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View Full Version : A swapping we will go...



Murgatroy
12-31-2008, 08:02 AM
Alright, this has been discussed for a while among some of us.

I want this up in it's own thread for the purpose of discussion and planning, this way those that have volunteered to help me know what we are getting into.

Come April, in preparation for the Dragon Run, well to be more precise, a day or so prior to the event... We are dropping a fresher powerplant into Mudhoney.

What I want to do here is discuss this, and separate fact from fiction and clear the myths.

Well, I hope we can.

Mudhoney is an `89 Celica GT. ST162. She is equipped with a 3SFE and an S53.

The 3SFE is gone.

I want to drop a 5SFE into her.

The reasoning for this is not for a powerhouse, it is just a reliable motor until such time as she goes under for a larger engine. I just want her running so I can thrash her on the Dragon again.

Here are the issues we need to discuss.

Compatibility of the electronics. Ideally I am wanting a drop and go solution.

I have been told all the electronics will plug into an early 5SFE (90-91) and still use the 3SFE ECU and harness. Can anyone verify this?

I want to reuse my S53. Will my clutch/pressure plate/flywheel bolt to the 5SFE crank?

Will my 3SFE starter be compatible with the 5SFE?

The goal is to perform this swap in a day. There will be more than a few of us doing this, each of us knowing our way around a toolbox and a Celica.

The reason I am shooting for a 5SFE over another 3SFE is availability. I assume that I will be able to find a lower mileage 5SFE much more readily than I could find a similar 3SFE. Plus I want to explore this swap as an option for others who might find themselves in the same situation as myself. As stated above, I am not looking for power, anyone that has seen me drive knows that I don't need a powerful car to have fun and go fast.

So, let's discuss this and hash it out, and I promise a fancy write-up and walk through involving several of our members as they help me perform this.

CriScO
12-31-2008, 08:23 AM
We'll need a new flywheel, the rest of the clutch components are good to go. 5S uses the 8 bolt, 3S(FE only) uses a six.

Starter will be fine. Technically they are different, but only in design. The 5S starter is a bit more compact and slightly stronger, by eye anyway. Otherwise, the mounting points, gear, nose length, mount, etc. are all the same.

I haven't been able to confirm the electrical, unfortunately. I know we'll have to re-use the MAF, but I can't see anything else being too much to handle quickly.

Shadowlife25
12-31-2008, 08:26 AM
The engine mounting points are the same between the two powerplants.

As to the electronics, I believe that the plugs going to the ecu are physically different, but I am not positive. Sensors and such should be basically the same.
Either way gimme a schematic and an hour or so with a soldering iron and we're golden.

CriScO
12-31-2008, 08:36 AM
I think he's planning on using the 3S ecu and wiring, Mario. We're trying to avoid that full on wire swap! :)

KoreanJoey
12-31-2008, 08:37 AM
I think the idea with the 3SFE was to retain ALL of the factory wiring, ECU included.

Murgatroy
12-31-2008, 05:12 PM
Yes, I intent to retain all of the 3SFE electronics.

extremeskillz
12-31-2008, 05:18 PM
I do remember talking about this and can't wait to see the results! Should be a straight forward swap as long as all prerequisites are met.

vip09
12-31-2008, 05:20 PM
I think going with the 5S electrics (MAP sensor) would be more reliable than staying with the AFM. 5S harnesses and electrics are a dime a dozen.

Murgatroy
12-31-2008, 05:27 PM
I think going with the 5S electrics (MAP sensor) would be more reliable than staying with the AFM. 5S harnesses and electrics are a dime a dozen.
More effort, time and money than I am willing to exert at this time.

I can get an entire 5SFE for $150 with a 30 day warranty. Which is long enough for me to beat the hell out it at the Dragon.

I am looking at having a minimum in this.

If she runs and moves reliably, then this frees me up to move on to another project.

anachranerd
12-31-2008, 05:40 PM
Will it mate to the 3sfe tranny ok?

CriScO
12-31-2008, 06:12 PM
Will it mate to the 3sfe tranny ok?
Same tranny. The 3S-FE version is slightly modified, different ratios/axles, but it's still a S53. Any S block with mate to any S transaxle.

anachranerd
12-31-2008, 06:23 PM
So would you have to use the axles off the 3sfe then? Im a little confuzzled about axle compatability between models

CriScO
12-31-2008, 06:51 PM
So would you have to use the axles off the 3sfe then? Im a little confuzzled about axle compatability between models
Well we're using the same transaxle, so that won't be an issue. :)

Basically, the S53 made for the 3S-FE was the only version with different axles. For instance, the S53 on your 3S-GE has the exact same axles as a 5S-FE S53. The 3S-FE version uses two identical equal length axles. The center shaft isn't easily removable(compared to the others). All other versions have one axle that is attached to the center shaft, and one just like the 3S-FE version.

So the difference is that most S53's have the one axle that is more permanently attached to the center shaft. The 3S-FE is the only engine to get the different version, you don't have to worry about it with any other model.

Oh! One more thing. On any version, the length of both axles, minus that center shaft, is the same. The distance from the mounting point on the transaxle to the hub is identical. So any axle will work with any car, the difference is only in how it mounts to the tranny.

Luni
12-31-2008, 06:57 PM
Im telling you, you will be able to mount all the electronics from the 3S to the 5S and you will be in the realm of safety. NA cars generally get much larger injectors than they need, and in closed loop mode, your ECU will compensate for the changes in VE (because of the AFM, combined with the higher displacement, the ECU will know how much more air your engine is processing and will adjust for it.)

You should honestly be able to place all the sensors and what not.

Worst case, use the 5S longblock, swap all 3S manifolds, harness, and other bits. I know it will work Murg. I know the heads are identical between the 2, the intake manifolds/throttle bodies might be a little different, but Im pretty sure you can plug and play it with the 3S electronics.

Its exactly what I told Gina to do on her car. I implicitly told her NOT to cut her damn wiring harness. And the rocket scientists cut the wiring harness.

anachranerd
12-31-2008, 08:46 PM
m telling you, you will be able to mount all the electronics from the 3S to the 5S and you will be in the realm of safety. NA cars generally get much larger injectors than they need, and in closed loop mode, your ECU will compensate for the changes in VE (because of the AFM, combined with the higher displacement, the ECU will know how much more air your engine is processing and will adjust for it.)

Let me make sure I understand you. The ECU will learn new values when running in closed loop mode? So from the ECU's standpoint, it will run the engine thinking it has one displacement. It will have the Old injector duration. So it will fire the injectors thinking it has one amount of air. It will then see a lean condition, because it actually is getting more air than it thinks it is, and adjust the duration(duty cycle) accordingly?

Luni
12-31-2008, 08:49 PM
Yeah, on this setup, cause its got an AFM on it, it doesnt matter how much he increases his displacement. In this instance, its the same as increasing turbo size on a turboed car, so as long as he doesnt exceed the limits of the fuel injectors he will be fine.

Its ran off an AFM. It measures air flow into the engine. Air flow through the AFM is an absolute value. The amount of airflow the engine ingests is up to its displacement, since hes upping the displacement, the 3SFE ECU will still be able to fuel for it.

This woudlnt necessarily hold true on a MAP based car, but on one with an AFM, it will work.

anachranerd
12-31-2008, 09:04 PM
Air flow through the AFM is an absolute value

Hummm. here is where I am confused. The afm has variable resistance dependent on how far the flap is open. So the ecu sees a change in voltage. Now, i take the ecu of my 3sge and hook it to its normal afm, it sees a voltage change as I open and close the flapper. So I take that same ecu, and hook it to my 5sfe or whatever, which im assuming has a different size afm. It will still see a voltage drop, increase, etc. But that tells it how much the flap is open. It has no idea that the flap may be covering a smaller hole, and thus flowing a different amount of air.

Confused... :wtf:

Luni
12-31-2008, 09:10 PM
Youre overanalyzing it.

Youre keeping the same electronics. Same ECU, same AFM, same logic. Youre simply increasing the airflow into the engine. As long as that AFMs door has more room to open, and the voltage goes the direction its supposed to, the ECU can tell its got more airflow and adequately flow for it.

As long as hes not out of his injector realm, he will be fine.

anachranerd
12-31-2008, 09:13 PM
Ahhhh-same afm. Got it. Thought he was using an ecu with a different afm.

EDIT: Yeah Im FAMOUS for over analyzing.

Luni
12-31-2008, 09:28 PM
Murg, you may not make the rated power of a stock 5SFE with this setup, but you WILL be more powerful than the 3SFE was. You will feel it in your butt dyno for sure.

Murgatroy
12-31-2008, 09:33 PM
In effect it will just be a 2.2l 3SFE.

Luni
12-31-2008, 10:10 PM
Yeah, like I said. As long as you have injector for it.

I think you will.

Murgatroy
12-31-2008, 10:18 PM
I am sure there will be enough injector for it, especially seeing as how Toyota has a tendency of running these motors rich.

The factory 5SFE injectors would be an option as well, seeing as how I will be getting a complete engine.

Lonestag
12-31-2008, 10:38 PM
Yall better take pics...

85gtsblackman
12-31-2008, 11:06 PM
ive said it several times, the 90-91 5sfe is almost the same as the old 3sfe, the major differce is the displacement

CriScO
01-02-2009, 04:50 AM
Yall better take pics...
Like Murg said, between the four or so of us doing it, we should be able to come up with a decent write-up. :)

ciento44
01-02-2009, 03:31 PM
Murg.... If there's a Rev2 in there, and if we end up having time to do wiring depending when Mario and I get there.....

A rev2 5sfe would probably feel pretty damn quick in that little car.

But with what you're talking about.... just chuck a 2.2 longblock in there and call it good.

85gtsblackman
01-02-2009, 05:12 PM
but with a rev 2 5s we would have to fanagle with more wiring and whatnot, to gain 5hp

ciento44
01-02-2009, 06:05 PM
but with a rev 2 5s we would have to fanagle with more wiring and whatnot, to gain 5hp


5hp yeah..... but if you've driven a rev1 and rev2 back to back.... it's way more difference than just that. It's a smoother engine, more torque, just.... happier.

A 1993 rev2 is a MUCH different beast than a 1990 rev1.