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View Full Version : 20 Valve 4A GE Black Top ??????



Fat head
11-24-2008, 03:26 PM
hey, i have a 1990 GT and i wanted to swap in 20 Valve 4A-GE Black Top, im not to sure where to start. Any general info like what transmission to use, any odds and ends i might need, money is not a problem i want it done right.

Thanks,
Eric

METDeath
11-24-2008, 04:20 PM
On topic:

You'd need at least new motor mounts, possibly even the support member, not sure which transmission you'd use though. However, I think you'd have to convert the front wheel hubs over to those off an ST, at which point you'd should convert all your hubs over so that you can move tires around on the car; since the the ST is a 4-lug and the GT is a 5-lug. I'm not sure on the spline count/size for the axles though.

Off topicish...

Since you have a GT the 4A-GE swap is a little unusual, typically people swap in a JDM 3S-GE or 3S-GTE. Since they pretty much use the same mounts, with the 4A-GE you'll have to change your mounts around, plus unless you have a coupe you'll be pulling around a heavier car than the A series normally is found in.

Most commonly the 4A-GE get's dropped in an ST, since it's already got a 4A-FE in it, and the mounts line up.

ciento44
11-24-2008, 04:35 PM
On topic:

You'd need at least new motor mounts, possibly even the support member, not sure which transmission you'd use though. However, I think you'd have to convert the front wheel hubs over to those off an ST, at which point you'd should convert all your hubs over so that you can move tires around on the car; since the the ST is a 4-lug and the GT is a 5-lug. I'm not sure on the spline count/size for the axles though.

Off topicish...

Since you have a GT the 4A-GE swap is a little unusual, typically people swap in a JDM 3S-GE or 3S-GTE. Since they pretty much use the same mounts, with the 4A-GE you'll have to change your mounts around, plus unless you have a coupe you'll be pulling around a heavier car than the A series normally is found in.

Most commonly the 4A-GE get's dropped in an ST, since it's already got a 4A-FE in it, and the mounts line up.


92-93ST is 5-lug....

But yeah..... i'd grab a cheap ST shell to do this swap in, or do the other Blacktop, the BEAMS. :D

Colossus20v
11-24-2008, 04:52 PM
You will have to change your motor mount to fit an "A" series motor, you will have to rewire as well. Use a transmission for an "A" series motor (C52 or C56). Get a front cut and you should be fine to swap everything over.

METDeath
11-24-2008, 04:57 PM
Yeah, basically, get a BEAMS if you want NA, or a 3S-GTE if you want turbo.

k.beaty
11-24-2008, 08:52 PM
if you want n/a get the third gen 3sge or the beams 3sge. they will put out more hp and torque and be a much easier swap. othewise you'll need new mounts and you'll have to swap hubs like eveyone else is saying. the ae111 also weighs much less than a celica so the 4age works well in it. however, since the celica is heavier the 4age will not do as well in a 5th gen.

imo, like METDeath said, if you want naturally aspirated, swap in the 3sge.

ciento44
11-24-2008, 09:14 PM
Well.... a base AE111 with the 4afe weighs 2300lbs.... The blacktop came in the BZR, which i believe was a little heavier. I honestly don't think that weight will be an issue at all.

Colossus20v
11-25-2008, 04:36 PM
however, since the celica is heavier the 4age will not do as well in a 5th gen.


It wouldnt have the same 1/4 mile times and it would be different. But the 4age has more HP than a 4afe. So saying that the 4age will not do well in a 5th gen is not really credible. I mean the 4afe would be fast in a go cart but slow in a camry.

k.beaty
11-25-2008, 04:50 PM
It wouldnt have the same 1/4 mile times and it would be different. But the 4age has more HP than a 4afe. So saying that the 4age will not do well in a 5th gen is not really credible. I mean the 4afe would be fast in a go cart but slow in a camry.


I didnt say it wouldnt do well. I said it wouldnt do as well, meaning that a 3rd gen 3sge or beams would perform much better in a 5th gen than a 4age.

20V Blacktop 4age -162hp.

3rd Gen 3SGE - 177hp
Redtop Beams 3SGE - 197hp
Blacktop Beams 3SGE - 207hp

ciento44
11-25-2008, 05:03 PM
It wouldnt have the same 1/4 mile times and it would be different. But the 4age has more HP than a 4afe. So saying that the 4age will not do well in a 5th gen is not really credible. I mean the 4afe would be fast in a go cart but slow in a camry.

I believe the debate is that the OP is talking about putting a 20v Blacktop in an ST184, not an AT180.

I still don't see the problem either way... it'd be easy to get a 90-91 GT down to AE111 BZR weight. It'd be easy to get it down to stock AT180 weight.


I didnt say it wouldnt do well. I said it wouldnt do as well, meaning that a 3rd gen 3sge or beams would perform much better in a 5th gen than a 4age.

20V Blacktop 4age -162hp.

3rd Gen 3SGE - 177hp
Redtop Beams 3SGE - 197hp
Blacktop Beams 3SGE - 207hp

Sure will. And cost more. The 3rd gen might be about the same, but BEAMS motors are pricey, and don't have much aftermarket support. :D

Colossus20v
11-25-2008, 05:11 PM
I believe the debate is that the OP is talking about putting a 20v Blacktop in an ST184, not an AT180.

:D
Well either way I guess its pointless. Doing a 20v in a GT or GTS to me is pointless because there are by far more options than what ST's have.

Oh and saying performing as well. is not beneificial either. I mean why not just say a NA 2jz would perform better than a 3sge in a 5th gen.

Sorry if I got this OT a little. The guy wanted to know what was needed to swap in a 20v blacktop and I believe that was answered already.

ciento44
11-25-2008, 05:15 PM
Well either way I guess its pointless. Doing a 20v in a GT or GTS to me is pointless because there are by far more options than what ST's have.

Oh and saying performing as well. is not beneificial either. I mean why not just say a NA 2jz would perform better than a 3sge in a 5th gen.

Sorry if I got this OT a little. The guy wanted to know what was needed to swap in a 20v blacktop and I believe that was answered already.

It's cool, i don't think anyone is mad. :wiggle:

I dunno.... i'd swap a blacktop 20v in a stripped GT, but that would be just to have something that sounds awesome and revs to the moon. But i agree, putting a 20v in a GTS would probably be slower than the stock 5sfe... heavy cars need torque.

Of course, an ITB 3sge could be fun, too.

Colossus20v
11-25-2008, 05:24 PM
Building a stroked BEAMS would be fun as well. 2.2l to have some torque but be able to breath freely and forever would be awesome.

That really is my only complaint about the 4age 20v is that it loves to rev, but starting off takes a little bit of time since it has not torque. Hopefully, a 7age 20v will be my solution to this problem. :)

ciento44
11-25-2008, 05:35 PM
Building a stroked BEAMS would be fun as well. 2.2l to have some torque but be able to breath freely and forever would be awesome.

That really is my only complaint about the 4age 20v is that it loves to rev, but starting off takes a little bit of time since it has not torque. Hopefully, a 7age 20v will be my solution to this problem. :)

Seriously.... please hurry up and finish this.... I want to see numbers. :bowdown:

k.beaty
11-25-2008, 06:29 PM
X2

Fat head
11-26-2008, 03:59 PM
k, thanks for the help i think i might go with the 3SGE Beams, any info on that?

k.beaty
11-26-2008, 04:06 PM
you will be able to use you're stock motor mounts, as for transmission you can mod the e153 tranny to work with FWD buy using some parts from the all trac and some from the mr2 tranny. run a quick search and you'll be able to find info on that.

ciento44
11-26-2008, 04:08 PM
you will be able to use you're stock motor mounts, as for transmission you can mod the e153 tranny to work with FWD buy using some parts from the all trac and some from the mr2 tranny. run a quick search and you'll be able to find info on that.


He can use his stock 5-speed tranny. S53 and S54 will both work, i would actually recommend S54 in this application, shorter gearing is better for n/a.

k.beaty
11-26-2008, 04:13 PM
yeah s54 woruld work, i wouldnt reccomend the s53 since it might not be able to hold the power. the only advantage to the e153 is limited slip. However either transmission will work.

ciento44
11-26-2008, 04:50 PM
yeah s54 woruld work, i wouldnt reccomend the s53 since it might not be able to hold the power. the only advantage to the e153 is limited slip. However either transmission will work.


S53 shouldn't have a problem with a stock BEAMS.... the motor MIGHT put out 180 to the wheels.... That's easily within S53 threshhold. The "number" assigned to S53 limits is closer to 300whp.

And MOST E153s don't have limited slip, and it would be a lot of money not very well spent to get one. You can get an aftermarket LSD for S54 and still be way under the price of an E153 LSD, and you wouldn't have to modify anything to make it work in your car.

E153 is really only useful, in my opinion at least, for turbo cars.


But it's just my opinion. :D