theorhetoric
03-14-2009, 09:33 PM
The black and white of it is, most 5sfes will require oil changes and random loooong term things like an occasional motor mount. This simply isn't the case with the higher performance engines. I have never touched a car so EASY to do everything on as the 6th gen I had with a 5s. Honestly if the swap is not too difficult, I think it's a great choice for a DD motor. I've always said that and I believe it. The power band of the 5sfe is perfect for city traffic. As boring as the motor is from an upgrade and high performance stand point, it was an increadibly good anchor for Toyota's 90's dominance.


thank you for putting everything I was thinking into words properly for me..

RedRkt01
03-14-2009, 10:33 PM
The black and white of it is, most 5sfes will require oil changes and random loooong term things like an occasional motor mount. This simply isn't the case with the higher performance engines. I have never touched a car so EASY to do everything on as the 6th gen I had with a 5s. Honestly if the swap is not too difficult, I think it's a great choice for a DD motor. I've always said that and I believe it. The power band of the 5sfe is perfect for city traffic. As boring as the motor is from an upgrade and high performance stand point, it was an increadibly good anchor for Toyota's 90's dominance.

Point taken. But what I see as more black or white was whether you have the tools and knowhow to perform a job. I agree also with Death about the PITA factor......cuz its def there.

Theo, it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

theorhetoric
03-14-2009, 11:24 PM
Point taken. But what I see as more black or white was whether you have the tools and knowhow to perform a job. I agree also with Death about the PITA factor......cuz its def there.

Theo, it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

actually no..you have compelling arguments and who knows what my situation will be when I get ready to do it.. I may be able to afford/have more tools/know how by then..I'm just trying to get more info than I actually need. I really wanna keep this car for a long time so we'll see what happens..

RedRkt01
03-14-2009, 11:46 PM
I really wanna keep this car for a long time

I hear that.......keep it alive! Go 4th Gens!

Kiasis
03-16-2009, 08:39 PM
I'm just finishing up my 3SGE rebuild (it had 200,000 miles and wasn't treated kindly before I got it) starting from a completely ignorant position - nothing but oil jobs, spark plugs, etc. With the knoweldge of the folks on this website, the BGB and the right tools, it's been quite easy and I don't see any difference between engines.

I don't think you'll find any of these engines give you more rooom to work in. Maybe the old 2SFE, but I don't know - more importantly, who cares!

I've had no problem getting parts for my 1st gen 3SGE. However, if you move up to a 2nd gen or beyond, the simple fact that the engine was never imported into the U.S. means you'll have to search harder and probably pay more for parts.

For a DD, I also don't think there's any reliability difference between the 3SGE and the 3/5SFE. But finding a decent, more recent 5SFE should be easier than finding a decent 3SGE, unless you're planning to rebuild whatever you source anyway.

You can't go wrong w/ the 5SFE. The one in my Camry is at 210,000 miles and still very strong. The HP on the 5S and the 1st gen 3SGE is the same. I don't know if you're adding more weight w/ the 5S, although it stands to reason you might be and it may change the handling characteristics some (if that matters to you).

I love the high RPM pull of the 3SGE's TVIS, but if you're fine w/ the slightly more mundane performance of the 5SFE, you can't go wrong with that engine. I plan on getting another 300,000 out of my '99 Camry w/ nothing but regular, routine maintenance (and hope for the same with my rebuilt 3SGE - although I will drive it much harder since I also upgraded suspension and brakes... and it's a Celica).

RedRkt01
03-16-2009, 09:19 PM
I've had no problem getting parts for my 1st gen 3SGE. However, if you move up to a 2nd gen or beyond, the simple fact that the engine was never imported into the U.S. means you'll have to search harder and probably pay more for parts.

Not true. 90%+ of my parts came from my local dealer. Once you learn the ropes on where/how to look for what you need it is suprising easy to find what you need.

Kiasis
03-17-2009, 05:06 AM
Really? The non-U.S. 3SGEs have that many parts in common with other U.S. Toyota engines? Makes sense, I guess. My bad. Sorry.

RedRkt01
03-17-2009, 01:08 PM
Really? The non-U.S. 3SGEs have that many parts in common with other U.S. Toyota engines? Makes sense, I guess. My bad. Sorry.

No worries, you just assumed (like everyone else) that it they are totally different animals.

CollapsedNut
02-04-2010, 08:30 PM
[QUOTE=METDeath;30004143]I know the 5S-fe drops right in to the 3s-fe no wiring at all.QUOTE]

Is this teh troof?
*Thread REZ*

METDeath
02-05-2010, 01:30 AM
[QUOTE=METDeath;30004143]I know the 5S-fe drops right in to the 3s-fe no wiring at all.QUOTE]

Is this teh troof?
*Thread REZ*

If not, it's close enough that no one called me on it. I think you have to keep your 3S-FE sensors or something... I'm not entirely sure.

CollapsedNut
02-05-2010, 01:34 AM
Good to know. Im formulating a plan.

CriScO
02-06-2010, 12:33 AM
The big thing is that you'll have to keep the 3S intake tube and AFM. Distributor wiring is different as I recall. Other than that it shouldn't be much of an issue. The earlier the block the better.

On another topic, re-reading this thread is annoying me. There was never a 2S-FE. The 2S in both Camry and Celica was a 2S-E, single cam. Niether had a twin-cam F head.

85gtsblackman
02-06-2010, 05:20 AM
remember the 1st 5sfe is pretty much a 3sfe thats bored and stroked