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MR2Guru
01-21-2009, 11:04 PM
This is by no means breaking news, but the rumors of the Toyobaru AE86 and GT-Four revivals seem to have resurfaced.


http://www.themotorreport.com.au/3610/more-ae86-news-and-gt-four-could-ride-again/

AND I just aspirated the vomit I threw up in my mouth. It will be no Toyota, but a bit of a flagship for the Toyota/Subaru cahoots. Toyota says (and I quote), "...with Subaru's cost-effective drivetrain...."; i.e. they were too cheap to make something durable, powerful OR reliable. Needless to say, I am sorely disappointed that they have considered the revival of two Toyota's prodigious cars just to abominate them with the Subaru curse.
(No offense to Scooby guys)

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/10560/toyota-rwd-coupe-hits-development-troubles/
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/4679/rumours-subarus-new-sports-car-to-come-in-rwd-flavou r-only/

IF Toyota brings a falsely badged GT-Four Subaru with an inferior drivetrain and sub-par performance I will be utterly disgusted. In the case this happens, they will just throw some curves on an Impreza or Legacy and call it a GT-Four. On that note, with Subaru falling out of WRC and other economic "white-flag acts" going on around the world; I doubt this will be a hard-pressed endeavor.


http://www.themotorreport.com.au/15566/uh-oh-toyobaru-fr-coupe-delayed-beyond-2012/


I have been angry with Toyota since the rumor began back in 2005, from the point there were glimmers of hints that Subaru would be of a great influence in the project. They intended to bring the GT-Four and a RWD Corolla GTS rendition back to their starving sport compact line-up, due to popular demand. THIS I thought was a tremendously great idea, as I had thought they finally realized the late 80's to 90's sports cars they unleashed upon us had started a trend for Toyota to hold the bar high in both performance and reliability; one I had hoped they would stick to.


My All Trac's 1994 WRC 3SGTE had 265hp from the factory, and yet still in 2004 an Impreza WRX came with a less-than-par 227hp. You would think in nearly 10 years that their technology may have advanced a bit? The SRT-4 got similar power ratings, which was just enough to stay an inch ahead of the WRX. Honestly, weight was the only thing saving the SRT, and its equally pathetic transmission. (The winner of that race is the guy that still has one gear left.) Now there is the Cobalt SS Turbo, still hardly any better (if at all) than the rest of what is out there and will soon take its number to reveal its Achilles Heel. Even Toyota has failed us, calling the Scion their "sport compact tuner" line when I know they are beyond capable of high horsepower, clean emission, economic engines.


The new GT-R is a little less of a disappointment than most of us expected since she still is all-wheel-drive twin turbo, but has the same problem she always did; overpriced. Although its technology commands such a dollar, its market lies in a much lower class. The middle-class man that has dreamed of importing finally gets a US Legal Skyline only to find that his annual $75k salary won't cover a new GT-R when he has a mortgage.


Toyota has the ability to not only continue to steal, but molest the market. All they have to do is bring back a REAL Toyota and unleash it for a reasonably persuasive price. In doing this, they will monopolize and control the streets we call our pissing-grounds.

Ghosty
01-21-2009, 11:31 PM
Cars, especially sport compacts, have always been a matter of compromise. We typically loose FR performance for FF economy. Suspension is a compromise between satisfying soccer moms and speed freaks. The engine is the same deal, although neither the soccer mom nor the speed freak wants less performance.

Obviously, it's a tricky task to suit a car to a purpose. But what is certain is that you can't half-ass a car and expect a winner. It's especially important not to half-ass a car that's supposed to be a revival into the market you forsake almost a decade ago.

Clearly the mashup that is Toybaru is making a lot of compromises that puts this car at risk.

You mentioned your last-gen 3SGTE. That was a hell of an engine. Toyota missed a big opportunity to sell that 3SGTE-powered Caldina GT4 in the states. Every WRX, Legacy GT, Forrester, STi, and ESPECIALLY the WRX hatch... that was a potential Caldina GT4 buyer. But no, Toyota in their infinite wisdom decided to let go of a market it easily could have conquered.

cms-gt4
01-22-2009, 12:32 AM
Last I read is that the 2011 TC will be the RWD subaru. Toyota also pushed the project back and it was on possible (eternal) hold.

Toyota knows how to make money. They are now #1 for the total sales of 2008 and they even announced last year that they are not interested in niche markets because there is no money in them, hence the scrapping of the LFA.

Hiko
01-22-2009, 12:53 AM
Toyota says (and I quote), "...with Subaru's cost-effective drivetrain...."; i.e. they were too cheap to make something durable, powerful OR reliable. Needless to say, I am sorely disappointed that they have considered the revival of two Toyota's prodigious cars just to abominate them with the Subaru curse.
(No offense to Scooby guys)

In the big scheme of things, developing new engines is expensive. Making either company spend a good amount of money on the engine decreases the possibility of the car ever happening. I do want the ae86 revival to come about some day, so I will take a carried over engine (though I do still balk at the idea of a boxer as it is a Subaru tradition).

My only other thing to say on that subject is that, while I've not been keeping my ear to the ground, I've not heard anything bad about Subaru engines past the old head gasket bit. As far as power goes, I think they do just fine with the emissions and warranty restrictions they have.


IF Toyota brings a falsely badged GT-Four Subaru....they will just throw some curves on an Impreza or Legacy and call it a GT-Four.

Most likely they'll change the wheelbase and a few little things to accommodate being a two-door, but for the most part, I bet you're right. But again, if Toyota had to do most of the engineering, it would add price to getting the car started, and probably hinder it ever happening.


My All Trac's 1994 WRC 3SGTE had 265hp from the factory, and yet still in 2004 an Impreza WRX came with a less-than-par 227hp. You would think in nearly 10 years that their technology may have advanced a bit?

Apples and oranges. The price of the 1993 GT-4 in japan was <2,691,000 yen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica_GT-Four) (and I doubt the st205 was any cheaper). The price of a 2002 WRX in Japan was ~2,451,000 yen (http://subaru-impreza-wrx.info/specs/2002.11/27616/), but note this does not take inflation into account. So the WRX you're comparing was significantly cheaper than the GT-4. You (mostly) get what you pay for.


Now there is the Cobalt SS Turbo, still hardly any better (if at all) than the rest of what is out there

Actually, it is faster around a track than the EVO X and 08 STi. Hell, it's faster than an IS-F! (All statements based on testing in 11/08 Car and Driver) And it costs $24k, which is >$10k less than the 08 STi, the next cheapest of the three, and >$34k less than the IS-F. But as to this cars relevance to the topic, I can't see it.


Even Toyota has failed us, calling the Scion their "sport compact tuner" line

Which is why I think it would be a great idea for them to badge the AE86 redo as a Scion. What better car to bear the standard of cheap and fun?



The new GT-R is a little less of a disappointment than most of us expected since she still is all-wheel-drive twin turbo, but has the same problem she always did; overpriced.

Another car that seems irrelevant to a Toybaru rant. But I do have to say that I think you miss a couple of points with the GT-R. One is that its selling point is in its price per dollar compared to the M3 and Z06. Just look at the Top gear track times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_in_a_Reasonably-Priced_Car#Star_in_a_Reasonably-Priced_Car). While by no means the end-all-be-all of comparisons, the trend shows that the GT-R out performs cars that cost much more than it.


Although its technology commands such a dollar, its market lies in a much lower class. The middle-class man that has dreamed of importing finally gets a US Legal Skyline only to find that his annual $75k salary won't cover a new GT-R when he has a mortgage.

That's why the GT-R is considered a 'Halo' car for Nissan. The problem you describe applies to all Halo models, although the Nissan is the cheapest of them. Look at the MKIV Supra, that was a halo model for Toyota, and cost $52k (http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/sticker/95_turbo_sticker.jpg) in 1995. That doesn't sound too bad, but inflation adjusted makes it ~$71k in 2007 dollars (couldn't find a newer calculator). So back when the MKIV came out, the same dilemma applied to it as now applies to the GT-R.



Toyota has the ability to not only continue to steal, but molest the market. All they have to do is bring back a REAL Toyota and unleash it for a reasonably persuasive price. In doing this, they will monopolize and control the streets we call our pissing-grounds.

I agree that Toyota can do a lot better, and do not need the help of Subaru (Yamaha on the other hand...). But just because a competing car might wear a Toyota badge does not make it better. Even if Toyota made, by themselves, a new GT-4, it still might suck. And if it did, I would have to call that fact.

Respect a car for what it is, not the badge placed on it.

burnyd
01-22-2009, 12:58 AM
I dont have the time to page through this thread but honestly why are you crying about this?

the fact that a gt fourish vehicle in america is awesome! Look at the Tbelt cover on your 3sgte your going to find a name stamped right on it that does not say toyota!

Ghosty
01-22-2009, 01:42 AM
the fact that a gt fourish vehicle in america is awesome! Look at the Tbelt cover on your 3sgte your going to find a name stamped right on it that does not say toyota!

Does it say Yamaha?

GT4SOM
01-22-2009, 03:25 AM
Does it say Yamaha?
Yes, I think they designed the head on the 3s. (correct me if I'm wrong.) I think I would be happy if we got a worthy awd/fwd car that was badged Toyota. We usually have shared platforms in the past(I.E. Matrix/Vibe). I like the idea of the AE86 revival but I would be pissed if Toyota brought back the GT4 with a stupid Subaru engine (Performance isn't the problem) because since the 165, the GT4's have always had a 3sgte engine. I think it would be an insult to all the Celica enthusiast if Toyota badged a Subaru and passed it off as a GT4. If you don't think its a big deal, go buy a Subaru instead.

burnyd
01-22-2009, 06:51 AM
Yes, I think they designed the head on the 3s. (correct me if I'm wrong.) I think I would be happy if we got a worthy awd/fwd car that was badged Toyota. We usually have shared platforms in the past(I.E. Matrix/Vibe). I like the idea of the AE86 revival but I would be pissed if Toyota brought back the GT4 with a stupid Subaru engine (Performance isn't the problem) because since the 165, the GT4's have always had a 3sgte engine. I think it would be an insult to all the Celica enthusiast if Toyota badged a Subaru and passed it off as a GT4. If you don't think its a big deal, go buy a Subaru instead.


Yes you would be correct a 3sgte head is made by yamaha.

but lets be honest here, toyota sports cars unfortunately did not sell, check out what cars are selling currently, camrys lol......when you say the lat gen 3sgte has 265hp compared to a ej motor that has 227... think about it you are comparing a usdm product with a jdm product... and we all know they have less emissions and majority of jdm motors make more power... Im not really sure how much power a jdm ej motor makes... but its like when you compare a 2nd gen st185 motor usdm 200hp to jdm 225 hp....

also

From what I have read they have lost out on alltracs big time, majority of the st185s sold , sold in the mid 90s late after their production dates... unfortunately they were just way over priced.

Honestly who cares, I would love to see a new gt4 even if it was powered by a GM motor. I would just love to see another awd turbo car that was a toyota...especially a boxter motor that would be awesome!

extremeskillz
01-22-2009, 02:32 PM
^I'm with stupid. I love my GT-S but i will be buying a new car someday (still keeping the celica) and would love another compact in either rwd or awd no matter what! We are all tuners and we will find ways to build the power we want so I see this argument irrelevant although you do have good points.

Colbalt SS screws and does 25mpg. So technology is there, so its just toyota lagging behind and losing their enthusiasts.

MR2Guru
01-22-2009, 06:22 PM
.....when you say the lat gen 3sgte has 265hp compared to a ej motor that has 227... think about it you are comparing a usdm product with a jdm product... and we all know they have less emissions and majority of jdm motors make more power... Im not really sure how much power a jdm ej motor makes... but its like when you compare a 2nd gen st185 motor usdm 200hp to jdm 225 hp....


Actually, I can contradict this statement. Look at the 2JZ-GTE, limited to 280hp in its JDM form. In the US she was rated at 320hp. Not that I'm particularly a fan, but the JDM 4G63T was also suited with less power overseas. Granted it came in a different chassis, it was de-tuned per "a now-defunct agreement between the major Japanese auto manufacturers to limit the maximum engine power of their cars to 280 PS (206 kW or 276 hp)." There are a slew of engines in the same position, that came to the US with more power.

The 3SGTE from 91-92 was rated at 200hp here and in Japan. In 1993 it was revised to 225hp, for a short time before the Rev 3 was introduced. If you want 225hp, you specifically need to seek a 1993 engine.

Although I might not agree with everyone's opinion, I am enthused to see so many good points being made! Here, every opinion counts. +2 for Celica Tech democracy! :bigthumbu

hobbie2k
01-22-2009, 06:55 PM
Actually, I can contradict this statement. Look at the 2JZ-GTE, limited to 280hp in its JDM form. In the US she was rated at 320hp. Not that I'm particularly a fan, but the JDM 4G63T was also suited with less power overseas. Granted it came in a different chassis, it was de-tuned per "a now-defunct agreement between the major Japanese auto manufacturers to limit the maximum engine power of their cars to 280 PS (206 kW or 276 hp)." There are a slew of engines in the same position, that came to the US with more power.

The 3SGTE from 91-92 was rated at 200hp here and in Japan. In 1993 it was revised to 225hp, for a short time before the Rev 3 was introduced. If you want 225hp, you specifically need to seek a 1993 engine.

Although I might not agree with everyone's opinion, I am enthused to see so many good points being made! Here, every opinion counts. +2 for Celica Tech democracy! :bigthumbu

Those are power "ratings", not power "output". The JDM RB26DETT was rated at just 276hp as well, but independent testing has indicated that it was actually producing dramatically more than that, I think I've read 330hp from some sources, though I can't confirm it. Many of the engines you cited were limited not my tech, but by the gentleman's agreement that you mentioned.

In the case of engines that aren't pushing close to that 276hp limit, the JDM variations have advantages or emissions regs and fuel quality that allow more precise tuning (H22A, anyone? I'm sure I could name more, but am not feeling like looking them up to be sure.

burnyd
01-22-2009, 07:07 PM
Actually, I can contradict this statement. Look at the 2JZ-GTE, limited to 280hp in its JDM form. In the US she was rated at 320hp. Not that I'm particularly a fan, but the JDM 4G63T was also suited with less power overseas. Granted it came in a different chassis, it was de-tuned per "a now-defunct agreement between the major Japanese auto manufacturers to limit the maximum engine power of their cars to 280 PS (206 kW or 276 hp)." There are a slew of engines in the same position, that came to the US with more power.

The 3SGTE from 91-92 was rated at 200hp here and in Japan. In 1993 it was revised to 225hp, for a short time before the Rev 3 was introduced. If you want 225hp, you specifically need to seek a 1993 engine.

Although I might not agree with everyone's opinion, I am enthused to see so many good points being made! Here, every opinion counts. +2 for Celica Tech democracy! :bigthumbu

I always found that ironic about dsm motors how the usdm motors were better than JDM motors... but in general you get my point about majority of usdm motors compared to jdm motors other than two of them!

MR2Guru
01-22-2009, 07:55 PM
I always found that ironic about dsm motors how the usdm motors were better than JDM motors... but in general you get my point about majority of usdm motors compared to jdm motors other than two of them!
Indeed, just like we were jipped on the late 3SGE engines; they thought we wanted less power/more displacement... HA! What were they thinking?!?!?!?! :wtf:
:lolhittin

Wicked Toys
01-22-2009, 11:39 PM
A new RWD/AWD Lightweight 2-Door Compact would be hella fun. But I'd say let the GT-Four n AE86 name stay ledgend. Cause Toyota isn't going to make the peformance n quality car we desire. Not in this market directed for economy while in a bad economy. Scion is here today for the closest form of sportyness so I would say let the concept go there built by Toyota only or mixed with Subaru. I just wouldn't want a new AE86, GT4, MR2 or Supra that wasn't built as well and better as before. Just my opinion

Plus the RS*R RWD Converted Beams powered TC and the Fensport AWD Converted 3SGTE powered 7th Gen are simply awesome.

cms-gt4
02-01-2009, 04:45 AM
On a related note, news on the subuota.
From Nov 2008 on the development.

http://jpcnews.blogspot.com/2008/10/update-toyota-fr-sports-speculation.html

MCcelica
02-01-2009, 07:30 AM
<--Will read this thread again when sober enough to understand...