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lefthkcc
12-17-2008, 02:31 AM
Picked up a crappy 1990 celica gt. Going to get a parts car (1992 GT will be fine?) to do a restoration.

As far as performance mods what would be the cheapest/easiest path to 400hp?
It's bone stock right now.

celica91gts
12-17-2008, 02:51 AM
400 hp is impossible on the 5sfe.... also a ff car with that much power will get you no where but stuck at the light spinning. if you are set on a car with 400 hp i recommend you buy a better platform. the most i've seen a 5sfe make even when people turbo it is 260ish. i think its pressure2 and supershannon have the most reliable and powerful 5sfte set up on this site. if you want to swap the 3sgte in it is possible but in my opinion it would be a pain in the ass.

Lonestag
12-17-2008, 02:56 AM
You might have a couple of people balk at that number,
400hp would be nearly impossible without NASA-esque funding if you are going to attempt to get that number without going forced induction.

If you want 400hp in that car, the best option would be to do the 3SGTE swap. The 5SFE in there now pushes around 130hp and it doesn't respond amazingly to bolt on mods. I think the current highest HP anybody we know has gotten on that engine is around 150whp dynoed.

Swapping in a 3SGTE would give you a turbo setup to work with. With a larger Turbo and the right mods/budget this is probably the easiest path to 400hp.

The third option is turbocharging the 5S, which a few have done. It would be much more difficult (in my opinion) to get a supercharged 5S to 400hp then a 3SGTE, though some may disagree.


Lastly, thats a lot of power for a light little GT with front wheel drive. I imagine that at 400hp that car might be at the edge of drivability. Unless this is a drag car, that might be more then you want.

If you decide to scale down your goals, headers, intake, exaust, cams and engine management have been shown to be the winning combination for NA on the motor.

Hope that was a help.

lefthkcc
12-17-2008, 03:36 AM
wow...very informative responses, a lot of help! Thanks guys.

Yes, I was considering the 3sgte swap, was just wondering if that was the best way. If it is I can do it. No one has a 400hp 3sgte setup? I know it's pushing driveability a bit, maybe 350-375 would do?

So with the 3sgte swap what tranny should I go with? Is there a guide for turbo selection and which other mods do I need to do? Fuel injection? Exhaust? I'm new to this.

I want to lay out the plan now so I can see what is possible finance/schedule wise for me.

Grot
12-17-2008, 03:40 AM
Really, 250 or 275 is more than enough for DD. anymore than that and you get horrible torque steer. but with exaust use 2.25" inch piping. im not sure if you will need to upgrade you fuel system.

celica91gts
12-17-2008, 03:48 AM
wow...very informative responses, a lot of help! Thanks guys.

Yes, I was considering the 3sgte swap, was just wondering if that was the best way. If it is I can do it. No one has a 400hp 3sgte setup? I know it's pushing driveability a bit, maybe 350-375 would do?

So with the 3sgte swap what tranny should I go with? Is there a guide for turbo selection and which other mods do I need to do? Fuel injection? Exhaust? I'm new to this.

I want to lay out the plan now so I can see what is possible finance/schedule wise for me.


400 hp is more then obtainable for a 3sgte. it really depends on how much money you would like to spend though.

Murgatroy
12-17-2008, 04:26 AM
The 3SGTE has been proven time and time again to reach the 400 WHP range, with ease.

It is not difficult to swap in either. Using the right tranny (with LSD) and you have a potent setup.

However, the thing you must answer is, What do you want form this car?

400 WHP is asking a lot without telling us what you want to do with the car.

I daily drive a 250 HP FWD car. It is fun, sure. But it sucks from a stop, is horrible in the rain and is frankly no good for anything other than a straight line run. And this is in a package over a 1000 pounds heavier than your GT.

We can get you to 400 HP easily. Hell, at this point in the game it isn't even a challenge.

However, to help you get the most from your car, tell us what you want from it, how do you intend to use it? What is your preferred driving style?

GT4SOM
12-17-2008, 05:23 AM
Yah 400 hp isn't fun. The car starts to lose its fun factor after 300 whp.

burnyd
12-17-2008, 05:41 AM
why 400hp? What have you driven in the likes of that in a fwd car to that speed?

you could hit that on a 2nd gen 3sgte swap, sorry but it is not going to happen on a 5sfe.

you could prolly,prolly do it on a unopened motor with a turbo like a gt2871r or a gt30rish would get you right in that efficiency range of 400hp.....

lefthkcc
12-17-2008, 05:41 AM
hmm...thanks for your input guys. I intend to use it as one of two DD. Mostly highway. I really just want a fun, fast car that can smoke just about anything on the road. Also I want it to be a fun, challenging project. The AWD conversion is close to impossible and not even worth a second thought right?

celica91gts
12-17-2008, 05:45 AM
awd conversion = fail. if you are going to spend that much money to convert a car might as well buy a real all-trac. not to mention that awd converted cars handle like an astro van. about your goals. what do you mean stomp on cars on the road? because by cars i think of everyday cars we see such as stangs, and civics. if that is thats in your mind too let me assure you that a 3sgte swapped gt couple celica(light and nimble) will most likely rip the doors off of a stang (bulky and heavy). its about power to weight ratio. so your light car with 200ish hp is one quick car. i just think 400 hp is over kill in our cars.

lefthkcc
12-17-2008, 06:04 AM
Well if they handle that bad, than maybe 300-350 will be a more realistic goal to keep the car driveable. As far as cars on the road, I would like to just blow past anything stock (c5s, supras, vr4, 300zx etc).

ruadan
12-17-2008, 06:13 AM
its not that they handle bad i think. Its more that such a light car would react bad to so much power. you would just sit there and spin.

ciento44
12-17-2008, 02:48 PM
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread...

I've bookmarked it... i'll return when i have more time later.

mr2trd3
12-17-2008, 05:52 PM
Gen2 3SGTE swap + mad modifications would be the "easiest" way to 400hp.

However, this will not be cheap nor easy (I suppose this is subjective). Most importantly, I think it will be a waste of time and money to do it in a crappy 1990 Celica GT. Definitely the worst way of spending $7-8k if not more.

vip09
12-17-2008, 06:51 PM
Just send your car to ATS.


http://www.atsracing.net/350whpbuildup.htm

ciento44
12-17-2008, 06:56 PM
Just send your car to ATS.


http://www.atsracing.net/350whpbuildup.htm


HAHAHAHAHAHHAH WTF!!!!!!!!!

You have GOT to be kidding me!!

"For the price of a nice E36 M3, we will take your MR2 turbo that with the correct bolt ons will put out damn near 300whp, and add 60-70whp on race gas to it!"

I guess that's fine for someone with way too much money and no mechanical aptitude to speak of....

But... wow.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool that they offer that drop off your car and get it back later fast thing... but i just... uhmm.. ouch.

vip09
12-17-2008, 06:58 PM
It may not be the cheapest, but it's most certainly the easiest! ;)

ciento44
12-17-2008, 07:13 PM
It may not be the cheapest, but it's most certainly the easiest! ;)


Definitely the easiest!

I guess i just haven't met an MR2 owner that would go for it...

Sounds like something Porsche or Ferrari owners would go for.

mr2trd3
12-17-2008, 09:50 PM
Definitely the easiest!

I guess i just haven't met an MR2 owner that would go for it...

Sounds like something Porsche or Ferrari owners would go for.

True. Most MR2 owners are:

1) young gents without a lot of money
2) enthusiasts so they do everything themselves
3) don't care for their Ferrari wanabe

ciento44
12-17-2008, 10:03 PM
400 hp is impossible on the 5sfe.... also a ff car with that much power will get you no where but stuck at the light spinning. if you are set on a car with 400 hp i recommend you buy a better platform. the most i've seen a 5sfe make even when people turbo it is 260ish. i think its pressure2 and supershannon have the most reliable and powerful 5sfte set up on this site. if you want to swap the 3sgte in it is possible but in my opinion it would be a pain in the ass.

400hp is more than possible on a 5sfe. Shannon is putting down ~300whp on a bone stock 5sfe, ebay turbo kit, and a cheap management system. You should see that number jump ridiculous amounts with some mild head work, cams, intake manifold modifications, etc... Now... would i trust a stock 5sfe bottom end with 400whp? Nah. But on the flip side, i don't think i'd trust a stock bottom end 3sgte to hold that long term, either.



You might have a couple of people balk at that number,
400hp would be nearly impossible without NASA-esque funding if you are going to attempt to get that number without going forced induction.


Haha, i think the only n/a motor even remotely possible to do this with that wouldn't be the most ridiculous swap ever would be one of the 2grs. :D I'd LOVE to see it, though. Wheelspin would probably be WORSE, with the lack of turbo lag.


Really, 250 or 275 is more than enough for DD. anymore than that and you get horrible torque steer. but with exaust use 2.25" inch piping. im not sure if you will need to upgrade you fuel system.

Torque steer comes on because of, as you alluded to... torque. A 200whp 5sfte could be putting out as much as 250wtq, and it WILL come on VERY quickly. It'll torque steer like a motor. 3sgte is less apt to torque steer, from what i've found, because it doesn't have those retarded spooling characteristics, and isn't a low end brute to start with.

If you go turbo ANYTHING, just do it right the first time and go with 3". (Or larger) 2.25" mandrel bend piping is what i would use on an n/a 5sfe. Too small for turbo application.


awd conversion = fail. if you are going to spend that much money to convert a car might as well buy a real all-trac. not to mention that awd converted cars handle like an astro van. about your goals. what do you mean stomp on cars on the road? because by cars i think of everyday cars we see such as stangs, and civics. if that is thats in your mind too let me assure you that a 3sgte swapped gt couple celica(light and nimble) will most likely rip the doors off of a stang (bulky and heavy). its about power to weight ratio. so your light car with 200ish hp is one quick car. i just think 400 hp is over kill in our cars.

Agreed.... except that a stock swap is anything but quick. It's better than a 5sfe, yeah... but you'll still get smoked by your average mid 90s civic with a junkyard frankenstein LS Vtec.


Well if they handle that bad, than maybe 300-350 will be a more realistic goal to keep the car driveable. As far as cars on the road, I would like to just blow past anything stock (c5s, supras, vr4, 300zx etc).

They handle GREAT for an early 90s car. And if the car is set up properly, and you know how to drive, 400whp is driveable on the street. 300whp will be enough to scare you and your passenger silly, though... Put it this way... a stock STI doesn't even put down 300whp. And you'll weigh a good 4-500lbs less.



its not that they handle bad i think. Its more that such a light car would react bad to so much power. you would just sit there and spin.

Depends on setup... stiff mounts, good tire, good tranny, right sized turbo, and tuning will help A LOT. There are a TON of 300+whp Hondas in my area, and you'd best believe they're 2-500lbs lighter than a swapped celica. They seem to do ok. (Except for the ones that insist on running walmart tires)


Gen2 3SGTE swap + mad modifications would be the "easiest" way to 400hp.

However, this will not be cheap nor easy (I suppose this is subjective). Most importantly, I think it will be a waste of time and money to do it in a crappy 1990 Celica GT. Definitely the worst way of spending $7-8k if not more.

Yeah... if it's a crappy car, i agree. If it's a NICE 1990 GT... why not? I can think of worse ways to spend that money, EASILY. I can think of better, too... (M3, anyone?)



The point is..... yes. 400whp is plenty acheivable, i believe it'll cost ABOUT the same 5sfe vs 3sgte. Up to what you want to do, and what your goals really are.

But if this question really needs to be asked, i think there's a LOT more research to be done.

vip09
12-17-2008, 10:18 PM
Definitely the easiest!

I guess i just haven't met an MR2 owner that would go for it...

Sounds like something Porsche or Ferrari owners would go for.


My friend has the ATS turn-key TD06 + ROM tune + stroker build. But yeah, he's a baller.


http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/3/5/0/6/n69800904_30295423_6562.jpg

http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/3/5/0/6/n69800904_30295431_8831.jpg

ciento44
12-17-2008, 10:22 PM
And ballers would never get covered in oil... :D

mr2trd3
12-17-2008, 10:39 PM
I find it hard to believe that someone was able to achieve 300whp on a bone stock 5SFE with an eBay turbo kit and some cheap engine management. Regardless, this route is probably: 1) false, OR 2) not cheap and not reliable. Otherwise, everyone would be doing this.

ciento44
12-17-2008, 10:48 PM
I find it hard to believe that someone was able to achieve 300whp on a bone stock 5SFE with an eBay turbo kit and some cheap engine management. Regardless, this route is probably: 1) false, OR 2) not cheap and not reliable. Otherwise, everyone would be doing this.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52431

It's a pretty basic setup..... I believe Manny mentioned that there's more in it.

This cannot be a slow car. By any stretch of the imagination.

celica91gts
12-18-2008, 12:14 AM
i meant 400 hp is impossible to achieve on a n/a 5sfe. and i doubt even a boosted 5sfe will achieve 400 hp easily at all. if you do try to make a 5sfte have 400 hp then i wish who ever the best of luck. you brave poor souls. because for the amount of money you spend in doing that you could have built a better 3sgte.

burnyd
12-18-2008, 12:45 AM
i meant 400 hp is impossible to achieve on a n/a 5sfe. and i doubt even a boosted 5sfe will achieve 400 hp easily at all. if you do try to make a 5sfte have 400 hp then i wish who ever the best of luck. you brave poor souls. because for the amount of money you spend in doing that you could have built a better 3sgte.


I have to totally agree with you unless it was some frankensteined 5sfe with 3s parts, I have not yet to do the math but I highly doubt a slave cam driven head 4cly with that type of displacement is going to be able to produce that type of power as well as be able to support that type of power....


maybe like once? But I dont see it happening.

If you havent found out yet ciento has not yet to show us anything from a toyota powerplant, just all talk.... and I heard about some pos crx and some other saab he had or something but has yet to do anything but run his mouth!

90CelicaST
12-18-2008, 01:16 AM
^ Oh snap

ciento44
12-18-2008, 03:01 PM
I have to totally agree with you unless it was some frankensteined 5sfe with 3s parts, I have not yet to do the math but I highly doubt a slave cam driven head 4cly with that type of displacement is going to be able to produce that type of power as well as be able to support that type of power....


maybe like once? But I dont see it happening.

If you havent found out yet ciento has not yet to show us anything from a toyota powerplant, just all talk.... and I heard about some pos crx and some other saab he had or something but has yet to do anything but run his mouth!

I never said stock bottom end 5sfe.

And when you consider that you can build a 5sfe bottom end for cheaper than swapping a 3sgte... i'd say there isn't a price difference. Yeah... i haven't done it. But the parts are there, the prices are there, and we KNOW it's possible.

Bring your MR2 out here, i'll race you with a 5sfe if you can keep it from detonating all over the place. :D

Stay off my nuts... i'm legitimately trying to help the guy and give a different viewpoint. I'm not saying 5sfe = god... just giving options and correcting misconceptions.

burnyd
12-18-2008, 05:03 PM
I never said stock bottom end 5sfe.

And when you consider that you can build a 5sfe bottom end for cheaper than swapping a 3sgte... i'd say there isn't a price difference. Yeah... i haven't done it. But the parts are there, the prices are there, and we KNOW it's possible.

Bring your MR2 out here, i'll race you with a 5sfe if you can keep it from detonating all over the place. :D

Stay off my nuts... i'm legitimately trying to help the guy and give a different viewpoint. I'm not saying 5sfe = god... just giving options and correcting misconceptions.


mmkay!

ciento44
12-18-2008, 05:21 PM
mmkay!


I <3 you Dan.... :wiggle: You're still my favourite. :D

I'll spring for some Rolling Rock for you at the Dragon.

lefthkcc
12-18-2008, 06:18 PM
I meant 400hp at the crank...

but anyway, judging from what all of you are saying, 300whp would be fine. I just wanted to see what was "easily" possible with the car. I'm not trying to build the biggest or the baddest race car, just want something fun to drive and have some fun building it up.

There's so much different info on the thread, can someone just give a quick summary please?

Cheapest and fastest is with the swap or no? If it's possible I guess I'd rather keep the engine in and not do the swap...
Can someone just post a breakdown what needs to be done (no swap) and the parts I need. I know I asked a pretty vague question from the get go, but hopefully everything is cleared up now.

Freshnicity
12-18-2008, 06:21 PM
I meant 400hp at the crank...

but anyway, judging from what all of you are saying, 300whp would be fine. I just wanted to see what was "easily" possible with the car. I'm not trying to build the biggest or the baddest race car, just want something fun to drive and have some fun building it up.

There's so much different info on the thread, can someone just give a quick summary please?

Cheapest and fastest is with the swap or no? If it's possible I guess I'd rather keep the engine in and not do the swap...
Can someone just post a breakdown what needs to be done (no swap) and the parts I need. I know I asked a pretty vague question from the get go, but hopefully everything is cleared up now.

If you want you can just buy the JDM 5th Gen Toyota Celica turbo kit, and turbo your 5s engine. Not sure exactly how it will hold up, and how much gain in power you'll get, but it might be fun to tweak it and turbo your 5s that way.

Or you can do the 5s-fte, which i was going to do, but decided to go with the 3s swap instead.

http://warp.scl.utah.edu/mr2/Turbo5sfe.html <--- great start.

Other than that, thats all i can really help with. Goodluck my dude.

mr2trd3
12-18-2008, 06:35 PM
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52431

It's a pretty basic setup..... I believe Manny mentioned that there's more in it.

This cannot be a slow car. By any stretch of the imagination.

I've read this thread in the past before. I believe one or two other 5SFTE advocates have posted their projects of similar results on MR2OC. To my recollection, we have yet to have one 5SFTE to run reliably for many many miles. The overall concensus is that turbocharging the 5SFE is a waste. I'm not going to debate with you about turbocharging a 5SFE vs the 3SGTE because there is nothing to debate.

Is it possible? Well, anything is possible with enough money. Is it worth it? Only if you're a die-hard Camry motor fan, even then you'd still be dreaming of the 3SGTE.

Why polish a turd?

mr2trd3
12-18-2008, 06:39 PM
I never said stock bottom end 5sfe.

And when you consider that you can build a 5sfe bottom end for cheaper than swapping a 3sgte... i'd say there isn't a price difference. Yeah... i haven't done it. But the parts are there, the prices are there, and we KNOW it's possible.

Bring your MR2 out here, i'll race you with a 5sfe if you can keep it from detonating all over the place. :D

Stay off my nuts... i'm legitimately trying to help the guy and give a different viewpoint. I'm not saying 5sfe = god... just giving options and correcting misconceptions.

Good luck with your built bottom end 5S with a crap head. The only way a 5S is worthy of modifying is when it is mated to the 3S head.

Last I heard, the 3SGTE doesn't have an issue with detonation if stock, mildly modified, or heavily modified with proper tune. However, I have seen quite a few carnage pictures of 5SFE motors that want to be like its 3S brother. Just food for though.

Why polish a turd?

mr2trd3
12-18-2008, 06:42 PM
To the OP, you've already stated that you have a crappy 1990 Celica. Believe me, it's not worth doing anything to your car. You can put thousands of dollars into that car, but it's still on a platform that lacks performance. If you're dying to have a turbo engine in your crappy Celica and you actually want a reliable setup with room to grow, nothing beats going with a Gen2 3SGTE.

Why polish a turd?

burnyd
12-18-2008, 06:48 PM
I meant 400hp at the crank...

but anyway, judging from what all of you are saying, 300whp would be fine. I just wanted to see what was "easily" possible with the car. I'm not trying to build the biggest or the baddest race car, just want something fun to drive and have some fun building it up.

There's so much different info on the thread, can someone just give a quick summary please?

Cheapest and fastest is with the swap or no? If it's possible I guess I'd rather keep the engine in and not do the swap...
Can someone just post a breakdown what needs to be done (no swap) and the parts I need. I know I asked a pretty vague question from the get go, but hopefully everything is cleared up now.

well what have you done int he past? Motor swaps, car work etc? It all depends on your mechanical kniowledge... if your looking for cheep chances are this is not the type of car to work on.. well it depends really on what you consider cheep......

if I was shooting for 300 whp I would be looking at a 3rd generation 3sgte, it is the motor setup in a st205 which is a 94-99 gt4 overseas...that motor with bolt ons will run you in the 300whp + range.... just with an exhaust front mount and boost controller you will hit your desired range of power.

burnyd
12-18-2008, 06:49 PM
I've read this thread in the past before. I believe one or two other 5SFTE advocates have posted their projects of similar results on MR2OC. To my recollection, we have yet to have one 5SFTE to run reliably for many many miles. The overall concensus is that turbocharging the 5SFE is a waste. I'm not going to debate with you about turbocharging a 5SFE vs the 3SGTE because there is nothing to debate.

Is it possible? Well, anything is possible with enough money. Is it worth it? Only if you're a die-hard Camry motor fan, even then you'd still be dreaming of the 3SGTE.

Why polish a turd?

Yessss!!!!!! exactly!

90CelicaST
12-18-2008, 06:52 PM
ITT: Closed-minded MR2 owners.

mr2trd3
12-18-2008, 07:02 PM
ITT: Closed-minded MR2 owners.

Not at all. This really has nothing to do with MR2's versus Celica's (as there is really no comparison if you're looking for performance), rather the 5S vs the 3S. If you haven't gotten the hint..

WHY POLISH A TURD?

It's like choosing to modify a Honda D16 over a K20 or even a B16. It just makes you wonder, why? To prove something? To prove that the 5S can be or beat a 3S? If that's what you really care about, I'd like to suggest that you convert your FWD Celica's to be or beat a (add any car that was actually built with the slightest hint of performance in mind).

The OP is looking for reasonable options. Here's my take:

1) It's not worth dumping money into your crappy 1990 Celica GT.
2) If you just HAVE TO do it, go with the 3SGTE. At least it will be worth your monies and last you a while.

burnyd
12-18-2008, 07:15 PM
^^ Ugh oh you mentioned hondas we are going to have to hear all about cientos friends hondas who run like 7 sec passes and can lift the front wheels on fwd cars!


okay back to thread...

yes it is retarded I have to agree with you, but its the best way to add cheep power...think about it throw together a ct26 manifold oil lines intercooler fuel and your ready to go, you could prolly get a junkyard setup with used crap for 5-600 dollars if thats all you care about.....

but if you want to do it the right way you would do a 3sgte swap.. because chances are after that 600 dollars you spent on that setup things are going to break you will need to hoses fouled out plugs blah blah youll get to the 1000 dollar mark which would be half the price of getting a 3sgte to your door......

the thing about swapping a mr2 and why mr2 owners do not even consider doing a 5s turbo setup is because you get a waaayyyyyy better transmission when you do a swap.

ciento44
12-18-2008, 08:20 PM
Good luck with your built bottom end 5S with a crap head. The only way a 5S is worthy of modifying is when it is mated to the 3S head.

Last I heard, the 3SGTE doesn't have an issue with detonation if stock, mildly modified, or heavily modified with proper tune. However, I have seen quite a few carnage pictures of 5SFE motors that want to be like its 3S brother. Just food for though.

Why polish a turd?

That was a jab at BurnyD in particular. :hehe: I know the 3sgte is fine.

The problem is that most of the 5sftes are at best, EXTREMELY rudimentary setups.

We'll see how Shannon's lasts. Until then, i have no concrete argument. Seems to be doing just fine in terms of power at the moment, at relatively acceptable boost levels.

ciento44
12-18-2008, 08:22 PM
Oh urg.... this is going nowhere now...

Bai, all!

celica91gts
12-19-2008, 01:26 AM
honestly, and to the op we have all listed the options that you can do to achieve w/e your goal is. i suggest you use our search function and look deeper into the path you wish to take rather then asking for us to do a full summary and list what you need. when you run into small technical questions many of us will be glad to answer but right now what your looking for is so broad. it's pointless to start another thread when we have at least 50 threads of information about the 3sgte swap or even boosting the 5sfe. i wish you the best of luck. happy hunting.

lefthkcc
12-19-2008, 04:42 AM
Thanks guys. The options have been listed, and I'll take my time thinking about the best possible route.

CPincy
12-19-2008, 05:01 AM
I guess the thing i think is cool about a turbo 5s is because half you people are afraid to do it...you all just cry motor swap!! why? do something different for once..getting my 5s to the point it is right now wasnt to hard or crazy expensive..and im working a full rebuild with internals, head work and all..am i counting on 400hp? hell no! 300 to 325 is all im expecting...but im just saying i dont think its that hard..and it will cost about $2500 to do it..for me thats not too expensive and i am college student

mr2trd3
12-19-2008, 02:14 PM
I guess the thing i think is cool about a turbo 5s is because half you people are afraid to do it...you all just cry motor swap!! why? do something different for once..getting my 5s to the point it is right now wasnt to hard or crazy expensive..and im working a full rebuild with internals, head work and all..am i counting on 400hp? hell no! 300 to 325 is all im expecting...but im just saying i dont think its that hard..and it will cost about $2500 to do it..for me thats not too expensive and i am college student

GODDAMN. I see this "try something different" arguement/reason/excuse everyday now, it seems. If you want something "different" or better yet, JDMtyteYO!, throw in a 2JZ :) It's difficult, but CAN be done and is WAY RADICALLY "different" and JDMtyteYO!

Do your research, man. If you think you can get 300-325 reliable HP (not talking WHP here as that is definitely impossible with your budget) with a budget of $2500 on a 5SFE, you are terribly mistaken. For a little more (~$3-3.5k), you can get a low mileage Gen2 3SGTE clip. With that, you can have up to 250 RELIABLE WHP on a basic bolt-on setup PLUS a better tranny (the word better doesn't really serve justice here as the E153 is 10-folds better) PLUS room to grow if needed. With $2.5k, I suspect you can probably put together a home-made turbo kit combining used OEM parts and hit ~180WHP reliably (this is slightly more what a stock Gen2 3SGTE makes). In my opinion, $2.5k on an econo-Camry motor to achieve stock numbers of another drop-in Toyota motor/tranny/etc that is superior in every way is failure to the max.

For all those who think a powerful, reliable, and cheap 5SFTE can be had, please stop your thinking and do some more research. It's damn near impossible and borderline idiotic. For the "want-to-be-different" crowd, would you feel better with a "rare" turbo 5SFE or with a performance motor with the GE head that allows you to redline at 7200+, easily achieve ~300WHP with the possibility of hitting ~400WHP on short block?

Note: I'm rambling. I feel it necessary to fully inform noobs of daft ideas.

ciento44
12-19-2008, 03:10 PM
GODDAMN. I see this "try something different" arguement/reason/excuse everyday now, it seems. If you want something "different" or better yet, JDMtyteYO!, throw in a 2JZ :) It's difficult, but CAN be done and is WAY RADICALLY "different" and JDMtyteYO!

Do your research, man. If you think you can get 300-325 reliable HP (not talking WHP here as that is definitely impossible with your budget) with a budget of $2500 on a 5SFE, you are terribly mistaken. For a little more (~$3-3.5k), you can get a low mileage Gen2 3SGTE clip. With that, you can have up to 250 RELIABLE WHP on a basic bolt-on setup PLUS a better tranny (the word better doesn't really serve justice here as the E153 is 10-folds better) PLUS room to grow if needed. With $2.5k, I suspect you can probably put together a home-made turbo kit combining used OEM parts and hit ~180WHP reliably (this is slightly more what a stock Gen2 3SGTE makes). In my opinion, $2.5k on an econo-Camry motor to achieve stock numbers of another drop-in Toyota motor/tranny/etc that is superior in every way is failure to the max.

For all those who think a powerful, reliable, and cheap 5SFTE can be had, please stop your thinking and do some more research. It's damn near impossible and borderline idiotic. For the "want-to-be-different" crowd, would you feel better with a "rare" turbo 5SFE or with a performance motor with the GE head that allows you to redline at 7200+, easily achieve ~300WHP with the possibility of hitting ~400WHP on short block?

Note: I'm rambling. I feel it necessary to fully inform noobs of daft ideas.

How about you read his post before you start going off on your "5sfe sucks" speach again?

He is ALREADY running a 5sfte, it's been around for a LONG time, it HASN'T blown up, and he's had multiple drag passes, and it's obviously putting down enough power to snap his axles almost EVERY time.

I would bet all the money to my name at this exact moment that he would EAT a stock gen2 swap ALIVE.

He's talking about building his bottom end and getting some head work done for $2500. TO IMPROVE his existing setup. And then run more boost.

Gawddamn.

And your swap prices are HORRIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY, HILARIOUSLY wrong. We don't drive MR2s, sorry. We drive celicas. We have to source E153 trannies and get custom axles if we want to use it. We get ST185 clips because using MR2 clips is retarded for us, and needlessly expensive. Who in their right mind would pay $3500 for a 15 year old drivetrain? Seriously. There's a reason why the majority of the swaps here still run S-series transmissions.

You seem to completely ignore the fact that Manny and Shannon exist. You also seem to have NO concept of how LITTLE Shannon has in her setup. Shannon shows it's easy to hit ~300whp on a stock 5sfe block. So what's your point? If the 5sfe was so shitty, you'd think Hookecho's car would have blown up by now on a 100-shot, too!

WGAF about redline? It's about the powerband. Not the redline. If you're worried about a redline, then get a damn Honda.

I'm not even going to argue that stock vs. stock the 5sfe and 3sgte is a comparison. It's not. Add the "T" to the 5sfe and do a setup that has some thought in it rather than just thrown together by monkeys and actually TUNED (which no one does, and is WHY they blow), it becomes much more interesting.

I'm NOT bashing the 3sgte. For fuck's sake, i'm swapping.

But this one-sided bs is starting to make you sound like one of the cronies in Fight Club.

"It's name is 3sgte. It's name is 3sgte. It's name is 3sgte. It's name is 3sgte."

Open your damn mind, and spend some time looking around.

We've heard all these arguments before... it's been going on this board for years. Why you seem to take it so far to a 5sfe-bashing frenzy is beyond me. It's sad and it's not making ANYONE happy or grateful to you.

mr2trd3
12-19-2008, 05:40 PM
How about you read his post before you start going off on your "5sfe sucks" speach again?

He is ALREADY running a 5sfte, it's been around for a LONG time, it HASN'T blown up, and he's had multiple drag passes, and it's obviously putting down enough power to snap his axles almost EVERY time.

I would bet all the money to my name at this exact moment that he would EAT a stock gen2 swap ALIVE.

He's talking about building his bottom end and getting some head work done for $2500. TO IMPROVE his existing setup. And then run more boost.

Gawddamn.

And your swap prices are HORRIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY, HILARIOUSLY wrong. We don't drive MR2s, sorry. We drive celicas. We have to source E153 trannies and get custom axles if we want to use it. We get ST185 clips because using MR2 clips is retarded for us, and needlessly expensive. Who in their right mind would pay $3500 for a 15 year old drivetrain? Seriously. There's a reason why the majority of the swaps here still run S-series transmissions.

You seem to completely ignore the fact that Manny and Shannon exist. You also seem to have NO concept of how LITTLE Shannon has in her setup. Shannon shows it's easy to hit ~300whp on a stock 5sfe block. So what's your point? If the 5sfe was so shitty, you'd think Hookecho's car would have blown up by now on a 100-shot, too!

WGAF about redline? It's about the powerband. Not the redline. If you're worried about a redline, then get a damn Honda.

I'm not even going to argue that stock vs. stock the 5sfe and 3sgte is a comparison. It's not. Add the "T" to the 5sfe and do a setup that has some thought in it rather than just thrown together by monkeys and actually TUNED (which no one does, and is WHY they blow), it becomes much more interesting.

I'm NOT bashing the 3sgte. For fuck's sake, i'm swapping.

But this one-sided bs is starting to make you sound like one of the cronies in Fight Club.

"It's name is 3sgte. It's name is 3sgte. It's name is 3sgte. It's name is 3sgte."

Open your damn mind, and spend some time looking around.

We've heard all these arguments before... it's been going on this board for years. Why you seem to take it so far to a 5sfe-bashing frenzy is beyond me. It's sad and it's not making ANYONE happy or grateful to you.

Wow. I think you have just convinced me to swap a 5SFTE into my MR2 AND turbocharge the existing 5SFE in my Celica. Damn, thanks for opening my eyes to see outside the box. Hopefully I can convince my buddy to swap out his 2JZGTE for a turbocharged 1MZ, too.

BTW, the price I gave are approximations for clips (generally the easiest route when sourcing for a swap) which, if you don't understand, will include everything needed for a swap (motor, tranny, axles, wiring harness, ECU, etc) plus additional parts, ie body panels, lights, suspensions, brakes, etc. that can be sold if desired. At any rate, I would gladly spend $3,000 on a clip containing a low-mileage, performance drivetrain than to waste that money in polishing a turd. Ironically, you agree with me hence the reason you opted for the swap.

Definitely not knocking the 5SFE. The motor is excellent at what it was intended to do. That is to be a cheap, gawddamn reliable daily-driver, economical, low-maintenance engine for Toyota's small to mid size 90s line-up. I definitely have love for this motor as it has proven to me, time and time again, to be excellent at doing its job. Not part of the 5SFE's work description is making power and having sporty characteristics.

I can't wait to beat on stock Gen2 3SGTE-equipped cars with my 5SFTE! :) Monies well spent.

ciento44
12-19-2008, 05:58 PM
Wow. I think you have just convinced me to swap a 5SFTE into my MR2 AND turbocharge the existing 5SFE in my Celica. Damn, thanks for opening my eyes to see outside the box. Hopefully I can convince my buddy to swap out his 2JZGTE for a turbocharged 1MZ, too.

BTW, the price I gave are approximations for clips (generally the easiest route when sourcing for a swap) which, if you don't understand, will include everything needed for a swap (motor, tranny, axles, wiring harness, ECU, etc) plus additional parts, ie body panels, lights, suspensions, brakes, etc. that can be sold if desired. At any rate, I would gladly spend $3,000 on a clip containing a low-mileage, performance drivetrain than to waste that money in polishing a turd. Ironically, you agree with me hence the reason you opted for the swap.

Definitely not knocking the 5SFE. The motor is excellent at what it was intended to do. That is to be a cheap, gawddamn reliable daily-driver, economical, low-maintenance engine for Toyota's small to mid size 90s line-up. I definitely have love for this motor as it has proven to me, time and time again, to be excellent at doing its job. Not part of the 5SFE's work description is making power and having sporty characteristics.

I can't wait to beat on stock Gen2 3SGTE-equipped cars with my 5SFTE! :) Monies well spent.

Sarcasm isn't needed. For the last fucking time, i'm not saying it's a better option than the 3sgte. I'm just saying that it IS an option, that it HAS been proven that power can be made, and if done right, it IS reliable.

Intentionally taking everything out of context is highly immature and not needed in a thread such as this.

I'm aware of what a clip is. And i agree with you on this subject. But celica clips tend to be a lot cheaper than MR2 Turbo LSD clips. MR2 clips are a huge pain in the ass for us. Your price is easy ST205 clip territory.

And no.. i don't agree with you. I have my own reasons for swapping, and it has nothing to do with me not believing in the 5sfe. It's simply because i don't know the history of my car, half of the engine/wiring/electronics is ghetto-hacked together, and i really don't feel like chasing everything down. Also because since i became a part of the community over 5 years ago, all i've heard was "SWAP SWAP SWAP SWAP SWAP" and naturally, i got drawn into that. And also because i have a large amount of money already invested. But that's another story.

And it's also to help the community figure out how to make power and actually get respectable drag times for their power. Because quite frankly, i'm disgusted with how slow swaps seem to be. And i'm going to find out why, and then pass along the information to the rest of the community to try to help them out, so they DON'T get wasted by a B16 EG hatch with an ebay turbo setup and an FMU. YOUR community may be able to take something away from it, as well.


I can't wait to beat on stock Gen2 3SGTE-equipped cars with my 5SFTE! :) Monies well spent

Glad we agree on something. I'd say a $1500 5sfte beating a swap when done correctly costs closer to $4-5k, is quite the deal.


This thread was never supposed to be a 5sfe vs 3sgte thread. Simply to give the OP some options, HE gets to decide what to do with HIS car. Not you. Not me.

So please don't beat the dead horse anymore. It's not helping anyone, and you're making yourself (and probably me) look like an asshole.

mr2trd3
12-19-2008, 06:32 PM
So please don't beat the dead horse anymore. It's not helping anyone, and you're making yourself (and probably me) look like an asshole.

We're in this together, mang! All in good fun, that's all.

I don't quite know why swapped Celi's are having a difficult time at the tracks. Maybe it has to do with being wrong wheel drive? I know 3S-equipped MR2's can be quite deadly at the tracks, drag/auto-x/road course/etc.

On a side note, I think a small turbocharger on a 1990 Celica ST would be an awesome DD. The GT/GT-S models are just too damn heavy.

ciento44
12-19-2008, 06:48 PM
We're in this together, mang! All in good fun, that's all.

I don't quite know why swapped Celi's are having a difficult time at the tracks. Maybe it has to do with being wrong wheel drive? I know 3S-equipped MR2's can be quite deadly at the tracks, drag/auto-x/road course/etc.

On a side note, I think a small turbocharger on a 1990 Celica ST would be an awesome DD. The GT/GT-S models are just too damn heavy.

Haha... i DO apologize if i took you wrong... sounded serious, but if it was in fact in good fun, i hope i didn't offend or sound overbearing. :D

I'm not a very serious person. Ever.

My thought on the swaps being slow is party wrong wheel drive, spooling too fast for the weight transfer going the wrong way, and the AFM sure as hell doesn't help things. :hehe: They DON'T need to be spooling in 1st gear, that much is for sure.

If a 300whp honda can hit EASY mid 12s, i don't see why a Celica can't, and that's what i aim to find out.

From a "turn" standpoint... they're actually VERY good, for a FWD car. (Fail wheel drive, whatever you want to call it :P ) They had success in SCCA for years, even though they were never "The Platform to Beat." Grassroots Motorsports had great success with their 6th gen ST on a regional level, and there has been instances of them in the past being competitive on a national level. End result.. as good as an MR2? Definitely not. But way more forgiving, and some of us like a challenge. :D My car is not particularly a slouch in the handling department, but where it REALLY excels is how it'll compensate quite well for my mistakes. I'm no wizard behind the wheel, but if i overcook a corner, it's great at actually OVERSTEERING enough to scrub off the speed, then dragging itself out of the corner with NO understeer, whatsoever.

The turbo 4afe has been explored.... and honestly, it seems like an even worse idea than the 5sfte. :hehe: Weak rods. Although.... 180-190whp sure would be entertaining in an ST.

GT model isn't that heavy when you think about the torque a 5sfte can put out for cheap. Early GT coupes seem to weigh in around 2700lbs, depending on options.

The GTS.... is just obnoxiously heavy. I don't care what's in it. :wiggle:

CPincy
12-19-2008, 07:24 PM
How about you read his post before you start going off on your "5sfe sucks" speach again?

He is ALREADY running a 5sfte, it's been around for a LONG time, it HASN'T blown up, and he's had multiple drag passes, and it's obviously putting down enough power to snap his axles almost EVERY time.

I would bet all the money to my name at this exact moment that he would EAT a stock gen2 swap ALIVE.



Thank you at least someone knows what i was trying to say...im not sayin that a reliable turbo set up can be done for $2500 on a 5s...cause honestly it cant. my cost more than that but it IS reliable its been turbo'd for about 40,000 miles now...i was saying that it would cost about $2500 to build an existing 5sfte to be able to handle that power..now granted i have the ability to do it all myself and i have a good friend that works at a machine shop that can do the machining for practically nothing

ciento44
12-19-2008, 07:40 PM
Thank you at least someone knows what i was trying to say...im not sayin that a reliable turbo set up can be done for $2500 on a 5s...cause honestly it cant. my cost more than that but it IS reliable its been turbo'd for about 40,000 miles now...i was saying that it would cost about $2500 to build an existing 5sfte to be able to handle that power..now granted i have the ability to do it all myself and i have a good friend that works at a machine shop that can do the machining for practically nothing


Well.... shit. :p Now i'm going to have to disagree with you, too. :D

Nah, it's cool.

Like i said, we'll see how Shannon's car holds up.

CPincy
12-19-2008, 08:08 PM
And just to show the reliability of the 5sfte if DONE RIGHT.. yes mine has 186,793 on the motor
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h60/ctr94864/IMG00090.jpg

CPincy
12-19-2008, 08:27 PM
lol now that i put us crazy off topic im done now :bigthumbu

burnyd
12-19-2008, 08:29 PM
^^^ lol, thats prolly even better with the lower compression and boost, but have you had your car even dyno'd....


ciento when you say do not act like shannon and manny exists that like 2 people out of how many? Think of how many people have done a 3sgte swap and made 225-260whp with just bolt ons....

bottom line is its a economy motor with a restrictive head, it was never created to make power..... you can make power off of anything but whats a better swap is a 3sgte... no argument there.

CPincy
12-19-2008, 08:50 PM
^^^ lol, thats prolly even better with the lower compression and boost, but have you had your car even dyno'd....


hahaha yea exactly why its time for a rebuild...and unfortunately no..the closest place with a dyno to my house is like almost 2 hours away..but when im done with the rebuild i really have no choice but to get it dyno'd and im also gonna do a MS so if all goes well i'll do a write up for that

ciento44
12-19-2008, 08:58 PM
^^^ lol, thats prolly even better with the lower compression and boost, but have you had your car even dyno'd....


ciento when you say do not act like shannon and manny exists that like 2 people out of how many? Think of how many people have done a 3sgte swap and made 225-260whp with just bolt ons....

bottom line is its a economy motor with a restrictive head, it was never created to make power..... you can make power off of anything but whats a better swap is a 3sgte... no argument there.


There's a lot more people than that out there and you know it. I'm just throwing out more well known examples.


And of course.... a better swap is a 3sgte. Who the HELL would swap a 5sfe into ANYTHING?

burnyd
12-19-2008, 09:42 PM
There's a lot more people than that out there and you know it. I'm just throwing out more well known examples.


And of course.... a better swap is a 3sgte. Who the HELL would swap a 5sfe into ANYTHING?


maybe a huffy

91 Celica GT-S
12-20-2008, 11:24 AM
alright here goes the cliff notes of all this nonsense...
buy a honda we keep comparing our cars to hondas so go ahead and buy one
why? cause you want something easy and cheap
once you relize everyone else has a honda too just as fast as yours you want something rare
so you buy an st184 with the 5sfe and you throw a 3sgte head on it. wow your special
awe shit you didnt tune it well damn that was a lot of cash. you blow the motor for being cheap
im starting to get old and the g/f dont like me spending mad cash
alright lets just get a 2nd gen front clip (no mr2 rear clip too much work) were lazy now and are honda racing friends dont even help us anymore
not enough power lets get some bolt ons from ebay we hauling now
then you realize your tired of snapping axles
so what you do
you buy a damn minivan and shut the hell up with this retarded thread....

im just joking with you guys. i was saving up for a 3s swap and ended up finding an alltrac for less money than the swap would cost me so i jumped on that. everyone will argue this because we all have different amount of time money and resources available to us just do what works best for you.

lburner
12-23-2008, 02:26 PM
doo whatever works for u..