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MrTurrari
06-30-2008, 02:09 AM
I'm seeing a lot of posts (on other boards) with people asking how to make power on a 5SFE and getting some pretty unhelpful responses. So I put this together to maybe help them out and thought I would post it over here on Celicatech too:

Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction

First let's just get this right out in the open. NA power is never cheap and it is not something you can just throw together expecting great results. You can't just turn up the boost to hide mismatched parts or poor design like many of the turbo guys do. The benefits though are quick throttle response and predictable, consistent power which is very desirable at the limits. The power comes from the combination of all the right parts and synchronicity of design so everything is going to have to be working together to give you a great result.

Ok so where do you start? As has been said by myself and others many times, "Always start with the cams". I'll give TomsMR2 credit for spreading that very important point. :D More then anything else, the cams determine where your torque will be and how much of it you will have. The cams are responsible for the highest torque peaks you see in any dyno graph. Everything else, valve size, valve angle, ports size and shape, whatever is all secondary to this. These other things are not going to be significant road blocks until you are trying to get all of a motors potential and we are going to be no where near that. The problem is you need to plan ahead so your cams match your ultimate goals. Don't buy a mild set of cams and expect them to be able to take you much past 150rwhp.

The second most critical part is the header. A good header will take torque from places you don't need it and add to places you do. Pipe diameter and primary length are the two most important things to look for although you should also make sure the pipes are mandrel bent with smooth transitions and a good collector.

The third most important is the exhaust. Mainly it just needs to be smooth and not too restrictive or too big at the RPMs where you want to make power.

For practicality I am going to split 5SFEs into 3 groups:

Mild Build

First group is the mildly built 5SFE. 99% of all current 5SFEs fall into this category. Cams are either stock or mild enough not to require tuning (Webcam 294 grind equivalent) or fuel system modification. These will have all bolt-ons, just the stuff you find from board vendors or on ebay. They would include the basic I/H/E (intake/header/exhaust) and sometimes things like a shaved head or a lightened flywheel. We have all seen these builds producing everywhere from 110-145rwhp and are often still reasonable gains for the money.

For this level a header with 1-3/8" to 1-5/8" primaries and 28" or longer runners will probably give you the best gains. Generally a 4-2-1 header will give you less of a peak but a broader power band if that is what you want. Avoid really short runners and anything with 1-7/8" or larger outside diameter primaries. Those would put the torque gains beyond the power range of the cams. The exhaust should be at least 2" up to 2-1/4" OD and be as smooth and high flowing as possible. Mandrel bends are best. A stock turbo exhaust works ok at this level and if you need a CAT to pass inspection then get a high flow one to put somewhere before the muffler.

If you pick your parts right you can spend less then $1000 and gain more then 30rwhp which puts you right up there with the gen2 3sge but with more torque. Focus on the cams, the header and the exhaust. All other mods at this level are minimal gains.

(Bare minimum)
Delta cams, Colt cams, Teds Cams or Webcam 294: $200-600
Shims to install cams: $0-140
Header: $150
Exhaust: $100-600

Performance Build

The second group is for 5SFEs with street performance cams. On an NA anything above the Webcam 294 with more lift (up to 9mm) or duration up to a 101 grind or 272 advertised duration in my opinion would be in this group. These require larger injectors and tuning to be safe. They also generally require upgraded valve springs (3SGTE for rev1 or 2JZGTE for rev2) because of the extra lift. Check your coil bind and if you don't have 0.360" travel from the base circle then upgrade them.

The header needs to be something a little more purpose built but some of the ones you can buy will do. Runners can be a little shorter but I wouldn't go less then 24" and the primary diameter can be a little bigger if you want more top end. 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" diameter should be good for this level. Power will move up closer to red line between 5000-6000rpms so you will want a 2-1/2" high flowing exhaust.

You don't have to raise the red line or do any bottom end mods to have usable power but at this level it is something to consider because with these cams you will able to use it. If you already have a piggyback then it is an easy thing to overclock the 5s ECU and retune. It actually got rid of some of the querkiness I had with the larger injectors. The only concern is the rod bolts when you start going past 6500rpms. It is a good idea if you exceed this to grind the crank and put in 3s rods or find an upgraded 5s bolt (no one has found some yet that I have seen for a reasonable price except maybe the slightly stronger later model 5SFE ones from Toyota).

This is also the level where some other mods are going to start to have a greater effect like having a custom intake manifold, bigger throttle body, head porting, larger valves and higher CR. Again if you pick your parts right you can get some decent gains for reasonable money and still have a little room to grow. Since no one has dynoed one of these yet I can only guess on power levels. Probably 150-180rwhp depending on what other supporting mods are done. The highest on record 5SFEs fall somewhere in between Mild and Performance because they had the fuel control but only mild cams. A 150rwhp or higher 5SFE should be able to be built for for less then $2000 if you find the right deals and install everything yourself.

(Bare minimum)
Webcams 577 or 101 grind: $600
Shims to install cams: $0-140
Valve springs: $50-100 plus a head gasket if you have to pull the head to install them
Header: $150-300
Exhaust: $100-600
295cc or 315cc Injectors: $50-100
Fuel Controller: $250-700
Wideband O2 (if you want to tune it yourself): $250-450
Tuning (on a dyno if you need someone else to tune it): $100-400

(Going to town)
3s rods: $200-500
Shaving the head (poor man's CR increase): $40-160
Custom Pistons (rich man's CR increase): $650
+1mm valves: $400-600
Porting $0-800
Rebuild costs: $300-500
Custom Intake manifold: $200-1000
60mm Throttle Body: $100

Racing Build

This is where things start to get serious and parts need to be custom made. All the things that uninformed people always list as needed to get power from a 5SFE seem to fall into this. :p Cams at 280 advertised duration or higher with lifts from 9mm on up, shimless buckets, double valve springs, oversized valves, professional head work, EMS mandatory, forged rods, custom high CR pistons, upgraded ignition, high flow oil pump or dry sump, balanced bottom end, light weight everything, custom header, custom intake manifold, you name it. Racing is expensive so be prepared to empty your wallet but the sky is the limit. If you really want to build a 5SFE to its potential then contact me and I can help you figure out what you need.

I know this is a pretty general overview but it should be a good start for someone. Helpful comments or questions are welcome in this thread but if you want to expound the glories of the engine swap or forced induction please put it somewhere else.

Thanks,
MrTurrari

Edit: Updated for accuracy 09/19/10

hemlocke
06-30-2008, 03:01 AM
Well said. I think this constitutes a nice starting point for an NA 5SFE discussion.

CriScO
06-30-2008, 04:26 AM
:bigthumbu You're the man!

grayscale
06-30-2008, 06:49 PM
Very nice. I'm glad to finally have some one with tried and true experience here. Once this thread has been viewed enough I will sticky it.

Question: how do you feel about shaving the block instead of the head?

beingblueeyes
06-30-2008, 09:29 PM
great job

ciento44
06-30-2008, 09:42 PM
MrTurrari,

Got any recommendations on what piggybacks/ems to use on these various builds? Either in your own experience, or what others doing these builds have used?

I know it's fairly universal, but it'd be nice to see your input, considering you've been there, done that at this point. :)

METDeath
06-30-2008, 11:01 PM
Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky

PS grayscale, have you moved yet or still in Atlanta?

MrTurrari
06-30-2008, 11:11 PM
Thanks guys.

Question: how do you feel about shaving the block instead of the head?
The 5SFE has a close to zero deck height so you can't shave the block very much before you start having piston to head contact. It's just easier and cheaper to shave the head.


Got any recommendations on what piggybacks/ems to use on these various builds? Either in your own experience, or what others doing these builds have used?
I am using an SMT6 and really like it. It is a little sensitive to noise but once I put on OEM spark plug wires it settled down. The SAFC-II, SAFC-Neo and Emanage will get you by, especially if you have a rev2 with the knock system. The SMT6, SMT7 and Emanage Ultimate have timing control which could be useful on a rev1 to make a little more power or make it a safer tune. With the rev2 the timing control isn't much use because the computer undoes your changes in most cases. I might try pulling some timing in places once I go turbo though to give the ECU a better starting point.

I am finding, with the rev2 at least, that an EMS is not needed until you get to a much higher level. If you were trying to squeeze every last bit of power out then an EMS would be the way to go. I have to tell you though that once I over clocked my ECU, even with the bigger injectors and piggyback, it behaves as good as stock.

METDeath
06-30-2008, 11:17 PM
And a side note, the 90-93 Hot-Shot headers (http://www.hotshot.com/Hotshot_site0706/hsheaders7_06/TY3029.html) are now on sale.

greenmachine87
07-02-2008, 07:53 PM
where do you get the 17 mhz crystal from?

ciento44
07-02-2008, 08:19 PM
where do you get the 17 mhz crystal from?

My local Radio Shack carries them.

MrTurrari
07-02-2008, 08:38 PM
I ordered mine through a local electronics supply shop who made a big order with Digi-key. More details in this thread:

http://www.celicatech.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34405

N.W. 93 GT.
07-03-2008, 04:27 AM
And a side note, the 90-93 Hot-Shot headers (http://www.hotshot.com/Hotshot_site0706/hsheaders7_06/TY3029.html) are now on sale.
how do I contact hotshot. no info on your link

lburner
07-03-2008, 05:20 AM
how do I contact hotshot. no info on your link

http://www.hotshot.com/Hotshot_site0706/Products_new0706%20menu/product_hsmenu_toyota.htm

Hookecho
07-07-2008, 10:33 PM
Very nice. I'm glad to finally have some one with tried and true experience here. Once this thread has been viewed enough I will sticky it.

Question: how do you feel about shaving the block instead of the head?


beat ya to it pimp! :) no since in delaying the inevitible. besides, i haven't been around for a few weeks so i needed to flex a little.

yeah, shaving the head is more practical with our motor. it's also good to have a little milled off the block so that you get a good seal on the head gasket. especially if you use a metal one. i actually had an extra .010'' milled off my head a couple weeks ago. so i'm at a total of .050'' shorter on the lid now. also disassembled the block and had it line bored then had it balanced. i didn't do that on the rebuild a couple years back and wished i had. so since i decided to do a little more headwork i figured, what the hell.

Ads28
07-07-2008, 11:29 PM
very nice post :), readin all that makes me want to rip apart my engine haha...im comming to a cross road real soon, its either the 3s swap, or a N/A build

hemlocke
07-08-2008, 12:34 AM
Hook, I thought you were going V-Weight?

beingblueeyes
07-08-2008, 02:03 AM
beat ya to it pimp! :) no since in delaying the inevitible. besides, i haven't been around for a few weeks so i needed to flex a little.

yeah, shaving the head is more practical with our motor. it's also good to have a little milled off the block so that you get a good seal on the head gasket. especially if you use a metal one. i actually had an extra .010'' milled off my head a couple weeks ago. so i'm at a total of .050'' shorter on the lid now. also disassembled the block and had it line bored then had it balanced. i didn't do that on the rebuild a couple years back and wished i had. so since i decided to do a little more headwork i figured, what the hell.

so what are you at for a CR now with the totle being .050"?

extremeskillz
07-08-2008, 03:14 AM
awesome writeup

Hookecho
07-09-2008, 09:47 PM
so what are you at for a CR now with the totle being .050"?

right at 10.5:1cr if not a hair over. with an .040in mill i was just a fraction under 10.5:1cr.

Hookecho
07-09-2008, 09:50 PM
Hook, I thought you were going V-Weight?

nah, i came to my senses. i decided to put that motor in a camaro.

hemlocke
07-09-2008, 10:26 PM
Good for you, man. If I was going to do an import with a V-8, it would be an S-13 0r 14 and an LS-1, or better.

93bottlefedGT-S
10-01-2008, 06:38 AM
MrTurrari and Hookecho,

Would there be any benefit to running a SAFC-II or NEO on a mild street built 5SFE or would it just be pointless?

Reason I ask is i picked up a SAFC-II from a buddy of mine driving a gs-t eclipse for a decent price and was wondering if it would have any benefit for me? If not i'll sell it! I have everything with it, box plastic wrapping all the wires, and even the lil screen cover that he never took off!

Hookecho
10-03-2008, 08:44 PM
yeah, it would net you around 7hp if properly tuned. you should definately put it to use.

93bottlefedGT-S
10-05-2008, 03:04 PM
sweet... imma jump on that this week at my local shop and have them tune it for me!!

Toyota_JDM
12-31-2008, 05:50 AM
what kind of exhaust are you talking about for a "mild build"? in my case, i have a 5sfe in the st184 celica gt... as many Non-all trac/GT4 owners know, it's really hard to find any aftermarket parts for the celica st/gt/gt-s. therefore, i was curious what you ment by that...as in a custom built exhaust system or is there an aftermarket one you know of?

-also (sorry if it's a stupid question...but i've gotten mixed answers and just need this straightened out) since the celica gt has virtually the same chassis as the all trac...will an aftermarket exhaust system compatible for the all trac bolt onto a gt?

MrTurrari
01-01-2009, 02:53 AM
what kind of exhaust are you talking about for a "mild build"? in my case, i have a 5sfe in the st184 celica gt... as many Non-all trac/GT4 owners know, it's really hard to find any aftermarket parts for the celica st/gt/gt-s. therefore, i was curious what you ment by that...as in a custom built exhaust system or is there an aftermarket one you know of?
Unfortunately I'm not really familiar with Celica aftermarket exhausts. It's the size of the pipes that matters most though. Next would be the smoothness because a crimped pipe acts smaller and so does a restrictive muffler or cat. Length is kind of set by how long your car is but if you want to play with that it will probably have to be by trial and error.


-also (sorry if it's a stupid question...but i've gotten mixed answers and just need this straightened out) since the celica gt has virtually the same chassis as the all trac...will an aftermarket exhaust system compatible for the all trac bolt onto a gt?
I doubt it would be bolt on but I bet it could be made to fit. Maybe someone who has done it will chime in.

Shadowlife25
01-01-2009, 03:11 AM
It won't work as the routing that each systems piping takes is vastly different. (angles...)
If you are going to spend a few bills, custom may be the route for you. Find a manifold catalytic converter and muffler of your choice and have a local shop put it together for you.
I only suggest this as it may actually be cheaper than picking up a specific kit simply to tear it apart and have it put back together. :)

Toyota_JDM
01-01-2009, 07:34 AM
yeah i was thinking that custom is the best route. thanks for the information, i appreciate it. thanks to you guys, i now have the answer i was seeking!

Shadowlife25
02-27-2009, 10:58 PM
Mr.Turrari, we miss you! Come back.... :D

celicaturbo700
08-23-2009, 08:31 PM
It won't work as the routing that each systems piping takes is vastly different. (angles...)
If you are going to spend a few bills, custom may be the route for you. Find a manifold catalytic converter and muffler of your choice and have a local shop put it together for you.
I only suggest this as it may actually be cheaper than picking up a specific kit simply to tear it apart and have it put back together. :)
im goin custom for mine.. 2.5 from the header back

dirtykong
02-18-2010, 07:07 PM
i cant find 5sfe cams anywhere but on ebay they have 3sge and gte cams for $99

burnyd
02-18-2010, 07:15 PM
^^ I think crane makes Cams for 5sfe, 3sge cams will not work on a 5s head ... if you look at the Ge/GTE heads and a 5sfe head youll realize right away the difference since its a slave cam design.

dirtykong
03-02-2010, 05:56 PM
what is a good cheap header and where do i find one

hungstar
03-29-2010, 06:32 AM
thanxx for that turari , now i know a little more of what to do if im goin to get some power for my car.

Unarmed
04-10-2010, 06:15 PM
Just out of curiousity, are there any 3sge heads that can be fitted to a rev. 1 5s. Gonna have to pull the head soon for a bad valve stem seal, and was going to be replacing some other stuff while I was in there being as shes at 230k and never had the head off.

Grot
04-10-2010, 07:38 PM
Short answer. Yes. 86-89 3sge

There is a thread on how exactally to do it. i cant find it at the moment

EDIT:

Heres one:

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17078&highlight=5sge

Heres the other:

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38644&highlight=5sge

Celicadirtracer
06-20-2010, 04:56 AM
What about stock manifold as we can't run headers is there any difference from one stock one to the next

Murgatroy
06-20-2010, 05:46 PM
There are two factory 'headers' that fit the 5SFE, the Rev 1 3SGE header off of a 4th Gen Celica GT-S and the `97?-`99? Camry with a 5SFE.

Celicadirtracer
06-20-2010, 06:52 PM
Tahts cool seems the camry header would be easier to locate but is ther a performance gain in the earlier one to warrant a harder search?

Ghost
11-03-2010, 11:15 PM
hey mrTurrari, ur pm box is full. any chance u have a list of the parts you are using or planning to use. my first step is to source and buy all the parts, before i take out my engine and rebuilt it. i plan on replacing everything i can replace with better stuff.

cotyb1
05-26-2011, 03:05 AM
would a safc-2 work on my 90 celica because im not sure where the mafs is at or if i have one

Unarmed
06-01-2011, 02:22 AM
I'm running a header on my 90 gt-s and noticed little to no difference in performance. It sounds faster tho...
also running a K&N filter, and a glasspack muffler on stock piping w/ resonator. Its pretty quiet.

Unarmed
06-01-2011, 02:24 AM
If ya want 5s power without turbo, I'd suggest the 3sge head. You can find them in a you pull it yard. You'll need at minimum the head, intake manifold, and throttle body, timing covers, the dizzy and possibly more too.

if you want the headache you can make the stock 5s ecu work, but you have to modify the throttle body, and the distributor and run a custom setup to activate the tvis system (or delete the tvis)

Or you can just take the entire 3s topend, w/ the timing covers, sensors, dizzy, wiring harness, ecu, maf, ect. and put it on the 5s block. basically like swaping in a 3sge without having to remove the block.

Probably your best option, may have to solder some wires but better than the ghetto method of using the 5s ecu and stuff. Oh also if you go the 5sge route the cam grinds will seem slightly more mellow than in the 3sge due to the extra displacement, and it will push the torque curve slightly lower in the rpm range than a 3s (maybe 200-400 rpms). needs more lift/ duration to have the same powerband.

when I rebuild my 5s I'm probably going this route w/ 272 cams, oversized valves, and a port and polish. then again I'm also crazy and don't give a rats ass about idle quality

Unarmed
06-01-2011, 02:37 AM
Or you could always supercharge or use a 100 shot :)

Legacyofdan
06-01-2011, 03:47 AM
supercharger is forced induction...just saying.

Unarmed
06-01-2011, 03:32 PM
true enough, but its not a turbo. figured it was worth mentioning.

MrTurrari
06-02-2011, 11:04 PM
If ya want 5s power without turbo, I'd suggest the 3sge head.
Sorry but this kind of post is the exact reason why I made this thread. Because people like to make the idea of swapping heads and rewiring the engine bay sound simple and inexpensive when it is nothing of the sort. These kind of things also do not buy you any performance by themselves. If you build a 5sge and actually want it to perform better then a 5sfe you need a whole 3sge swap and a whole bunch of custom mods. Whatever head you choose determines 95% of the other parts you must use. You need all the electronics, sensors, ECU, and everything that plugs into it. You also need rods and custom pistons. So the only parts you keep from your 5sfe will be the block and crank and in the case of a 5sge your flywheel and transmission. You can also use the 5s oil and water pumps but you should at least upgrade the oil pump unless you are starting with a rev2 or better yet use one from a 98+. If you cheap out and use the 5s rods you will likely have a rod failure down the road because of the bolts and if you use stock 5s pistons you will loose compression which will translate into less power not more and you will have an interference engine.

In my opinion it is far easier an more economical to build a 5sfe to perform like a 2.2 liter 3sge would. I mean you are going to have to replace all the parts with performance ones anyway so why not just use what you have? The hardest part is upgrading the intake manifold because you have to go custom. Just look at the performance build I list at the beginning of this thread and add in the "going to town" parts. I am building my second one of these now and doing it on a budget that is less then most 3sgte swaps. The first one I built is being turbo charged but it is very impressive even without the turbo.

Luni
06-03-2011, 12:33 AM
Its not impressive. Not a all. Dont listen to him. Hes a 5SFE loving hippie.

BonzaiCelica
06-10-2011, 10:09 PM
get a 3rd gen 3sge which are dirt cheap. Or better yet buy a 3sge beams redtop. I have one myself and you will not be disappointed. Now finding a good quality used Helical LSD is going to be another thing. Get your hands on a quaife helical lsd. Brand new they cost around $1,100

Luni
06-11-2011, 12:52 AM
get a 3rd gen 3sge which are dirt cheap. Or better yet buy a 3sge beams redtop. I have one myself and you will not be disappointed. Now finding a good quality used Helical LSD is going to be another thing. Get your hands on a quaife helical lsd. Brand new they cost around $1,100

But then thats not getting more power out of a 5sfe. That's not what this thread is about.

BonzaiCelica
06-11-2011, 02:39 AM
ya but honestly how much N/A power do you think you can get from a 5sfe. About 30 hp if even that. You can get a 3sge beams into your engine bay for probably $1,000 cheaper and with another 30 hp on top of your high powered N/A 5sfe. Its a fuel economic engine for crying out loud. Not worth doing a full out build at all. At that rate your 5sfe won't pass smog anyways no matter what state your in, it will only pass visual.

Luni
06-11-2011, 02:49 AM
Actually I think we have seen over 170 at the wheels on a 5s for less than a G. Not to mention your price is skewed cause there's wiring involved in a swap. The swapper has to either do that or pay for it to be done. Not to mention freshening up the engine (gaskets, seals etc) costs more. I honestly don't like the 5s either but Jeff (mrturrari) has done a lot with one for not very much. And I've driven his car and it's powerful for a 5s. It moves. This thread is there to give people an option. If they want to build their 5s they can. If they want to swap they can.

BonzaiCelica
06-11-2011, 09:58 AM
no way 170 at the wheels I call bs. 4th gen 3sge can make 170 whp in stock form.

So your telling me you've seen someone put on an additional 65 hp in N/A form? Do you have specs?? I'd like to see it.

T-spoon
06-13-2011, 03:53 PM
ya but honestly how much N/A power do you think you can get from a 5sfe. About 30 hp if even that. You can get a 3sge beams into your engine bay for probably $1,000 cheaper and with another 30 hp on top of your high powered N/A 5sfe. Its a fuel economic engine for crying out loud. Not worth doing a full out build at all. At that rate your 5sfe won't pass smog anyways no matter what state your in, it will only pass visual.

What do emissions have to do with it?

jaydog82
06-13-2011, 04:49 PM
iv gotten a 5s up to almost 150 hp for pretty cheap, 2rev head with a port n polish and head shave- cold air intake-cat back and header- 30 degrees of timing-along with a full rebuild and a stage 1 clutch. i never had it dynoed, but there was a very big difference from stock.

Luni
06-13-2011, 05:53 PM
I guess I was wrong, mrturrari said 147 to the wheels.

Anyway hes aware that he can do an engine swap or this or that. That isnt the point of this thread. Wanna talk about your beams, or 3SGE? Go start your own thread.

Hookecho
06-13-2011, 06:10 PM
Go brag about your beams in another thread.

This is a 5sfe thread.

MrWOT
06-13-2011, 08:55 PM
I have yet to see a cam'd 5S with a good header/collector. N/A needs overlap scavenging to get the intake moving. Still power left on the table.

Hookecho
06-13-2011, 10:52 PM
I had a CAI, header, 2.25 in exhaust, 10.5:1 compression ratio, port matched head/intake manifold, cams, and an SAFC. My old 5sfe was quite a bit faster than stock.

Sopaynefull
06-13-2011, 11:56 PM
Even though I'm new here, can I weigh in just quickly? Without going into forced induction, 3sgte swaps, overall costs, blah, blah, blah, blah, I would just like to say why I have chosen to upgrade my 5sfe. Please keep in mind that I'm a married, 34 year old father w/ 2 kids. Although I love fast cars (every man does, or at least should) they are not my priority in life right now. I am not an 18 year old ricer living w/ my parents and trying to play "2 Fast 2 Furious."
1. Although I'm very mechanically inclined, and own lots of nice tools, I am not incredibly experienced at working on vehicles. I have no immediate desire to rush into ordering an entire motor, rebuilding it from the ground up, deal w/ compatibility issues, rewiring harnesses, etc. I CAN however, handle installing a new header myself, swap out the head, install and weld an exhaust, etc...
2. I can't drop the amount of money required on a used engine, front clip, machine shop costs, new full engine gasket sets, pistons, rings, ecu, etc, etc, etc. I CAN however, afford to order a header online, install it on the weekend, and then order a SRI next month and install it. Am I going to end up w/ a 600HP street monster? No, I have no illusions about this, but every month my car gets a little peppier, and a little more fun to drive, and I'm LEARNING more and more about it as I go, which hopefully in the end might get me to the confidence level where I would consider an engine swap.
3. My car is now 21 years old, and it has over 300k on the clicker. I have to accept the fact that although I would LIKE to through all my spare money at it and see what happens, I also have maintenance costs. So that spare $150 doesn't go as far last month, for example when I needed a new fuel filter.

I can't get over how many idiots continue to argue on this thread. His thread wasn't WHETHER or not you should, or WHICH engine would be better to use in the long run, or WHAT was the best route to take if you had an extra 3k in the bank, and 2 spare weeks to work on your vehicle while it was down, AND an extra vehicle to drive WHILE it was down. This thread is about HOW to get more power from a 5sfe. Period. I have enjoyed reading it, have learned from it, and plan to benefit from someone who obviously has an excellent knowledge of this engine. Everyone else can pound sand.

CollapsedNut
06-14-2011, 12:04 AM
I love you

MrWOT
06-14-2011, 12:13 AM
If you've got cams, and a header, add a 2.25" diameter ~20" long (length adjusts rpm range) collector at the end of the header. Without a collector you're getting no scavenge on overlap.

Hookecho
06-14-2011, 12:19 AM
I had a collector on mine.

MrWOT
06-14-2011, 12:41 AM
I don't count those ebay style things as headers at all. Made of U-bends, nice merge section, or gtfo. Mine cost me over $400 to make on my 3S :p

edit: They probably flow better (reduced backpressure) vs. the factory manifolds, so they aren't a complete loss, but the are not a "header".

Hookecho
06-14-2011, 12:54 AM
Nah, I had the camry header. Doesn't have the long runners but it did have a collector. Probably better than that ebay one though.

http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/4/1/4/3/100_0454.jpg

Luni
06-14-2011, 01:58 AM
Thats right bitch so better recognize!

jaydog82
06-14-2011, 06:02 AM
1st gen jdm 3sge 4-2-1 header
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr54/jaydog82celi/DSC07270.jpg
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr54/jaydog82celi/DSC07272.jpg

CollapsedNut
06-14-2011, 07:00 AM
I have a 5s and a 4-2-1 3s laying around. havent decided which to use yet

k.beaty
06-22-2011, 03:54 PM
I've got my hands on a TRD Pro/Celebrity header. These were designed by TRD and used only on the Pro/Celebrity cars. They were never put into production. These are pictures that the previous owner sent to me, I have since cut the end of it off right before the exhaust clamp and had a flange welded on.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/TRDHeader6.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/TRDHeader4.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/TRDHeader5.jpg

MrTurrari
06-24-2011, 10:36 PM
Thanks guys for all the comments and correcting a lot of the misinformation out there. That is one of the reasons I like CelicaTech is there is much more openness to new ideas here and support for those who want to try things. It's one thing to give someone feedback on their ideas and completely another to just shoot them down out of hand with no thought into their situation and goals.

As Sopaynefull said, some of us just want a working car that we can mod a little at a time rather then sink a ton of cash and effort into it all at once.
Some of us also enjoy the journey and rewards of designing and building something ourselves. I have owned the 5sfe in my Teal MR2 for 7 years now and have had about 6 months of total down time, most of that because of mechanical failures or relating to my 5sfte efforts. My other 5sfe, I have had for 4 years and it has not been down for more then a couple of days at a time. That car has all bolt-ons and makes somewhere between 130-135rwhp (155-160 at the crank) and I have spent a total of about $350 (Delta cams, homemade header, Turbo MR2 exhaust). That is as much power as a gen2 3sge with more torque. I realize that some can't do it as cheaply as me but it can still be a pretty good bang for the buck.

FYI, Jim Snodgrass made 147rwhp but also only had one cam upgraded and it was only a 294 grind. He ran an EMS and 4-2-1 header though and did some mild head work. No one has yet dynoed a 5sfe with high compression, performance cams, custom intake manifold and purpose built header so you won't see BEAMS power levels until that happens. And by the way every stock BEAMS dyno I have seen puts power at 160rwhp which means Jim with his mild cam and stock intake manifold was just 13rwhp away. That is of course if you just want to consider peak HP numbers which can misrepresent how fast a car really is.

MrTurrari
06-24-2011, 10:59 PM
If you've got cams, and a header, add a 2.25" diameter ~20" long (length adjusts rpm range) collector at the end of the header. Without a collector you're getting no scavenge on overlap.
That's not entirely true but I am assuming that you are trying to make a point. :) A collector amplifies the pulses so they can be more effective. You can still have scavenging even if the primaries empty right into the exhaust pipe at odd angles or abruptly. Much better to have a good collector then not though.


I've got my hands on a TRD Pro/Celebrity header. These were designed by TRD and used only on the Pro/Celebrity cars. They were never put into production. These are pictures that the previous owner sent to me, I have since cut the end of it off right before the exhaust clamp and had a flange welded on.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/TRDHeader6.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/TRDHeader4.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/TRDHeader5.jpg
That is one of the better designs I have seen. Looks like a very well thought out piece.

schnee
06-25-2011, 09:00 AM
That TRD header looks like a copy of the Tanaka (JDM) headers
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/exhaust/Tanaka3S160180458a.jpg

The Gen1 GE header pictured is an early type, the better later type has longer pipes and a curved manifold
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/exhaust/PC150005.jpg

Price/performance you can't beat the gen2/3 GE headers
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/exhaust/gen2headers.jpg

From my experience the FE exhaust is too small to make full use of better headers

The quickest/cheapest route to FE power is to use the later head/manifolds/pistons, each gen got more and more power
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/sfe/screen_shot_2010-01-12_at_101607_pm.png

Later head has more ribs in front and makes a lot more power -

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/sfe/P8290114.jpg

Early porting is tiny compared to later type head
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/sfe/Graphic3.jpg

Later cams have much more lift & duration, probably not a good idea to use with the early head and pistons
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/sfe/Graphic1.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/sfe/Graphic2.jpg

MrWOT
06-25-2011, 06:38 PM
A collector amplifies the pulses so they can be more effective. You can still have scavenging even if the primaries empty right into the exhaust pipe at odd angles or abruptly.

No amplification takes place. The collector is there because you have to have a certain area change in order to maximize the reflection amplitude, but it will never make it stronger than the original wave. Without a collector you may have low backpressure, but you aren't scavenging (not enough energy), we're talking a difference in amplitude on several orders of magnitude. It is the area change that is most important.

edit: on a side note, you can make a surprisingly effective header by having short stacks (maybe 4"-10" long from the head flange) feeding into a large tube (8" diameter) at an angle that promotes exit to the tailpipe. I've seen results off these "log" style manifolds that rival the best headers. But they don't serve the same purpose, trading general-all-around low pressure for a tuned range. I'm making these for my regal gs since I value the band more than a tuned range with the blower on it.

MrTurrari
06-27-2011, 11:40 PM
No amplification takes place.
Amplify is probably a bad choice of words on my part. The shape of the collector can restack the pulse so that it is more focused or less focused. The amount of energy doesn't change but it's duration and amplitude can alter relative to what came down the runner in the first place. The collector itself is another secondary length that has it's own reflections. A collector with rounded or triangular primary entry points will soften the pulse and spread it out over time including the negative wave that immediately travels up the other runners. A tapering down collector pipe will cause the wave to compress as it reflects into a shorter duration and give you a higher peak. It works similarly to a velocity stack but in reverse. Any time there is a change in pipe sizer there is a reflection. The trick with both secondaries and collectors is to get them in sync with the primaries so you aren't cancelling out the effects.

schnee
06-28-2011, 12:01 AM
From my experience you can't build exhausts using a calculator
Cams & porting play a huge role and you can't factor it in properly.
Genereally speaking the longer the headers the more torque, look at superbikes.
The headers get longer every year.

The idea behind a collector is to use exhaust pulses to "suck" mixture into the following cylinders,
the more the suction the more air/fuel gets drawn into the next cylinder.
Nascar etc exhausts actually have the pipes crossing as well to increase this effect.

If the firing order is wrong (most GE/FE a/m pipes) the effect is lost,
the ideal is to have the exhaust pulses spiraling and the gas spinning in the pipe.
(Empty a coke bottle, then empty it while rotating the water)

Short headers are used in high RPM race engines, for street use we need to increase power/torque
much lower down and the ideal is a 4-2 system.
However space & cost are limiting factors and I thought this was meant to be a budget build?

MrTurrari
06-28-2011, 12:38 AM
That TRD header looks like a copy of the Tanaka (JDM) headers
The primaries look too big and the runners too short to be a good header for most 5sfes. You would have to measure everything and do the math to be sure. If you revved to 7500-8500rpms then that header might be a good choice.


The quickest/cheapest route to FE power is to use the later head/manifolds/pistons, each gen got more and more power

Later head has more ribs in front and makes a lot more power -

Early porting is tiny compared to later type head

Later cams have much more lift & duration, probably not a good idea to use with the early head and piston.
Sorry I have to respectfully disagree with most of that. The later engines only made 5hp more and it can all be attributed to the tuning and addition of a knock system. As a matter of fact rev1 cams have more duration then rev2 cams but only a little less lift. When all is said and done they act pretty much the same because the differences are so miniscule. The difference in base circle which you have shown in your pics does not change the amount the valve lifts or how long it is open. More ribs also does not equate to more power. The older heads do not crack or deform so the ribs are likely there because of the bigger base circle and valve train parts requiring thinner walls to fit in the same space. Also you are showing the exhaust ports which make less of a difference then the intake ports. It could even be argued that the smaller exhaust ports will make more overall power because of less reversion. The intake ports are much more important and are closely matched between the revs. As a matter of fact the last rev1 head I ported required less material be removed, not more, to size it to 1mm oversized valves. Lastly the later pistons (96-01) are better but only because they use thinner rings with less friction. The gains you will get are small so unless you are replacing them anyway it is not worth your money or time.

The intake manifold could possibly be an improvement. It looks like it has a slightly bigger plenum but the runners look the same like they are still sized for an engine that stops breathing well at 6000rpms. If they revised it for a 2.2 liter and not a 2.0 like the original it may help some.

So I have to say that using the later parts is not at all the quickest/cheapest way to more power. Did Toyota make improvements in their design? Yes but not anything that makes it worth the trouble of upgrading to them unless you are replacing things anyway. The quickest/cheapest upgrades with the most effect are still cams, header and exhaust in that order. If money were no object then it would be cams, intake manifold, header, then exhaust.

MrTurrari
06-28-2011, 01:51 AM
From my experience you can't build exhausts using a calculator
Cams & porting play a huge role and you can't factor it in properly.
Genereally speaking the longer the headers the more torque, look at superbikes.
The headers get longer every year.

The idea behind a collector is to use exhaust pulses to "suck" mixture into the following cylinders,
the more the suction the more air/fuel gets drawn into the next cylinder.
Nascar etc exhausts actually have the pipes crossing as well to increase this effect.

If the firing order is wrong (most GE/FE a/m pipes) the effect is lost,
the ideal is to have the exhaust pulses spiraling and the gas spinning in the pipe.
(Empty a coke bottle, then empty it while rotating the water)

Short headers are used in high RPM race engines, for street use we need to increase power/torque
much lower down and the ideal is a 4-2 system.
However space & cost are limiting factors and I thought this was meant to be a budget build?
Every good aftermarket and OEM header is built using a calculator. It is also true that the math is so complex that you can't get exactly what you want without expensive software and modeling. And I agree the cams are an integral part of that math. However you can, and many people do, successfully ballpark it to get good results, myself included. If you start with an understanding of what it is doing, all the different effects, then you can get much closer, more quickly then you will with trial and error. Most of us can't afford trial and error or modeling software so we either get what is out there or as close as we can build with one try. And that is why we use the math. And yes it works as long as you don't expect your output to be any more precise then your input. The more factors you can take into account the more accurate your results will be. Which is why many find the math to be useless to them. Garbage in, garbage out.

So what you have listed as general rules of thumb are true (except the spiral thing). But they don't get you any closer to what you want until you have a place to start. That is where the math can be the most useful. By comparing the stock parts to the mods we want to try we can get a pretty good guess as to what a mod will do. Those rules of thumb are also only good in a general sort of way. You can in fact build a 4-2-1 header that makes peaky torque and you can also make a 4-1 header that is broad and flat. The length can also vary depending on which reflection you tune it to.

As for the spiral thing, pressure is king when it comes to airflow. Spiraling and velocity are unwanted effects of pressure and flow and not the other way around. I'm sure some will argue that but we can save it for another thread. The mentality of having velocity is a result of companies oversimplifying things to sell products. The spiral thing is just a variation of the vortex insert gimmic in your intake. It hurts flow, it does not help it. The spiral only works in an emptying a bottle because it lets air get back into the bottle to displace the liquid. Poke a hole in the top of the bottle and it will flow out slower when you make it spiral.

schnee
09-12-2011, 02:07 PM
The purpose of this thread was to make more power on a limited budget?
Seems your 5S motors are very similar, wheras I've been looking at cheaply upgrading the 86-89 3S FE (90kw) using later 5S parts (110kw)

I'm aware there are calculations for exhaust sizing but even top teams will still dyno several different exhausts before settling and even then
will use different headers at different tracks. There simply is no "perfect pipe"
As for a 7500 rpm FE engine - I don't think so, most would opt for more power lower down and some reliability. An 8000rpm FE is an expensive
motor without the stock ecu.

Yes, my spiral example was a bad example. Fact remains that spiralling gases/liquids travel faster though a restricted space. Sequential headers will
always produce better results on a dyno.

No the ribs on the late model heads don't make more power. I was referring to the enlarged ports, revised chambers, cams, inlet, exhaust and pistons as
shown in the photos

MrTurrari
09-16-2011, 01:47 AM
The purpose of this thread was to make more power on a limited budget?
Seems your 5S motors are very similar, wheras I've been looking at cheaply upgrading the 86-89 3S FE (90kw) using later 5S parts (110kw)

This thread was created to steer people away from the mods that do not give noticeable power gains and instead direct them at the ones that do. The mods you are talking about are NOT in the category of best bang for the buck and some of them will give you no added power at all. I know because I have tried most of them. I am not saying that a few are not worth doing but they do not give you the significant gains you get from the mods I list in the first post.


I'm aware there are calculations for exhaust sizing but even top teams will still dyno several different exhausts before settling and even then will use different headers at different tracks. There simply is no "perfect pipe"
Those top teams use the math or pay someone to do it to get them close enough to tweak the last few HP out of it. We don't have the resources to do that so within a few percent of best power is good enough. If you want to custom make 10 headers to see which one gives you that extra couple of HP then have at it.


As for a 7500 rpm FE engine - I don't think so, most would opt for more power lower down and some reliability. An 8000rpm FE is an expensive motor without the stock ecu.
You do not loose reliability if you build to the same standards as stock and follow the specific cautions I put in the first post. I can guarantee you that the same sized engine that makes more torque at a higher rpm will make more power and be the faster car all things being equal. That is because of torque multiplication in the gearing. You have to monsterously increase torque to make a car faster at a lower RPM by using a larger engine or forced induction. As an example, the highest hp 5sfe I have seen with stock cams was 135whp. My high revving 5sfe with 3 full points less compression makes 6 whp more and would stomp a mudhole in any 5sfe with stock cams. My car keeps up with stock 3sgte powered MR2s and I have 25 less HP at the wheels. Gearing is huge when it comes to how fast a car is and the higher revs let you take better advantage of your gears.


Yes, my spiral example was a bad example. Fact remains that spiralling gases/liquids travel faster though a restricted space. Sequential headers will always produce better results on a dyno.
Yes they travel faster... and you get less air through the space because of it and make less power. There have been all kinds of gimmicks out there selling that myth. Remember the Tornado? By sequential headers do you mean stepped? They do not "always" give you best power but it depends on what you are looking for and how well they are designed. An equal length header with no steps can give more peak power. If you really want to increase power stack your cams, header and IM on the same RPM. Jim Snodgrass did this with his 147whp 5sfe. Not the best for having a wide powerband but it gets your dyno numbers up.


No the ribs on the late model heads don't make more power. I was referring to the enlarged ports, revised chambers, cams, inlet, exhaust and pistons as shown in the photos
The problem is those other things you list don't add any noticeable power. The ports got smaller on the later heads, the quench area was reduced and the cams have less duration. You can strap a 99 5sfe into a car with 91 electronics and it makes pretty much the same power.

grassdragger738
09-26-2011, 11:44 PM
Will a dual exhaust hinder the performance of the 5sfe I'm pretty sure it doesn't help but I was wondering if it hurts it.

Eric Barrera
09-29-2011, 11:50 PM
Less back pressure so what do you think?

MrTurrari
10-01-2011, 12:20 AM
Will a dual exhaust hinder the performance of the 5sfe I'm pretty sure it doesn't help but I was wondering if it hurts it.
It depends on what you mean by dual. If you are taking two pairs of cylinders (1 and 4 separated from 2 and 3 all the way back) you could theoretically focus torque better at a single rpm by using wave tuning. That design would probably be better for a hybrid or a generator though.

If you mean taking a single exhaust and piping it out two exits, increasing total area but not length, then it acts just like you have a bigger pipe on the back. Basically it doesn't flow as well at the rpm the original did but has a second peak at the rpm where the larger pipe's area flows better. The effects are not that noticeable though unless you go to the extremes. So basically adding a dual exit muffler will loose you a little bit of low end and gain some up higher, depending on the area of the pipes, but it is a very small amount unless your exhaust is excessively small for the application or way to big.

grassdragger738
10-01-2011, 09:30 AM
Thank you for that info

Huaraches
08-17-2012, 11:19 PM
by instaling either one of those factory headers from the 4th gen gt-s celica or the 97 camry can u still pass visual? and what about emmisions? do they work as good as an after market header?also are the cams hard to find? right now all my car has is both cats so from the cat to the back i got a 2.25 inch pipe with 3'' oval dual tip baffeld muffler and K&N drop in. so basically im a go for the mild build.

Lonestag
08-20-2012, 12:17 AM
[QUOTE=Huaraches;30208658]by instaling either one of those factory headers from the 4th gen gt-s celica or the 97 camry can u still pass visual? QUOTE]

I would think either would be fine as long as you don't ditch the heat shield.

As far as I know, the only way to get cams is to get some re-ground. I think Colt and Webcam have stock profiles for the 5S, maybe a few more. If I recall, you could spend around $500 on the regrinds and they net somthing like 20-30Hp, I hear it's one of the most effective upgrades for the 5S.

Huaraches
08-20-2012, 06:06 AM
would the heat shield still fit dough ? ok yeah those cams will be the last to go in jaja gota save up for them so like after all that how much hp and trq would i be hitting?

Lonestag
08-20-2012, 05:12 PM
Yeah, if I recall at least the camry header has all the mounting holes for the shield on the header itself so you should be able to keep the shield.

From what I've seen, I would expect a healthy 5S with intake, header, exhaust and cams to be putting down 130-140 HP to the wheels. Doesn't sound like much but it's a nice considering we start at about 100whp.

Huaraches
08-20-2012, 06:52 PM
Oh ok then ill look for them in the junk yard instead of the gt-s manifold. So would it still have the holes for the oxygen sensors ? ...doesnt it already have 130 hp oh a 5s..whp? Whats that stand for?

BabyBear
08-20-2012, 07:37 PM
Oh ok then ill look for them in the junk yard instead of the gt-s manifold. So would it still have the holes for the oxygen sensors ? ...doesnt it already have 130 hp oh a 5s..whp? Whats that stand for?

Wheel Horse Power. The amount of power making it to the ground after drivetrain and accessory loss. The horsepower ratings that the manufactures give for their cars are always horsepower at the flywheel not at the wheels.

MrWOT
08-20-2012, 08:56 PM
I still have yet to see anyone add a proper collector (that I can recall anyway :hehe: ) to any of the available 5S manifolds, and that's where the real power comes from. A header without a proper collector may lower backpressure and smooth the flow path, but the collector is what generates the negative pressure waves and times them.

If any enterprising 5S owner wants to post up the diameter and length (cylinder head to merge) of their header, I have the software to calculate what collector is optimal in a 2500rpm band.

Huaraches
08-20-2012, 08:57 PM
oh ok now it makes sence jaja so with all that how much hp will it be just to the flywheel?

Huaraches
08-20-2012, 08:59 PM
so would that mean my O2 sensors wont be connected if i install the camry manifold? thats the collector where it goes in right or is it something else?