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polish dude
10-17-2008, 06:30 AM
i want to use my 5s in my alltrac. i just want to make sure my rebuild worked out. my 5s is in working condition so it would be great till i get my 3s with the t3/t4 got all cleaned up and ready to go. also lots of touqe and no hp should be great for winter fun.

my question is: will the alltrac tranny fit the 5sfe block. i know the bolts will fit but i'm worried about the right side of the engine where the diff is. i know that to fit the alltrac tranny on the 3sge one would need to grind the right side of the motor a bit. also i have walbro 255 in my alltrac. will the stock 5s work fine with it with out any fuel managment system.

just in case i push it a bit more: what size injectors are in the 5s? can i put the 440 from the 3s in it? how much boost will it take from the ct-26? 8lb should be cool i think.

burnyd
10-17-2008, 06:52 AM
instant failure......

but yes trans will bolt to bellhousing.... as far as the PP/clutch disc im not really 100% what you would do?

after you finish the intercooler piping, wiring and all the extra bs you will have to do its not going to be done cheeply... and who wants a 5s alltrac seriously man what are you thinking!!

celica91gts
10-17-2008, 07:16 AM
lol, thats so much trouble. you dont have another car you can drive till your 3s is cleaned up?

CriScO
10-17-2008, 07:35 AM
Yeah, it isn't simply a question of "will it bolt in." You would have to completely rewire the car. Reference the threads about swapping the other way around. You will have to do all of the same things. Then redo them to put the 3S back in.

I'm not trying to knock you, I'm all for unorthodox builds, but taking steps backwards is never a good idea. For instance, I'll eventually be building a 3S-FE for the coupe, just because I want to see what I can make that motor do. The cost will be ridiculous, especially since it will probably never see more than 180 horses. Imagine I swapped to a 3S-GTE temporarily while building that 3S-FE. That makes no sense. The car is already ready for the motor it will eventually have, changing it in the interim is pointless.

geebes
10-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Can I buy some weed from you?

ciento44
10-17-2008, 03:34 PM
Guys, hold up here....

Look at Supershannon's 5sfte. Now try and tell me that that wouldn't be fun in an alltrac. You need torque to get these heavy pigs up and moving, and a 5sfte would have NO shortage of that.

polish dude
10-17-2008, 04:57 PM
thank you for all your support.

the alltrac was burned totally. the body harnes is gone. so i'm swaping the harness from the gt. so there is no modifications needed to hook up the 5s and no i'm not turboing it. that's just a thought for later when my 5s will go in to my other gt.

also i dont know what kind of damage the the fire do the the body. i want to test it with the 5s so in case it'll start showing cracks it wont be after spending bunch of money on the 3s. i figured i'll beat the crap out of it during the winter and if it's running right i'll drop the 3s back in.

i'm just trying to avoind troubleshooting the swap of the 3s in to the gt harrnes, swap of the gt harrnes in to alltrac, bunch of burnt parts that might not work later.

this way i'll do it all one step at a time.

Lonestag
10-17-2008, 08:10 PM
Hmm,
5S w/ awd.
Jack it up and you will have a truck.

Although, if you REALLY built the 5S until it had about the stock Hp of the 3S, that would be a vary interesting vehicle...

burnyd
10-17-2008, 11:36 PM
Guys, hold up here....

Look at Supershannon's 5sfte. Now try and tell me that that wouldn't be fun in an alltrac. You need torque to get these heavy pigs up and moving, and a 5sfte would have NO shortage of that.


no, because the modifications it would take to get a 3sgte to that range would be simple and easier to put a motor that is ment for that car.

Shadowlife25
10-18-2008, 12:17 AM
Stay on topic fellas. This isn't a "Give your opinion " thread. Give relevant info .

He's asking for information, if you have it give it. If not, try to enjoy seeing where this leads. :)

polish dude
10-18-2008, 03:51 AM
Stay on topic fellas. This isn't a "Give your opinion " thread. Give relevant info .

He's asking for information, if you have it give it. If not, try to enjoy seeing where this leads. :)

thank you


i'm almost done taking apart the gt. alltrac is an empty shel now, all it needs is some sandblasting which i hope to do soon and some paint.
once it's painted it should take less than 48 hours of hard work to run again.

first alltrac with 80hp lol. i've taken my gt offroading before so it should be fun in the winter.

polish dude
11-20-2008, 06:09 AM
so most of you were so busy making fun of my idea and missed the fact that 5s wont fit the alltrac tranny. atleast not with out shaving off the entire right side of engine. i'll post pics when i'm finally done.

burnyd
11-20-2008, 06:48 AM
ugh the bell housing should work....are you saying when you tried to land the motor it wouldnt fit?


Its a really bad idea ether way dude.

vip09
11-20-2008, 07:00 AM
ugh the bell housing should work....are you saying when you tried to land the motor it wouldnt fit?


Its a really bad idea ether way dude.

If you look at the back side of the 3S-GTE block, you will notice that the ribs are shaved flat so that the transfer case of the Alltrac will clear.

On the 3s-ge and 5s-fe blocks the ribs on the block are large and make contact with the transfer case of the Alltrac transmission.

We had to grind the ribs on my 3S-GE block to make it fit.

burnyd
11-20-2008, 07:40 AM
^^ You are referring to the ribs were those support looking beams connect to the back of the block right? Theres two of them that connect from the transfer case almost right to the back of the block below the intake manifold? If so yes I see what your saying..... but ether way worse idea ever.

vip09
11-20-2008, 07:52 AM
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/vip09/Alltrac/facebook%20albums/STP60177s.jpg

Shadowlife25
11-20-2008, 08:46 AM
Dan, seriously, stop bashing or don't post. Our job is to help out, not slam his idea. He's going to do it anyhow, so just help him along. Like Vip09 showed it's commonly done in the reverse situation, so why not?

Polish Dude: Why not just use the 5s tranny and not have to shave anything? Is it that you want to drive the rear wheels too?
Maybe just FWD would be more convenient since it's only a temporary thing. You'll still be able to turbo it, and you'll have less drivetrain loss.

Just a thought.

METDeath
11-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Mario has a really good idea there, just swap in the 5S and a S53/S54 trans to somewhat simplify the install, you'll still have to rerun a bunch of wires, or get creative and make an adapter harness for your 3S-GTE harness to 5S-FE ecu, which will basically take either time or money.

Shadowlife25
11-20-2008, 01:26 PM
The harness should be no problem, it's really just the reverse of the standard "swap" wiring. Should come out to be something like 13 pins iirc. It really isn't difficult and he has to do that portion anyhow, right?

I would, however, suggest the s54 over the s53 simply because it uses the dual cone synchro setup and will be a better platform. If you have an easier time accessing an s53 though, go for it.

Met or Vip: Do you guys remember offhand if there are any electronics that get a signal from the tranny? I don't remember any on my 'Trac, but I could be wrong.

METDeath
11-20-2008, 02:32 PM
S54 has electronic speedo, iirc, but that's interchangeable with the mechanical speedo

andy
11-20-2008, 03:40 PM
yeah dood, make it fwd for awhile would be easier. just pull the driveshaft and your done! to do that swap you would need a 5sfe north to south crossmember.

METDeath
11-20-2008, 04:10 PM
Now that I think about it, wouldn't there be an axle/hub issue? You may have to swap over the front wheel hubs, I'm not sure. I just remember everyone saying to do an E153 swap you'd need change to alltrac front's and do the mr2/trac axle hybrid

polish dude
12-17-2008, 11:59 PM
i know it's been a while but Iíve been busy

facts:
i'm a student.
i support myself.
i spent most of my money on my alltrac project so i'm broke now.
i have a 5sfe in very good condition.
i dont have a working fwd tranny since the parts for my rebuild project become absolute
i have an extra 4wd tranny
alltrac body only burnt in the front so the back is just fine
the body has been sand blasted and primed. (Personal favor, didn't pay a penny for it.)

now:
Instead of having a gt with out a tranny and a burnt alltrac i'll have a awd gt till i graduate and than we'll see.


Current problem:
the clutch from the 5sfe doesn't fit with the alltrac tranny.
i have an extra clutch set for the alltrac. but the flywheel doesn't fit on to the 5sfe.
Mixing wont work either cause the pressure plate from the alltrac wonít fit on to the 5sfe flywheel.
Also clutch from the alltrac is to big for the pressure plate from the alltrac.

What combination of parts could work. Please help.
Part numbers or yeah and engine it came from. Please.

RedRkt01
12-18-2008, 12:06 AM
eeeesh. I dunno if that'll work.

90CelicaST
12-18-2008, 01:26 AM
Well, they say that when you do a 3SGTE w/ GT tranny you use the 3SGTE Flywheel, pressure plate and the GT clutch. So since you have a 5SFE w/ Alltrac tranny you *should* be able to use the 5SFE Flywheel, pressure plate and the Alltrac clutch?

Luni
12-18-2008, 03:28 AM
You could use an ST165 flywheel and clutch setup. It would bolt to your existing alltrac tranny, and it has the same flywheel bolt pattern as the 5S crank.

That way youd have the right bolt pattern and be able to use the correct clutch, pressure plate, and TOB for your application.

And if you ground the ribs down on the block it would bolt up. I dont think it would be too horrible as a daily driver, the Rav4 has this sort of setup stock, so, why not in an alltrac.

I dont agree that Id do it myself, but if you have to, and this is your path, then go for it. Cause you can 5SFTE it later on, or just swap back to 3SGTE, or use your 5S block for a stroker build based on the 3S stuff later on.

Some food for thought there.

RedRkt01
12-18-2008, 03:32 AM
I back up Luni on the comment about the Rav4. The Celica's overseas chassis cousins in the Carina/Corona. There are several models that sport 4WD 3SGEs.

polish dude
12-18-2008, 06:27 PM
You could use an ST165 flywheel and clutch setup. It would bolt to your existing alltrac tranny, and it has the same flywheel bolt pattern as the 5S crank.

That way youd have the right bolt pattern and be able to use the correct clutch, pressure plate, and TOB for your application.

And if you ground the ribs down on the block it would bolt up. I dont think it would be too horrible as a daily driver, the Rav4 has this sort of setup stock, so, why not in an alltrac.

I dont agree that Id do it myself, but if you have to, and this is your path, then go for it. Cause you can 5SFTE it later on, or just swap back to 3SGTE, or use your 5S block for a stroker build based on the 3S stuff later on.

Some food for thought there.

about the st165 is that for sure.
that would be the 3sgte first gen. would it really have have a different bolt pattern than 3sgte second gen.

polish dude
12-18-2008, 06:31 PM
Also Iíll try my aftermarket clutch that is still in the burnt 3sgte. It might have a smaller diameter. i hope.

andy
12-18-2008, 06:47 PM
yur clutch wont be different. i had southbend make me a custom clutch for my fwd to 3sgte setup. the 165 bits is what you need.

polish dude
12-19-2008, 05:37 AM
yur clutch wont be different. i had southbend make me a custom clutch for my fwd to 3sgte setup. the 165 bits is what you need.

question stand:

st165 beeing the 3sgte first gen alltrac till 1989 right?

polish dude
12-23-2008, 01:40 AM
bump

please more info on the st165 clutch. year? anything specific?
it is over $200 for the set up so i'd like to be sure before buying.

also does anybody have it for sale.

90CelicaST
12-23-2008, 01:42 AM
ST165 is the (86- GT4)88-89 Alltrac; 1st gen 3SGTE

polish dude
12-23-2008, 01:59 AM
ST165 is the (86- GT4)88-89 Alltrac; 1st gen 3SGTE

how is it that the part numbers for the clutch disc and pressure plate and flywheel are the same from 88 to 93

polish dude
12-27-2008, 03:44 AM
little things i find out as i go on with my project.

carpet fits
front shocks are the same
wire harness is the same
shifter and e-brake also fit

polish dude
01-09-2009, 05:14 AM
that's a tight fit. lol

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/32/l_5e2c0f1f240a451db705e0cd3cf0e5b2.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/15/l_44034cf43c994b27ab9472477b29503b.jpg



oh and i had a local machine shop drill out the 3s flywheel to fit my 5s crank.

Ryan
01-09-2009, 06:16 AM
So what is the progress on this? How much more work do you have to go?

polish dude
01-09-2009, 06:55 AM
i have to finish the brake system.
install the steering colum.
drop the engine in.
and assamble the little things. (lights, hood, doors, hach, dash, seats, radiator)

lots of busy work that's why i'm taking a week vacation from my work so i can work on it non stop. lol

Ryan
01-09-2009, 06:56 AM
Nice man, I am glad this is working out, it kind of caught my eye because I think this is the first time this has ever been done.

Keep us updated.