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View Full Version : can you stop on a dime?



3SmeCaptain
01-11-2009, 10:11 AM
i was curious...

my project will have me using ST185 hub assemblies and whatnot... i was wondering how well the braking system works with you guys? will it stop on a dime or is it rather sluggish?

Slider
01-11-2009, 11:10 AM
Yes, for the type of driving I do I can, which is street and autocross. If I did track racing then the brakes would probably not be sufficient but I haven't done any track racing.

METDeath
01-11-2009, 02:14 PM
You could ask gt4rcdude for what all he did to his, because he can fucking stop so hard it hurts.

The Captain
01-11-2009, 02:53 PM
i was curious... will it stop on a dime?
Yes.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z220/92benzman/frontdone6.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z220/92benzman/reardone2.jpg
Actually, the OEM setup is good. I had Brembo fronts and OEM rears with Toyota pads, Motul fluid and steel braided brake lines and it was awesome. More than enough for most.

goretro77
01-11-2009, 02:56 PM
In my opinion - there is ALWAYS room for improvement in braking. Its one of the ingredients for judging how well your car handles.

I also do not judge it by only how hard it stops but how it can slow down the car from lets say 100 mph to 45 over and over again without brake fade.

The '77 Celica being front engine/trans can definitely use more braking up front. Really, it needs a larger brake setup. But being on a budget - for track days I would go into the day with brand new pads on OEM brakes and come out of them with noticeably very soft brakes.

I am very happy about how well the Elise handles, it does not suffer from brake fade as much as other cars since the front end initially carries so little weight. So little in fact - while the car is parked and steering wheel unlocked I can grab the front wheels and turn it side to side. I would watch the BMW guys bleeding their brakes in between sessions in a effort to get rid of the soft pedals, this is regardless of whether or not they had aftermarket brakes - no matter how large.
On the way home I feel no brake fade or very little, but I'll still bleed the brakes before the next open track event. In fact - you can do lots of track days on the same brakes.
In short - YEAH, I can stop on a dime.

If I was to modify the brakes i would go with the sector111 ultra front and rear disc setups to improve the brakes beyond OEM.

Idiot Stick
01-11-2009, 03:04 PM
You could ask gt4rcdude for what all he did to his, because he can fucking stop so hard it hurts.


Holy fuck yes. I swear I had seatbelt marks in my chest for the next couple days.

goretro77
01-11-2009, 03:38 PM
i was curious...

my project will have me using ST185 hub assemblies and whatnot... i was wondering how well the braking system works with you guys? will it stop on a dime or is it rather sluggish?

Weight is the true enemy. Weight generates heat when braking and too much heat causes brake fading.

With a infrared pyrometer I logged 340F on the front rotors after 40 minutes of actually tracking the car. This falls right within the acceptable range.

Freshnicity
01-11-2009, 07:49 PM
ST185 hub assembly? whats that mean exactly? the braking assembly from an alltrac?

david in germany
01-11-2009, 07:59 PM
Yes.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z220/92benzman/frontdone6.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z220/92benzman/reardone2.jpg
Actually, the OEM setup is good. I had Brembo fronts and OEM rears with Toyota pads, Motul fluid and steel braided brake lines and it was awesome. More than enough for most.
The gear in those pics cost more than my celica is worth :hehe:

Hiko
01-11-2009, 08:47 PM
I just want to make sure this gets mentioned here. The brakes themselves do not effect stopping distances, tires do. Only brake feel and resistance to fade are factors of the braking system.

I've debated getting larger brakes for my car, but when I realized that my stock brake setup could still lockup when I had Azeni's on the car, I decided against it (at least until I start tracking the car). The gear that gt4rcdude has on his car no doubt will resist fade till the cows come home and feel like a million dollars doing so, but it's the Azeni's I notice that are wrapped around the (amazing) wheels that do the actual stopping.

goretro77
01-11-2009, 10:36 PM
^^^ When I tracked my Celica RWD I would swap to slicks (Goodyears on 13" panasport rims) which meant my available grip levels were far higher, I used the brakes a lot less and the 13" rims lowered the car significantly. I did not go with a big brake setup because the 13" rims would not clear the brakes. Anyways - I did not need the extra braking power because I can already lock up the slicks. I agree - the tires are the real factors. Less weight for the tires to stop helps as well as the car's initial weight setup.

I spent my money on better tires/rims and removed the rear disk covers for the Celica's front rotors to improve the airflow. For the Elise - the OEM brakes work great and if/when they finally wear I may just stick with OEM.

"Stopping on a dime" is very subjective unless you can actually measure the stopping distances from one car to the next under the same conditions. I have seen guys with HUGE aftermarket brakes heat 'em up too much when tracking. I think its also that the driver is simply overusing them. Autocross/parking lot racing is one thing but tracking a car for 1/2 hour or more is another and is very hard on brakes.

3SmeCaptain
01-12-2009, 01:08 AM
well, technically it's a custom setup. everything after the transmission is all ST185 or 205 parts throughout the drive train and i'll be using the wheel hub assemblies, brakes and suspension from the ST185/205 aswell.

projected weight should be around 2800-3000lbs. it's not a celica chassis, it's an xB chassis *toyota bB or Scion xB*. i was curious due to the mods i'll be doing to it. wanted to make sure the brakng power would be enough or if i needed an upgrade. i'll be running 225 wide tires all around which is about as wide as i can go, 245 i think being the maximum.

The Captain
01-12-2009, 01:16 PM
it's not a celica chassis, it's an xB chassis *toyota bB or Scion xB*.

Unless your going to race down Klausenpass with a load of bricks, three 400lb passengers while towing a boat, the OE Celica Alltrac braking system is more than enough for that application.
My Alltrac is 3400lbs with a full tank of fuel.

KoreanJoey
01-12-2009, 10:14 PM
^^^Exactly

The OE Alltrac system is more than capable of stocking a 3500lbs car w/o a problem.

Big thing will be getting good brake pads that have good pedal feel and modulation that won't overheat with repeated braking. And getting brake fluid that won't start to boil.

METDeath
01-13-2009, 12:40 AM
Soo... for a guy with a stock brake system that pushes it on occasion, any fluid recommendations? I was leaning towards Motul

KoreanJoey
01-13-2009, 01:01 AM
Motul has good reviews but DAMN it's expensive. ATE Superblue is a good alternative and I've had no problems with my Wilwood 570.

3SmeCaptain
01-13-2009, 03:19 AM
thanks for the reinsurance! i just didn't want to assume that it would do the job.

like i said, setup should b roughly 2800-3000lbs estimated weight. build is for Rally snow racing so i'm not too worried about brake power. braking in the snow would only cause more problems anyway so... but because of how i'm building it, i wanted to make sure the braking system would good for daily use.

it'll be using a 2GR-FE with about 400-450hp and torque boosted out of it. i've got the block and tranny in storage already and now just locating a ST185 or ST205 that's broken down engine wise so i can bum the rest of the drive train and suspension from.

KoreanJoey
01-13-2009, 07:01 AM
Call Doug Smith with UP Garage.

253 565 9823

I think I remember he had a ST185 half-cut (and he usually gets the drivetrain as well). If you really, really want it you could probably convince him to split the drivetrain from the rest of the ST185.

3SmeCaptain
01-13-2009, 11:12 PM
thanks!!