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View Full Version : Fried something (I'm sure) on my Alltrac



RedRkt01
02-02-2009, 02:25 PM
So my Alltrac has been sitting for awhile and I decided it was time to tidy it up a bit. I pulled the battery and took it to the local parts store to replace it. I came back with a new battery in hand and some water remover for the fuel that has been sitting.

When I reinstalled the battery I must've done so backwards. The previous owner had run amuck with wiring and various other shotty work. At some point the red boot cover had been removed so I had no idea which terminal was which. I had to go on what I remembered from my ST162. I did so and after the connections were made for about 2-3 seconds a small amount of smoke rose from the main fuse box next to the battery. Specifically, it came from the end that has the 4 or 5 heavy duty fuses (the one I remember being included amongst these was the 100A ALT). I rearranged the battery.

Now I know something has to be fried. You can't really check relays. So I checked all the fuses and they all seem to be ok. None of them are melted through.

I get in the driver's seat. Turn the key to the ON position (beep, beep, beep.....). Clock on, door lights on, fuel pump buzzing for a few seconds, I cycled the headlights, fog lights on, checked the rest of the exterior lights, horn. These are all good. Disengage the clutch....turn key....nothing. No starter, no nothing. The only activity I get is that the tach twitches to about 50 RPM when electricity is sent through the start sequence.

I bridged the connectors. ECU shows code 1, normal. I don't know if it is because of the extended period where it had no juice, but last time the engine was run it was coughing up codes for the IC level sensor and the knock sensor. Now it shows nothing. I suppose this might be normal.

The only thing I can think of to remedy this problem is replace the relays. The Head relay, the EFI Main relay, and the other big one I can't remember that sits in that box.

Any suggestions? Anything I'm missing? What should I assume are the ramifications of this stupid, ridiculous error?

RedRkt01
02-02-2009, 04:08 PM
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andy
02-02-2009, 04:34 PM
somtimes starters will stick closed. do your lights dim when you try the starter. If so you should get a hammer or something and tap that starter a few times to free up the solenoid. That should do it. Otherwise you have definatly shorted some wires. check the fusable links.

Murgatroy
02-02-2009, 04:47 PM
I am voting for the relays being fried.

RedRkt01
02-02-2009, 05:11 PM
I have a rubber mallet. I'll give the starter a rap.....if I can get to it. It's covered by all kinds of shit.

Murg: you're probably right....what else smokes inside a fuse box when all the fuses are fine? = Relays.

MrWOT
02-02-2009, 07:05 PM
I've had the wiring on the bottom (fuse connectors) smoke before, that was a joy to find :squint:

Lots of corrosion on 4g wiring by now. Mine was awful.

RedRkt01
02-02-2009, 08:43 PM
I've had the wiring on the bottom (fuse connectors) smoke before, that was a joy to find :squint:

Lots of corrosion on 4g wiring by now. Mine was awful.

So what all did you have to swap out?

MrWOT
02-02-2009, 08:49 PM
Swap? I just spliced in a new length of wire and new terminals. Start probing for resistance and voltage.

maxwedge
02-03-2009, 02:14 AM
I did the exact same thing to mine a while back trying to replace the battery in the dark without a flashlight wound up I had blown a couple fusibles and the IGN fuse, charred some insulation, nothing major, but it took a few hours to figure out because one of the fuseables didn't look blown at all. As was said, get a voltmeter and start checking for voltage and continuity.

joe's gt
02-03-2009, 02:32 AM
Multimeter is your friend. Like Rob said, just because the fuse isn't blown doesn't mean the wires to it aren't fried. Are you sure u didn't damage your battery to a point where it doesn't crank the starter. A battery can sometimes be healthy enough to power your accessories, but might not be healthy enough to turn the motor over.

RedRkt01
02-03-2009, 03:37 AM
Brand new battery was installed backwards for no more than 2-3 seconds. Batt Life should be a problem.

joe's gt
02-03-2009, 04:40 AM
I touched my positive terminal to the metal hold down (which was grounded), for no more than a few seconds and it completely fried my battery. An electric field travels at the speed of light, so 2-3 seconds is a life time. Might as well check and rule it out. Like I said, I had a battery that was healthy enough to power my accessories but couldn't turn over the motor, even with a charge.

Fox 21 Alpha
02-03-2009, 06:22 AM
Could maybe jump your starter right from the terminals too to make sure that works. Though not sure how well that will work on a 4th gen with the clutch safety switch and stuff....should be aight in theory......damn cars are so new nowadays.....

RedRkt01
02-04-2009, 08:17 PM
Could maybe jump your starter right from the terminals too to make sure that works. Though not sure how well that will work on a 4th gen with the clutch safety switch and stuff....should be aight in theory......damn cars are so new nowadays.....

Ok....um....so how do I do that? Am I supposed to ground the starter directly to the negative terminal?

I need some serious help, cuz this thing needs to be running NOW! I blew a head gasket in my DD and now I am 0/3 in cars that run.

RedRkt01
02-05-2009, 02:08 AM
So I changed all the relays in the main fuse box. Nothing happened. The starter still doesn't even click. I'd bang on it with a rubber mallet, but there is all that shit in the wat that I'd have to remove to even get at it.....then I'd have to put it all back on to get the engine to start. I guess I could replace the starter relay in the driver kickpanel......

I need this thing up and running ASAP......since I blew a head gasket today in my DD. Any more suggestions on what to do?

Grot
02-05-2009, 02:50 AM
I didnt read all of the posts. Did you have your battery tested?

RedRkt01
02-05-2009, 02:54 AM
Yeah.....that's not it. This isn't a power supply problem. This is a "I fried some shit WITH the power" kinda problem.

joe's gt
02-05-2009, 03:16 AM
If ecu works, no fuses blown, and all relays relating to the starting circuit have been replaced, then you've pretty much narrowed it down to fried wires or a faulty starter. The BGB has a test procedure for the starter, otherwise, all you could do is probe resistances.

Grot
02-05-2009, 03:19 AM
all i can figure is you melted some wires, i had the same symptoms when my microwave fried some wires in my house, little plume of smoke came out my dimmer switch.

If you havent already, inspect the wires around said fusebox for melting, breakage, etc.

RedRkt01
02-05-2009, 03:21 AM
all i can figure is you melted some wires, i had the same symptoms when my microwave fried some wires in my house, little plume of smoke came out my dimmer switch.

If you havent already, inspect the wires around said fusebox for melting, breakage, etc.

Suppose you guys are right and it is the wires. How do I replace that shit?

I don't know shit about wiring......well almost nothing anyway.

Grot
02-05-2009, 03:22 AM
if you find the culprit, just splice the section out and insert a new section. nothing terribly hard, will be a quick fix until you can get ur HG replaced on ur DD

RedRkt01
02-05-2009, 03:27 AM
Fuck the DD.....I've been neglecting to finish the Celicas for far too long as it is. Well I hope it is just a wire or two so that I don't have to splice in a whole bunch....that'll really piss me off. I'm gonna sell this Alltrac anyway; I have another in mind. I'd like to do as little work on this one as I can.

Grot
02-05-2009, 03:29 AM
Splice in the wire and put some heatshrink over it and call it done if your just gonna flip it.

RedRkt01
02-05-2009, 03:34 AM
I wouldn't call it a true flip........I'll be pricing it to take a loss. $1500 for an '88.

Shadowlife25
02-05-2009, 09:21 AM
Suppose you guys are right and it is the wires. How do I replace that shit?

I don't know shit about wiring......well almost nothing anyway.

Match wire gauges, slide heatshrink over the wires, solder, slide heatshrink over solder joint, apply heat, and done! ;)

Most important thing is to match the wire gauge and have a secure connection.

RedRkt01
02-08-2009, 12:31 AM
Replaced fusible links. Replaced a bunch of relays. I checked all the fuses. I banged on the starter. IT CRANKS MOTHA FUCKAS!!! That is one step closer to where I need to be. No fried wires. Didn't even have to start checking continuity.

Mario........does your army need recruits?

Grot
02-08-2009, 12:56 AM
Grats, hope you get 'er runnin soon

RedRkt01
02-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Grats, hope you get 'er runnin soon

Thanks.....it's good to know a fellow 4th Gener cares.

Now that I know she'll fire....I have to get her towed to my garage where I can take the intake manifold off and do a bunch of work on her. Hopefully I can drive her by Wednesday. I also have to call a locksmith because the driver's lock won't budge......but that's not that big a deal.

Grot
02-08-2009, 02:45 AM
Forget the locksmith. roll down the window and do it dukes of hazard style.

joe's gt
02-08-2009, 05:14 AM
Good to hear. When I shorted my battery it started a little fire in my engine compartment. lol. no major damage tho.

what did you mean when you said "banged" on the starter?

edit: nvm, i just read the earlier posts and found out what you meant. I didn't know a bang on a solenoid could free it up. Good for future reference. Glad you got it resolved. It is always very scary when you short your battery.

CriScO
02-08-2009, 09:23 AM
Thanks.....it's good to know a fellow 4th Gener cares.
What? I'm watching! :)

The responses to this were very good, I had nothing to add. :bigthumbu

RedRkt01
02-08-2009, 02:15 PM
:sneak: Ha Chris.......I know you're always lurking

RedRkt01
02-08-2009, 02:16 PM
Forget the locksmith. roll down the window and do it dukes of hazard style.

I tried. I got stuck.

RedRkt01
06-01-2009, 12:54 AM
The ST165 still won't fucking start.

I did the starter relay trick and nothing happened. I even hooked it all up and tested it with the starter sitting on top of the engine so I could see the gear move. Nothing. I tried it with a second starter. Nothing. I'm getting so pissed. I seriously need to move this car out of my way and preferably into someone else's garage (via sale). I can't even sell it for $1000. No one will take this thing from me. AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

Any suggestions?

Shadowlife25
06-01-2009, 12:59 AM
Can you do a quick little MS Paint diagram of exactly how you wired in your started relay? It sounds like that may be the issue if it at least cranked before.

I will admit now that I have not completely read through this thread yet. I will. :)

RedRkt01
06-01-2009, 01:13 AM
Check this out Mario:

http://st162.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=236

That is the fix-it for 4th Gen guys. It works 99% of the time when you turn the key and nothing happens. I thought for sure this would end my troubles. Now it seems they're only beginning.

........be back in a few hours. Gotta go to a RRP&D website meeting.

Shadowlife25
06-01-2009, 01:26 AM
Seems straight forward enough. Test for voltage on the wires going INTO the relay.
If you're good there, it's either one of a couple things, bad relay or wires are not connected to the correct pins on the relay.

RedRkt01
06-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Seems straight forward enough. Test for voltage on the wires going INTO the relay.
If you're good there, it's either one of a couple things, bad relay or wires are not connected to the correct pins on the relay.

While I haven't checked the voltage, I can hear it click when power is applied. And I checked, double checked and triple checked the wiring to make sure that I did it right.

MrWOT
06-01-2009, 05:03 PM
No one will take this thing from me.

Any suggestions?

Give car to WOT? :D

That diagram is correct, so try running your ground to b- to make sure it's good, and test input voltage like mario said.

theorhetoric
06-02-2009, 03:58 PM
or just take the relay out?

RedRkt01
06-02-2009, 05:06 PM
or just take the relay out?

Uh....I'm not sure what that would solve.

alistair
06-23-2009, 06:35 AM
I think he means bypass the relay and wire the circuit so it's always on, which isn't advisable.

So where do you stand right now

The car cranks but doesn't fire up? Your starter only works intermittantly?

When I was trying to get my 165 going, I dropped in a new battery and kept trying to get it to turn over and eventually it just stopped working. Interior lights, etc. still worked but it wouldn't even try and crank. Turns out I drained just enough juice from the battery to prevent the starter from working.

If your car *was* cranking but isn't anymore, I would hook your battery up to a trickle charger, or use the charger to jump start it if it has that option. Make sure you still have enough power going to it before troubleshooting stuff.

Also, when your cranking, does your clock go black? if so, you probably don't have enough amp's in which case, charge yer damn battery!

Hope this helps, Good luck bud!

Freshnicity
06-23-2009, 07:26 AM
I think he means bypass the relay and wire the circuit so it's always on, which isn't advisable.

So where do you stand right now

The car cranks but doesn't fire up? Your starter only works intermittantly?

When I was trying to get my 165 going, I dropped in a new battery and kept trying to get it to turn over and eventually it just stopped working. Interior lights, etc. still worked but it wouldn't even try and crank. Turns out I drained just enough juice from the battery to prevent the starter from working.

If your car *was* cranking but isn't anymore, I would hook your battery up to a trickle charger, or use the charger to jump start it if it has that option. Make sure you still have enough power going to it before troubleshooting stuff.

Also, when your cranking, does your clock go black? if so, you probably don't have enough amp's in which case, charge yer damn battery!

Hope this helps, Good luck bud!

That happens because each battery has a limit.

Cold Cranking Amps, how many times you can supposedly cold crank it without it dieing out.

Try charging it like he said.