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View Full Version : double tb intake manifold "Diablo project"



beingblueeyes
09-25-2008, 11:54 PM
one thing that always bothered me about my itb build is how long it took to build and how some couldnít build it and if they did there is always that problem of wiring our "special" tps sensor up to the new tb (s) so here is another intake manifold I just started working on last night at work. Itís based on a nearly stock 5s intake manifold. Here is the first drawing I did just to get the idea down. Alls thatís going to be needed is some cutting and alm welding (out sourced) i named it the "Diablo project" because when i get done the motor with the intake manifold on it should look like its has horns

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/lastscan1.jpg
it uses a cut off tb part of the plenum welded to another 5s intake manifold and controlled vea cable off the stock tb, this way you have a total of 100mm worth of butterfly valve and all stock sensors

As of right now it looks like Iím going to need two 5s intake manifold due to the fact when Iím building it I want to run my car. Iím guessing/putting the cost of this project at 100.00-120.00 to complete. Will keep you guys posted on updates

Colossus20v
09-26-2008, 04:31 AM
Sounds interesting. I wonder how much power will be added if any? Have you been able to dyno your current setup?

glenn
09-26-2008, 08:33 AM
that sounds pretty sick lol i cant wait to see how it turns out

MCcelica
09-26-2008, 08:32 PM
That is an interesting idea for sure. If I were to do something like that though I'd also bore out the intake manifold a bit for more flow...

Ryan
09-26-2008, 08:43 PM
^just polish it....

ģusty
09-26-2008, 10:19 PM
wow pretty sweet idea, if you wanted to go further, you could get the 2nd TB to come on at a certain rpm

beingblueeyes
09-26-2008, 10:54 PM
ģusty, i was thinking the same thing about a rpm switch but dismissed the idea because it would be (in my .02) more trouble then a cable (shorts and running wires)

Colossus20v, no dyno yet, im just building parts because i think its fun, that and the head gasket went on the camry last week and i just rebuilt the head (light p+p, milled .040, new valve seals) alls thats holding me back from putting the 5s back together is the rings i order are in trans..

i would go out tommarow after one of the intake manifolds if the weather isent to bad but they are calling for a noreaster so im not sure about it yet

Lonestag
09-27-2008, 01:14 AM
I've been thinking about a way to use 4 5S stock TB's to go ITB, but this idea had crossed my mind as well. I think iusing linked cables would be a great way to go. I've also considered leaving a little slack on the line so the second would only start to open at around a third throttle, no elegant, but it might help keep some low end torque at the expense of the second TB only opening 2/3 of the way.

Ryan
09-27-2008, 03:24 AM
Thats not a bad idea..

beingblueeyes
09-27-2008, 04:17 PM
I've been thinking about a way to use 4 5S stock TB's to go ITB, but this idea had crossed my mind as well. I think iusing linked cables would be a great way to go. I've also considered leaving a little slack on the line so the second would only start to open at around a third throttle, no elegant, but it might help keep some low end torque at the expense of the second TB only opening 2/3 of the way.

thats not a bad idea at all

85gtsblackman
09-27-2008, 07:16 PM
just make a custom manifold and run a weber 40/40

glenn
09-27-2008, 08:08 PM
lol another person into weber carbs you should talk to this kid i know with a crx thats all he knows is weber weber

85gtsblackman
09-29-2008, 05:20 AM
i know

weber
holley
rockchester
carter
solex

want me to go on?

i can also talk about megasquirt too

grayscale
09-29-2008, 05:07 PM
Hmm, I think we talked about this a long time ago. Take what I say with a grain of salt, I don't remember all the technical jargon, but basically Nuke said there were problems with it due to the shape of the stock manifold-designed for one tb- and something about each cylinder drawing the a/f unevenly, air velocity at higher rpms, and so on.
Anyway, I'm not saying forget it, just dropping some speculation into the conversation.

beingblueeyes
09-29-2008, 08:38 PM
I know the intake runners when they enter the plenum favor the stock tb location, im hopeing with some porting of that to even it out some

glenn
09-30-2008, 01:41 AM
i know

weber
holley
rockchester
carter
solex

want me to go on?

i can also talk about megasquirt too


well i'm glad you know those and esp that you megasquirt

85gtsblackman
09-30-2008, 04:26 PM
thank you sir

in reply to grayscale and greenmachine about air flow, all he would have to do is after he made the custom manifold is flow bench it

Lonestag
10-01-2008, 07:14 AM
V6 Camry/Solara/Avalon 1MZ-FE
TB Bore= 60mm
Interesting note is that the whole throttle body is identical to the 5sfe including flange/bolt pattern, tps, etc. except for the cable attatchment which faces the opposite direction.
(Thanks to 88GT2GTS for measurement info)


I just had a bit of a brainstorm, let me know if this is a real possibility.

If indeed we could use 2 throttle bodies mechanicly linked together with the cable, would it save a lot of work to use the throttle body from a 1MZ-FE so that the two cable attachments would be close to being in line with eachother and open the same way?

Just a thought.

grayscale
10-01-2008, 03:55 PM
Suppose you could, good thought.
Although I did have one member go out and buy the 1mz tb a while back and he reported it was not the same, though the pics he showed me did not look like the correct tb.

beingblueeyes
10-11-2008, 01:21 AM
ok all update time :)
since my 5s is down for a rebuild i just went out and got an extra intake manifold and cut the tb plate off of it and the end plate off of the one i am going to be useing
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00919.jpg

it should look/sit like this after its welded
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00921-1.jpg

got it welded and it looks great (big thanks to Rick T.) :wiggle:
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00924.jpg

runing totle cost:
intake manifold 35.00
alm. welding 10.00
=45.00


whats left:
buy another 5s tb and mod it
finish rebuild
tune
enjoy

greenmachine87
10-13-2008, 03:37 AM
Im just curious on what your gains would be if you made more topend or just faten the power ban . It would be cool to see some dyno results! I glad to see people try and tweak power out of these motors. I really interested on how it turns out cant wait to hear on how it changes the car.

beingblueeyes
10-13-2008, 06:13 PM
i think its going to be more of a mid/top end thing more then anything but its just a guess, i wount know what it would really do until i slap it on and fire it up

grayscale
10-14-2008, 03:50 AM
If you want to host your pics here that would be great. I'd like them to be a good bit bigger for better viewing, maybe a few more shots of the finished one too.

beingblueeyes
10-15-2008, 10:19 PM
ill pass on hosting the pics here, but ill deff make them bigger next time i update :burn:

grayscale
10-16-2008, 01:13 AM
ill pass on hosting the pics here, but ill deff make them bigger next time i update :burn:
Wha? If you want to forward them to me I can upload them for you. It's really easy to post them here when you do.

Ryan
10-16-2008, 03:09 AM
Any more updates?

glenn
10-16-2008, 03:17 AM
lol hell all my pictures are hosted from here and it's a bit tricky at first but you get the hang of it lol

beingblueeyes
10-19-2008, 01:21 AM
well i cleaned it then painted it, will install in car to marrow and hope to fire motor tommarow night

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00932.jpg
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00934.jpg

Ryan
10-19-2008, 02:35 AM
That is cool as hell! Yo figure out the throttle linkage and all that good stuff?

beingblueeyes
10-19-2008, 07:36 PM
yep heres another pic of todays work. alls i have to do is fab one more link and the "DIABLO proj." will be done
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00935.jpg

on a side note, i tryed to start it and it didnt run dose anyone have a good pic on how the cam timming marks line up, alldata didnt have any good ones and neather did my toyota book

Ryan
10-19-2008, 09:21 PM
They should both be straight up as well as the crank pully lined up to tdc....

beingblueeyes
10-20-2008, 10:25 PM
i was more or less talking about the timming marks on the cams, buts it cool i just for got to plug in the dizzy after i installed it

Shadowlife25
10-20-2008, 10:42 PM
BlueEyes: Is it going to be possible to have this hooked up to a WB O2 to see how it affects A/F readings?

I know that at least on the 3s-GTE cylinder 3 tends to run lean due to the position of the intake runner, I'm curious as to how this will affect things. (I know this isn't a 3S ;) )

Nice work all around, and I commend your efforts. :D

Ryan
10-20-2008, 11:06 PM
Post a vid of it running please:)

beingblueeyes
10-21-2008, 01:22 AM
will hook up zetronics wide band after im done working on it (need to do frontpads and rotars, install new header and fab new 2 1/2 od exh. then i will try for some vid

Shadowlife25
10-21-2008, 02:21 AM
Looking forward to it. :D

Ryan
10-26-2008, 11:43 PM
This is exciting......:)lol

beingblueeyes
10-29-2008, 07:13 PM
ok my new 2 1/2 cat should come in tomorrow so i should have all the piping fab welded and installed by Saturday some time. Iím going to run it with just the stock tb for the first hundred miles or so then tune for the 2ed tb. is extra fuel needed after milling head .040 also what should my timing be set at on the dampener using 91 oct?

Ryan
10-29-2008, 07:15 PM
You could slightly advance it at the disty...Just a few degrees

ciento44
10-29-2008, 07:49 PM
ok my new 2 1/2 cat should come in tomorrow so i should have all the piping fab welded and installed by Saturday some time. Iím going to run it with just the stock tb for the first hundred miles or so then tune for the 2ed tb. is extra fuel needed after milling head .040 also what should my timing be set at on the dampener using 91 oct?

Extra fuel won't be needed, you'll need to go with higher octane, which i think you've got covered. With it milled, and only 91 octane, stick with the stock 10 degrees.

balang_479
10-30-2008, 07:48 PM
Wow, im always incredibly intrigued by your work.. keep us posted...

Lonestag
10-31-2008, 12:04 AM
I can't wait to see this thing in action.

MrWOT
10-31-2008, 04:35 AM
Err, why dont you make things vastly simpler and join the 2 ends with 2 180* turns and a y-pipe, then use a single throttle over the valve cover. Otherwise throttle control is going to be a nightmare.

grayscale
10-31-2008, 03:40 PM
Err, why dont you make things vastly simpler and join the 2 ends with 2 180* turns and a y-pipe, then use a single throttle over the valve cover. Otherwise throttle control is going to be a nightmare.
Eh, don't sweat it, it's a good beginner project. Trial by error and all.

beingblueeyes
11-08-2008, 02:39 AM
ok ive put 278 miles on the new motor and its much funner to drive with the new pipeing and cat and the milled and light p and p head. as the plan now stands im going to rig up my other tb and link it to the oem tb and run with wide band and tune with vafc will post pics and air fuel from tune tommarow sometime

Ryan
11-08-2008, 02:45 AM
Thats kwl as hell man! keep us updated!

beingblueeyes
11-08-2008, 09:34 PM
ok hooked up the other TB and let me just say, having a all the stuff I hade before I installed the 2 tb intake manifold was fun but this intake manifold takes it to another level, I have it hooked up so there is some slack so below 20% open the oem tb is the only one working but over 20% the secondary kicks in and the motor wakes up and gets pissed. I attached the cable from the secondary to the oem mod bracket vea welded washer and bolt and nut and washer. i have it tuned on the rich side (will post air/fuel later) and it runs vary vary well. after letting it cool i pulled all the plugs and they are all that nice tan marshmallow color.
cost:
intake manifold= 35.00
alm. welding= 10.00
tb= 6.00
tb cable= 4.00
=55.00

Now for the pics
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00938.jpg
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x297/cascadedhart/DSC00940.jpg

Shadowlife25
11-08-2008, 09:38 PM
Nice job. Again :)

Ryan
11-08-2008, 09:49 PM
Damn thats sweet!

Ryan
11-08-2008, 09:50 PM
What did you do with the itbs?

joe's gt
11-08-2008, 10:56 PM
what did u use to link the two throttle cables? a close up pic of that would be sweet. Nice work, anxious to see if there are any performance gains.

grayscale
11-08-2008, 11:34 PM
Just curious, how do you put oil in?

beingblueeyes
11-09-2008, 02:28 AM
Thanks all for the comps
92-gt I still have the itbs and am thinking about selling them
Joes gt in the 2ed pic you can see the cable running from the 2ed tb to the first, I used a cruse control cable form a camry and cut it down then I threaded the cable around the washer I welded to the oem tb the used a bolt and washer and nut to clamp it together giving enough wiggle room so I can open the oem tb 20%
Grayscale I take out one of the two 12mm bolts (I only use 2 bolts to hold it on and a oem tb gasket) and loosen the other bolt and rotate the tb counter clockwise at the fire wall

Ryan
11-09-2008, 02:42 AM
Thats awesome!!

Colossus20v
11-12-2008, 05:23 PM
That would look pretty mean with some cone filters on the ends.

Nice job. Do you think you will get any Dyno time to see how much of a benefit it is? Are you monitoring the A/F ratio at all?

jaydog82
11-13-2008, 04:11 AM
man thats cool, please post the dyno after you do one. i never thought of this before and i have an extra intake manifold laying around.

jaydog82
11-13-2008, 04:17 AM
come to think of it i have another tb too. let me know hoe it works i mite be interested in doing something like this, with your approval of coarse.

andy
11-13-2008, 05:20 AM
man your threads rock! your like the opposite of ricksta. way to rock. ill keep checking back. post up some vids

Ryan
11-13-2008, 06:25 AM
^lawl,

Ya man, you are really ingenious! Keep us posted and keep up the great work!

beingblueeyes
11-16-2008, 03:18 AM
Colossus20v: i donít have room under the hood for cone air filters but it would look great if i did. i tuned it with a wide band (you do need tuning with this set up). After tuning i havenít checked the air/fuel again just the plugs. I might check it again after I install a 255 lph pump

jaydog82: you donít need my approval man I hope you do build it, I just like knowing i contributed

andy10889: ill post vids asap maybe some time later this week (motor reving and maybe a rpm/speedo of a first gear pull)

92-gt: thanks man, i think next thing ill do is maybe a intake cam swap using a mod 3sge intake cam. You wouldnít happen to know were I can find the cam specs for a gen 1 or a gen 2 3sge?

joe's gt
11-16-2008, 06:07 PM
awesome. keep us updated on how much performance gains there are.

Ryan
11-17-2008, 12:09 AM
this might help...
http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6477&highlight=3sge+specs
http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17078&highlight=3sge+cams

I dont know if that will help... You might ask korean joey..I think he would know.

Ricksta
11-17-2008, 12:50 AM
i did not read the 2nd page, but it seems like a waste of time to me since your going to be trying to suck in more air then your stock intake will be able to handle. i dont see nothing but little gains coming from this.

Ryan
11-17-2008, 06:21 AM
i did not read the 2nd page, but it seems like a waste of time to me since your going to be trying to suck in more air then your stock intake will be able to handle. i dont see nothing but little gains coming from this.


I am pretty sure it is probably not bone stock. :brick:

beingblueeyes
11-17-2008, 10:20 AM
hey 92-gt thanks for doing that leg work for the links and Ricksta is 110% correct, i lost a ton of power and am now pushing 5 hp at 5500 rpm, all the shit i have in my sig. isent really done to my car/motor alls i have is a type r sticker and a red shift knob :burn:

grayscale
11-17-2008, 11:16 AM
I think what Rick is trying to say is that your stock intake tract will not be up to snuff at moving that much air.

ciento44
11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
I think it was more he was just trying something new...

It's a healthy motor, was just rebuilt.

And i'm very impressed with Shannon's setup, but i'm not convinced that those are typical results just yet. Would you or Shannon mind making another thread that shows everything that came with the kit, what kit it was, and what other accessories were needed for tuning? Because if you can tell me that I, too, can put down this power on a stock motor, and have it hold together, then i'm ditching the 3sgte right this instant, and i'll just do this with a built bottom end and push some real PSI.

Ryan
11-17-2008, 04:59 PM
No problem man, I just dont think you would throw this double TB setup together with a stock intake mani(without porting and polishing it) I mean look at the itbs you did...That was pretty in depth.

presure2
11-17-2008, 06:46 PM
I think it was more he was just trying something new...

It's a healthy motor, was just rebuilt.

And i'm very impressed with Shannon's setup, but i'm not convinced that those are typical results just yet. Would you or Shannon mind making another thread that shows everything that came with the kit, what kit it was, and what other accessories were needed for tuning? Because if you can tell me that I, too, can put down this power on a stock motor, and have it hold together, then i'm ditching the 3sgte right this instant, and i'll just do this with a built bottom end and push some real PSI.
shannons kit is VERY basic.
ebay turbo (t3/4 "57" trim knockoff) and manifold adapter, tial 38mm wastegate, huge FMIC, 460cc injectors, SAFC neo for tuning, devils own WI kit, and the associated lines, piping and couplers to connect it all.

i dont see how its not typical, i made 235whp with the '27 peashooter 2 years ago, before i really knew anything about tuning, and before the WI install.
IMO its right in line with what it should be making.
would it make the same power in a 5th gen 90-91? no, they dont have a knock sensor.
but any 92+, with the better electronics should be able to come damn close to those #'s.

ciento44
11-17-2008, 07:10 PM
shannons kit is VERY basic.
ebay turbo (t3/4 "57" trim knockoff) and manifold adapter, tial 38mm wastegate, huge FMIC, 460cc injectors, SAFC neo for tuning, devils own WI kit, and the associated lines, piping and couplers to connect it all.

i dont see how its not typical, i made 235whp with the '27 peashooter 2 years ago, before i really knew anything about tuning, and before the WI install.
IMO its right in line with what it should be making.
would it make the same power in a 5th gen 90-91? no, they dont have a knock sensor.
but any 92+, with the better electronics should be able to come damn close to those #'s.

Well... definitely something to take into consideration, then.

Thanks! :D I didn't realize that she was using a NEO, i guess.

Ricksta
11-19-2008, 11:03 PM
I think what Rick is trying to say is that your stock intake tract will not be up to snuff at moving that much air.

+1

i dont see really any gains coming from this. you need a bigger intake all together. and its not like hes going to be running a turbo, so his motor is going to have the same sucking power as it did prior to his intake mod. so with both ends wide open and a stock intake mani im seein a good 5hp gain comin at ya homey.

now what would really intrest me is this setup on an rmr intake manifold. have a turbo going from the exhaust port and a turbo on the intake port. now that would be badass!

joe's gt
11-19-2008, 11:37 PM
lol. i didn't even realize this was on an NA car. Still kinda cool nonetheless. Yeah, def. no performance gains then. i guess if u got the time to kill and the welding skills and its not too expensive why not. I would like to see a more professional, flow tested version of this on a turbo car tho to see if there are any performance gains.

kungFUBAR
11-20-2008, 02:47 AM
Wouldn't this help more with throttle response than overall power?

glenn
11-20-2008, 06:29 AM
wow is it just me or is this dude getting flamed fuck it's his idea and he likes it so what... hell if we all listened to everyone we would all be doing the same shit all the time besides i think it's cool looking and a great way to show off engineering skills and it's pretty much like putting a bigger tb on it just a different way

Shadowlife25
11-20-2008, 08:59 AM
I actually see some benefits here.

Better throttle response

More even distribution of air through the intake runners and therefore to the cylinders, with a ported and tuned intake manifold that was capable of flowing more air, I see the potential for a hp gain.

ciento44
11-20-2008, 05:17 PM
I actually see some benefits here.

Better throttle response

More even distribution of air through the intake runners and therefore to the cylinders, with a ported and tuned intake manifold that was capable of flowing more air, I see the potential for a hp gain.


Bingo... especially depending on the rest of the motor...

This would be interesting for a dual nozzle nitrous setup... hrmmm.... Might have to modify the manifold further to make it really work, but it would help out against the uneven flow vs. the stock setup.

jaydog82
11-20-2008, 10:17 PM
this is very interesting to me. seeing as i have most of the stuff to do a similar project, if this one works.

BrunoDrundridge
03-23-2015, 05:47 AM
Hey OP,

Can you link the photos again? Dead Links now..

(Ignore this - work has photobucket blocked)

Murgatroy
03-23-2015, 11:27 AM
Since this thread is seven years old, and the OP hasn't been active in four, I would say that it is unlikely.