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greenmachine87
09-19-2008, 06:06 PM
I finished my build yesterday and took the celica out to brake in and i went threw a quart of oil. I know fresh motors burn oil but not that much. I m not sure exactly what it is if its the rings or in the head but it only smokes under hard acceleration and deceleration. I need to run a compression test to see what my compression is.Any ideas will be appreciated. Thanks Mitch

Colossus20v
09-19-2008, 07:43 PM
what engine and what build?

greenmachine87
09-19-2008, 08:04 PM
5s, i did port work, cams, higher compression, valve job, block bored .040 over all the bolt ons you can get for the 5s

Lonestag
09-20-2008, 12:00 AM
So, hows it feel? I'm thinking about doing a build like that, I would love to hear some feedback from sombody who has done it.

greenmachine87
09-20-2008, 12:52 AM
It feels good, power is decent but it does not start moving until around 4000 rpms

Hiko
09-20-2008, 01:49 AM
Did you fill it up to the dry fill specs? I just checked the specs, and the difference is half a quart from drain w/ filter to dry specs, and a full quart more from drain w/o filter to dry. Sometimes it's the little things that are easiest to miss.

And let's see a dyno once you're broken in!

EDIT: Whoops, I decided to post without reading the whole original post like a noob. I don't know how much oil a fresh engine is supposed to burn, but I cannot imagine it's that much. I'd give it a while and see if it levels off, then start making assumptions (rings, valves).

Murgatroy
09-20-2008, 06:25 AM
There are two schools of thought behind a fresh build.

There is the school that believes in beating on an engine from the word go. Don't take it easy on it, drive it like you stole it.

Then there is the right way (:hehe:.) Which is taking it easy on the motor for the first 1000 miles for a good break-in.

The rings need to seat regardless. If the rings don't seat, you will never get proper compression and you will continue to burn oil. This simply means that yes, you are gonna use a lot of oil from the start, until the rings seat. It differs with each engine how much oil you will go through. I have built different engines to the exact same specs before and seen one use more oil than the other.

Give it at least a 1000 miles before you start to worry.

However, I recommend oil changes at least every 500 until it gets broken in.

85gtsblackman
09-20-2008, 08:52 AM
hes right, i know a guy on the 3rd gen boards his 22re didnt fully seat untill 12,000 miles :eek:

greenmachine87
09-20-2008, 08:34 PM
thanks for the input i will continue to break it in ive been taking it out every day. I do plan on having it dyno tuned if it all works out well

MrWOT
09-20-2008, 09:04 PM
You DO want to run the engine as hard as you ever will during initial breakin, but you need to give it frequent filter changes run it with the highest zddp rated oil you can for breakin, giving it full rpm-range runs up and down, down is especially important because of the vac it pulls, but that's only for the first 20 mins or so of the engine being operated. After that, you change the filter, then you run it as normal until 500, then you change it to whatever oil you're going to run for the rest of it's life, then 2000 then normally after. This is assuming "normally" will involve lots of varying load and rpm conditions, but you don't have to flog it hard all the time. Things to avoid are idling and steady rpm.


And you there! ^^^^^^^ Dyno or ban! :D under vac? Check your valve seals.

ciento44
09-22-2008, 11:15 AM
What everyone else said. It's going to smoke and burn oil like a mofo until those rings seat.

Beat on it until it stops.

yankee7568
09-22-2008, 12:34 PM
What my buddy does and it never fails is crank the car up and get the RPMS around 3500 and then let it be for a few hours..........

ciento44
09-22-2008, 01:45 PM
^That doesn't really get the full effect, in theory. Car should be under load, see a variety of conditions, so on and so forth.

burnyd
09-22-2008, 05:27 PM
well gl on the na build Im not trying to down you or anything but I remember when play did a similar build up and only made 10whp more and 5 ft lbs less.

ciento44
09-22-2008, 05:32 PM
well gl on the na build Im not trying to down you or anything but I remember when play did a similar build up and only made 10whp more and 5 ft lbs less.

I think he'll gain more than that on the cams alone. It's been proven quite a few times in the last couple months that a webcams regrind will net you that much....

It'll need some tuning, but i think it'll lay down decent numbers considering what he's starting with.

If he truly used higher compression pistons along with his head being milled like i think it is, and everything else he's been naming, i would expect at least a 30-40hp gain, and a better powerband once it's been tuned.

burnyd
09-22-2008, 05:50 PM
^^ who knows, I hope he makes some decent power well see, I am actually excited to see the dyno once the motor breaks in.

greenmachine87
09-22-2008, 07:06 PM
i just milled the head down dont have higher compression pistons, I have put about 60 miles on it and burned 4 quarts of oil. I can feel more than 10 ponies

ciento44
09-22-2008, 07:40 PM
^Have you beat on it yet? Seat those rings, man.

greenmachine87
09-22-2008, 08:29 PM
ive gotten on it a couple times but haven't really beat on it

85gtsblackman
09-23-2008, 06:24 AM
your not using synthetic are u?

what oil and weight are u running out of curiosoty

greenmachine87
09-23-2008, 06:17 PM
conventional 10w30

schnee
09-24-2008, 02:40 PM
Try this:

Engine Smoke is black – Running Rich (too much fuel, not enough air).
Engine Smoke is gray – burning oil
Engine Smoke is white – Coolant entering combustion chamber often VIA head gasket. Pressure test cooling system and check all plugs. The “cleanest” plug is washed clean of all ash is often cylinder with coolant leaking into it. White smoke will become worse when coolant is full and engine is at normal operating temperature.
Check for combustion by products in coolant.
Pressure test cooling system and inspect for coolant leaking into cylinder.

(Step 1) Smoke happens
When engine is started – Valve Seals (allowing oil to travel down guides into combustion chamber)
When engine is accelerated – Worn rings (Perform compression test)
When engine is de-accelerated – Worn Valve Guides
Slow oil consumption (no smoke) – Worn oil control rings
Engine has blowby – Remove oil cap while engine is running, if gray smoke is seen it is a major ring problem or a hole is in the piston.
If plugs are fouled with oil, the cylinder has a major oil consumption problem (rings or damaged piston)
If plug is washed clean it is a head gasket issue.

(Step 2) Engine Compression Test
Check cylinder compression in all cylinders.
Warm engine up, Remove all plugs, Disable fuel system and ground or disable ignition system, block throttle plates open, install battery charger.
Install pressure gauge.
Crank engine at least 3 times per cylinder and check reading on pressure gauge.
If two adjoining cylinders are low, it’s due to a blown adjoining head gasket.
If one cylinder is low, perform a wet test.
If compression test shows high compression on all cylinders, it is due to carbon buildup
If compression test shows low compression on all cylinders it is due to incorrect valve timing (jumped time)

(Step 3) Wet Test –
Add 2 squirts of oil to the low cylinder
If cylinder readings increase on wet-test, its worn rings, if not, its either the intake or exhaust valve seating (or in rare cases a hole in the piston). Perform a combustion leak testing.

(Step 4) Combustion leak testing
Bring cylinder to TDC
Install leak tester
Listen for leak
If air is heard coming out of tail pipe, it is an exhaust valve-sealing problem (seating problem)
If air is heard coming out of the throttle plates, it is an intake valve-seating problem
If air is heard out of the dipstick or the oil cap, its rings or a bad piston
If bubbles come out of radiator, it’s a blown head gasket.

If this doesn't isolate the problem......
I suspect you have a ring gap problem or broke a ring or two on installation.
Did you fit oversize rings?
Are the rings the right way up?
Did you measure them in the bore? - critical for decent power in any engine!
Just loosen your oil cap - if you see smoke, I'm right.

If you start a new engine and let it idle till hot and then let it cool, do it again and it's broken in, drive it normally from then. It only takes a few minutes for everything to seat.

greenmachine87
09-24-2008, 08:44 PM
It smokes the whole time the engine is running, a little at idle until it warms up, more under hard acceleration, the most under deceleration.

Hookecho
09-24-2008, 10:52 PM
you're burning way to much oil. either you have a really bad valve seal leak, rings are bad, or a head gasket leak around one of the oil guides and the oil is leaking into the combustion chamber. i'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but did you buy the correct pistons and rings for your overbore. sometimes the part stores fuck up and order the wrong stuff. you gotta check behind them. also if there were any metal shavings still left in the head after the polish then that could very well destroy a valve seal. i didn't burn much oil at all when breaking my motor in and i have pretty much the same setup as you do minus the overbore. 4 quarts in 60 miles is a definate issue. i would not drive the car until i problem solved the oil leak.

greenmachine87
09-26-2008, 03:08 AM
yes the pistons and rings are the correct ones. I'm going to get a compression tester soon and i will be following schnees steps. Ill keep you guys posted

greenmachine87
09-28-2008, 05:43 PM
I have found the problem I ran the compression test and my comp was between 135 140
the minimum is 142 I added oil in the spark plug hole and it went up to 150. so its safe to say I screwed something up when I put the rings on so next week i will start to take it apart and see where I f d up at. Thanks for all your help

Hookecho
09-30-2008, 01:39 AM
did you stagger the ring gaps when you installed them on the pistons?

schnee
10-01-2008, 07:08 PM
No worries, if you were in town I'd come over & help

Just take the head and sump off. You can then push the pistons/rods out.
Use an old piston to push the naked rings a few inches down into the bores and measure the gaps. If the gap is wrong you will never make power.

The rings are normally staggered at 90 deg around the piston. The marks on the rings always face upwards.

Hookecho
10-09-2008, 04:06 PM
any new developments?

crash60068
10-10-2008, 07:39 AM
what engine you got???

ciento44
10-10-2008, 03:57 PM
5sfe

beingblueeyes
10-11-2008, 01:20 AM
did you stagger the ring gaps when you installed them on the pistons?

was you psi the same in all cyl.? is so im thinking this ^^^ also

METDeath
10-11-2008, 01:59 AM
Compression tests are listed at the top of this page.

greenmachine87
10-13-2008, 03:20 AM
sorry I havent been around my computer latley but to answer your questions I did stagery the rings according the diagram that came with my rings.I did measure the ring gaps with a feeler guage. Yes my compression was all within 5 psi. I figured out after talking to the local machine shop that got my rings for me they told me that the rings were total seal gapless rings and from what I hear you need gas ported pistons so it expands the rings. I have ordered my knew rings that would have came with my pistons If I had got the piston and ring combo.Hopefully we have nice enough weather so I can tear the head off andthe oil pan.I will keep you posted on how it goes and maybe ill get a knew camera to get some pics.

beingblueeyes
11-09-2008, 02:14 AM
any updates?

greenmachine87
11-21-2008, 05:14 AM
no got kicked out of my garage so i will have to wit until spring when its nice. I dont want to risk getting rust in my motor so i wont open up until spring. But I am going with a different set of rings from clevite

schnee
11-21-2008, 07:29 AM
Spin it over every couple of weeks or the bores will rust, you can take the plugs out if you like. Also good to discharge the battery and recharge it every month or it will go stale.

beingblueeyes
11-21-2008, 11:20 AM
no got kicked out of my garage so i will have to wit until spring when its nice. I dont want to risk getting rust in my motor so i wont open up until spring. But I am going with a different set of rings from clevite


dam i was looking forward to hearing about it running befor winter, maybe it says in your sig but what ST are you in?

greenmachine87
12-05-2008, 03:58 PM
illinois, I would have liked to beable to drive it around more but things dont always work the way id like

BiscutWheels
12-06-2008, 02:40 AM
Proper Break-In Procedure... This has worked for me with 430+whp EVO 8, 400+WHP B18C1, Turbo 2ZZ-GE, 400+WHP '07 STI, My 5S-FE, My 22-RE, My 7A-GE, 185WHP 1NZ-FE..... etc...

First Crank:
Ensure firing order is correct, no miss fires, no leaks, sounds like it's running properly.
Warm up till 130 deg.F, shut down. Let cool untill at room temp.

Second Crank:
Warm up untill full operating temperature (fans kick on), shut down. Let cool untill room temp.

DRAIN OIL REMOVE FILTER
FILL WITH CLEAN OIL AND FILTER
(this step is crutial!!! if you don't all of the start up lube will be running around in the engine, not good. it is meant for start up only, not engine running.)

Third Crank:
Ensure everything is running properly, then drive gently for first 20 miles or so. LIght throttle get everything working.

20-250 miles, no more than 35 mph, vary the vacuul level of the intake manifold (very quick movements of the throttle to ~50% and back to cruise. This will change the pressure in the cylinder to help set the rings.

25-750 miles, no more than 65 mph with gradual RPM, no hot dogging it. Again vary throttle position to change up the vacuum the cylinder sees.

750-1000 miles, given that everything is running properly, drive it like you stole it. Tune, full throttle, full load, gradually move through full boost (if applicable).

1000 miles, check torque specs. Change oil and filter, have fun.

Nate