View Full Version : 88 Gt-s

06-29-2008, 09:39 PM
Looking for experanced advice about my celly. It has a 3sge JDM short block with the 3sge american head on it. That is the only way my mechanic knew how to hook it up when I put the jdm motor in. Now I have a rod knocking and am trying to decide on what to do. 1st. choice is to rebuild this motor to over 300 hp. 2nd. choice is to get a front clip of a 94 celica st205 and build that engine to a 300 hp engine. Or choice number 3, buy an 88 alltrac. I live in Dayton Ohio and do not know of any alltracs in this town. If I go with the alltrac it would be the only one around. But if I go with the st205 swap I'ed have one fast 88 GTS. Or go with just the rebuild of the short block 3sge. My celica is in fair shap. My seats in front are crap [torn leather] and rust just starting to develop over rear wheel wells. Have both new front finders to replace the ones I have. Every switch works along with the radio and tape player. A/C blow cold. But it is an auto with power butten. Have a 5speed trany along with the clutch plate,fly wheel,pre. plate. And the sun roof works with no leaks. Have lots of spair parts for it, motors for windows and sun roof, things like that. So help me decide with your advice and coments. Thanks...buffalohunter7321

06-30-2008, 05:06 AM
I can't help you with your dilema,
But if you decide to get rid of the GTS I call a million dibs...

06-30-2008, 08:13 PM
Well we'll see what happens after I deside on witch way I go. My celica was quick. Used to hurt alot of people feelings that thought there cars where fast. Just have to wait and see. Will be making a decision soon...buffalohunter7321

07-02-2008, 03:37 PM
Go to www.st162.com and ask the guys there, especially Mafix. 300 hp is possible, but you're spending huge bucks to get there and will be redoing your entire fuel delivery, fuel management, intake, and exhaust system, too. If you're really adamant about getting to 300 hp, you'll probably need to go turbo and probably up at least one generation of 3sgte. But ask over on st162 - they specialize in Gen 4s.

If, on the other hand, you want to rebuild what you got, I'm going through that process right now and have a sticky on st162.com you can read and see if you wanna go that route (also due to rod knock).

Good luck.

07-03-2008, 04:41 AM
If your automatic Celica is in "fair shape" with rust starting, ie cancer, I'd simply look for a better condition All-Trac. Decent, ready-to-drive ST165s can be had for about $2000 and up, plus you get the benefit of 4WD. Visit the for sale section of www.alltrac.com.

IMHO, not really worth the time and $$$ to take the 1st gen 3SGE to 300HP when Toyota has already gone in that direction with the 3SGTE (and they never got 300HP).

Come visit at www.st162.com or www.alltrac.net, we have 165/185 members in Ohio.

07-03-2008, 01:16 PM
Thanks Kiasis you have helped me in the past with good info. Registerd on the site you reconmended and am waiting tobe accepted. With your 3sge, are you just doing what needs to be done? Or are you building high performance? My motor has great compression and doesen't burn any oil. Of course you probly cover all this in your sticky on www.st165.com. Hows the horses doing?...buffalohunter7321

07-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Thanks Rick89GTS, sound advice. I really would like to get an alltrac and would let go of my cellica. I have never even seen an alltrac and do not know anything about them. But from what I have read they seem to need alot of atension. Now are you saying that you can not build a 3sge to 300hp? Is it possible to do a 3sgte to 300hp?Lets say that I just rebuild my 3sge to the max, what all would I need to do to it and could you est the cost to do so? Maybe I should just get rid of my gts and do like you sugested! When I sit and think about what all I would have to do to it, It seem's over whelming. I have been whatching for about a year now for an alltrac or a half trac. Just can't afford one that is in good shape. To spend over 5gs on a car that has xx,xxx miles and some times xxx,xxx is not a good ideal, to me. I could take that $$ and put it in my own gts and know what I have on a completly fresh motor. But than again that much $$ in that old of car would be just for my own cause. Because I could never recover the cost from it if sold. Thanks you have given me a lot to think about...buffalohunter7321

07-03-2008, 11:24 PM
I'm w/ Rick. The shop foreman at my local dealership told me he has kids working for him who work these engines up quite a bit, but they're strictly track use, and you are talking huge sums of money to get it there.

I'm doing a complete rebuilt that is essentially stock, although if I learn of a way to increase power/durability at a reasonable cost as I go, I certainly will. Being in California, it's tough to get much more out of any engine and keep it smog/street legal. My goal is to have an engine that'll go another 50-75-100K miles and get the experience and pleasure of doing most of it myself. I'm also finishing my brake and suspension upgrade while I'm at it. Our cars are so light, at 135 hp and a decently tuned suspension/brake system, it's a decent ride. Yeah, another 100 hp would be nice, but not at the cost.

I'd also love an alltrac. I just did a nation-wide search and couldn't find any listed w/ the major papers. They are definitely getting harder to find, let alone in good shape. I'd think searching for one south of the snow/rust line would be your best bet (unless you're really good at the body work).

Hey, here's one from the San Fran area on Craigslist

and one from San Diego

Horses are doing fine, thanks. You ever get that Corolla issue all figured out?

07-04-2008, 06:31 AM
We seem to be in agreement here. I'm not an engine builder, but like Kiasis discussed above, building up the 3SGE is prohibitively expensive. Anything can be done if you throw unlimited $$$$$ at it. Even if you did that, reliability and longevity may be questionable. The 3SGTE is already factory-engineered, time-tested and rally-proven.

Given your situation and $, it may be best to simply rebuild the 3SGE to stock, or find another good condition GTS for a $1000 or so, as your daily driver.
(I scored this minty 86GTS for $800, see link: http://www.st162.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3040&highlight= )
Then save up until you find your dream All-Trac. That's what I did. Now I have 3 cars: an 86GTS, 89GTS and 88 All-Trac. These cars are 20+years old now. I love the 4th Gens but even I won't throw thousands into a car that's worth only a couple grand. Lots to think about, hope I didn't make it more confusing!

07-04-2008, 03:57 PM
Damn Rick, who'd you have to kill to get that for $800? Those minors and sub-minor and your seats are in good shape all w/ less than 115k miles (I'm so jealous). And you're in the home country and found one w/ no rust?!? Man, if I didn't 'know' you from all various sites we visit, I'd declare shannigans on you right now:)

Buffalohunter, I suggest you consider yours a parts car and go find one like Rick did.

07-04-2008, 06:09 PM
Yea I think you both are right. Even though with a bottem rebuild and a new oil pump along with the starter relay, it's a dd again. I had a new rack and pinnion plus new hub and bearring installed right befor the knocking started. It's up on my home made ramp of three concrete rolls of block that I just drive it up on and craw under and do what ever needs tobe done. The under body is in great shap, no rust. No rust in the rocker pannels at all. The only place that has rust is just over the rear wheels wells and on the pass. front finder where the black trim is. But as far as that goes I have two front finders to put on that are spotless of rust. Just alittle rust on the sun roof. Had a quote of 300$ to fix the whole car of rust. It seems like it would be a waste to just have it for a parts car. For 2000.00 this car would look and be as solid as one of these cars you have showen me. Man that 88 alltrac with the st205 swap is my dream car. But at the present I don't have $5000. I have looked at that car over and over since you showed it to me and I have made my self sick wanting it. If my house sale's, that car is mine, If he still has it! But I can't expect a car like that to be around for ever. You Celica brother are the best. No I haven't gotten the tps problem fixed yet on the fx corolla, just driving it with it unhooked. I met up with celicaGT90_05 and he looked at it for me but couldn't qiute solve the problem. But we had alot of fun goofing off on the high way as we where departing. Didn't put any one in danger just some mild fun. From what time I have spent with him I can tell he is a true car man. This site is great. Sooo what do I do? This is hard as I love my celica and am not wanting to just let it set and rust. But if I let it go I'll clean house and let all the part go too. 5speed trany,clutch plate,presure plate,flywheel,inner door pannels,lf&Rt front finders, sun roof motor, Lf&Rt door windows, Lf&Rt window motors,Extra set of alloy wheels and tires, Bottem crow for front bumper,Lf&Rt rocker covers. side markers [amber]. What to do?...buffalohunter7321

07-04-2008, 10:21 PM
Well... to be honest, I'm may not the best guy to listen to for advice. I probably should have given up on my 88GTS a long time (and many $$) ago. However, I've had a great time learning and rebuilding and now have so much time (and $$) invested, I've got to see it through, even though I'm probably building a $6000 car worth $1500. The 'mature' answer? Get rid of it now and spend your time/money on your dream car. If you're like me, and can't stand to see emotional investment and potential get parted out, get at 'er and get 'er done.

07-05-2008, 03:12 AM
Yea I am kinda like you in that mater but as of now and my age I'am starten to think more on just getting rid of it and get an alltrac. My dream car was my 88GTS with a st205 swap along with a 5speed tranny conversion. But that 88alltrac with the st205 swap would be great, not to mention awd along with it. And just the usual maintence and upkeep. So I'll pray about it and find out what I should do. My thanks to you two for every thing...buffalohunter7321

07-05-2008, 06:52 AM
well I'm probably the worst person to give advise on 4th gens cause I'd fix it no matter how bad and all you got is a little knock and a few hundred dollars of rust.

As far as engines go the horsepower is aproximatly

GTS 140hp
ST165 180hp
ST185 210hp
ST205 240hp

If you put an All Trac engine in I don't know if it will fit with your auto tranny. If the starter is on the tranny side it will probably work. If the starter is under the exhaust manifold it will probably not work. In that case you will need a 4th gen 3sfe manual trans. A 4th gen 3sge manual tranny will not work with a 3sgte engine of any generation. You can't use an All Trac tranny for just front wheel drive.

I'd just hate to see a good 4th gen being reduced to parts.

You can allways see how much fun I have with my 4th gen All Trac Project Rust Destroyer (56K W*A*R*N*I*N*G) (http://st162.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1853)

07-05-2008, 09:49 AM
Man you are one die hard celica dude. Nice work. My celica is in no way that bad off, and you saved yours. Makes me feel bad for letting mine go. That is if celicaGT_05 wants it. I told him he would have frist dibs 3 mo. ago if I ever got rid of it. And than there's Rick89GTS who has a milion dibs if celicaGT90_05 doesn't take it. To find a 4th gen alltrac in great shape is getting harder to do. This would mean that they are getting more rare'r by the day. Kiasis showed me one that is my dream car, a 88 alltrac with a st205 swap and it looked to be in allmost mint shape for 5000.00 and a good price too. But to rich for my wife. Me I'ed get it , but I tend to want to live with her for a long time yet, so i'll have to pass on it. If any one know's of one for 3000.00 in that good of shape and no one else wants it, pleeeese let me know...buffalohunter7321

07-05-2008, 10:09 AM
First, the GT4/Alltrac tranny can be converted to FWD. There are members on the board that have done it.

Second, there is an `88-89 ST165 in the FS forum for $3k.

07-05-2008, 08:09 PM
Hey Murg, what tranny is best for that 205 3sgte (or any other 3SGTE for that matter)? I've heard that finding a V-6 Camry tranny (standard, of course) is a good choice. Is converting an Alltrac/GT4 to fwd better or about the same?

Buffalohunter, don't you already have a S53 5-sp for your car? The easiest fix is get your 3SGE properly redone, swap over tranny (may need different ECU???) and go for it. If the rest of your classic is in good shape, bada-bing, bada-boom and you're back on the road. Or, be like me and decide that since you're pulling the engine, install new steering, coolant system, suspension and brake parts while your at it. Wanna see pictures of my garage right now??

Ya know, I bought a used 3SGE and was just gonna swap, but then I got into my rod knock, bad rings, bad valves engine (for dissection/learning purposed) and am now in the process of seeing if I can rebuild it instead of just swapping in the used one. I haven't had it to the machine shop yet to verify my readings on cylinder bore, crank, head (etc) but if the professionals agree w/ my readings and the magnaflux is good on block and head, I'm rebuilding it and will have the used one as an extra. If that's the case, I'll make the used one available for a good price - although I can't make any kind of guarantee except I was told the leak-down was very good. I'll probably check that again (at least) before letting anyone have it, since I have no intention of doing to anyone (ever) what the SOB mechanic did to me when he installed my current engine that was already bad and never going to last or pass CA smog. Just a thought in case your rod knock screwed the crank and can't be rebuilt.

Ah, the wife. Yes, I also have the desire to stay married. Fortunately, she loves fixing old cars as much as I do and wants me to hurry up on this one so we can find an old convertible (50-60s vintage) to have a go at. Actually, we're getting back our '68 Dodge D100 PU this weekend. Restoring that will probably be the next one.

On another note, Murg (or anyone else w/ the answer), how come my BGB says the crank on a 3SGE can't be reground or otherwise worked? Everywhere were it has me checking for oil clearance, roundness (etc, etc) the manual says if the crank is out of spec on the 3SFE, it can be re-worked. But in all cases, it says if the 3SGE is out of tolerance, replace it. However, when I was talking to the owner of the machine shop, he showed me in his book that you can get oversized bearings for the 3SGE and he said that means it can be reused. Plus, he said he could add new material and regrind the 3SGE crank if necessary and he didn't know why the BGB would make a distinction between the 3SFE and 3SGE cranks. Anyone know what's up w/ that?

Oh, and like Rick said, make sure you visit the 'for sale' section of alltrac.net - just to tease the hell outta yourself. There are some beautifully kept cars out there. Makes me want to get my project to those standards even more!!

07-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Yea thats what I'am talking about. If I pull the engine and take it to a private speed shop, that is about a mile up the road, have them do the checking of clearences on the crank. See what they would recomend on the crank. Here in Dayton there are about a dozen good quility speed shops and all close by. I know that to get any kind of more hp I'ed have to go with a 3sgte swap. And I know that the half tracs are faster than the alltracs. Only because of the less weight. That is why I wanted to do a 3sgte swap in my celica. Of course the st205 is the one I would prefer but can not aford to buy a front clip to switch it all over. But can aford to rebuild to stock with slite modes, like a 3 angle valve job, the next set of bigger cams, port and polish head. Put in some forged pistons a new high performance oil pimp along with a fuel management system. With all that what would it be in horse power? Does any one have any ideal or estamate of power gain i would achieve?...buffalohunter7321

07-05-2008, 08:56 PM
Looked over on alltrac.net and seen a 88 alltrac for 1300.00 with some engine problems. Don't know about buying a car that I can not hear run. Also I think I read on this site that an alltrac can be towed!? If this is possible could some one tell how incase I get this one. A plus side is it's below the snow line in so carolinia...buffalohunter7321

07-05-2008, 09:03 PM
Kiasis, no shenanigans, I search the 'for sale' ads in my area everyday; I've been doing that for the past 5+ years. So when one comes up, I'm quick on the draw. Helped my friend get an 87GTS in the same colour last year for $850. (It had some rust, that's why I passed on that one.) There are good, clean Celicas out there, the trick is that I can afford to be patient. Hell, I waited 7 years for one lady until she was ready to sell! :laugh:

Damn Rick, who'd you have to kill to get that for $800? Those minors and sub-minor and your seats are in good shape all w/ less than 115k miles (I'm so jealous). And you're in the home country and found one w/ no rust?!? Man, if I didn't 'know' you from all various sites we visit, I'd declare shannigans on you right now:)

Buffalohunter, I suggest you consider yours a parts car and go find one like Rick did.

07-05-2008, 09:05 PM
Yes, an AllTrac can be towed, flat deck is best but if not, you can do it, following specific procedures in the owner's manual.

07-05-2008, 11:20 PM
The differences between a 2nd Gen 3SGTE and a 3rd Gen 3SGTE are negligible. Sure, the stock 3rd Gen (ST205) will make more power, but once you start upgrading, the engines are close enough to the same to be pointless to pay the premium for a 3rd Gen. Other than the lack of an AFM...

The S54 (6th Gen 5SFE) is a decent transmission that hold up well to 3SGTE swaps. KoreanJoey is running one behind his 3rd Gen 3SGE swap.

The V6 Camry transmission is also pretty popular. The MR2 Tranny is also usable with a little work. The Alltrac/GT4 gearbox is the same as a 3SGTE MR2 tranny with the the addition of a gear set to run to the rear differential. If you change the ST185 differential with an MR2s and put a block off plate on the back of the tranny, then you have a FWD ST185 gearbox.

Sean on this board has done this.

07-06-2008, 02:14 AM
Wow man you guys amaze me. I took some pics of my celly and the wife is going to post them for me. Just to let you see for your selves what all is wronge with it. And than help me make a dission. To late to craw under it for the skeeters are bad right now with three days of ran hear in Dayton. But after church tomorrow I'll take pics of the underside and have my wife post them for me. As of right now I'am talking to a guy in so. carolinia who wants 1300.00 for his alltrac. But has the intake off of it and has all the new parts for it tobe put back together. I believe he is on alltrac.net and it's a 88 drak blue that the body looks real good. Even has a extra seat for it. Think you could visit that site and have a look see and let me know what you think! Thanks...buffalohunter7321

07-06-2008, 02:51 AM
That seller is not a member that I'm familiar with. He joined 3 years ago but has only posted 14 times (?). I personally would not buy a car that is not running because there are too many unknowns and the seller could be simply trying to offload problems. Exception if you are buying for the shell only and/or intend to do a motor swap.

Look at it like this: worst-case scenario is that you can't get it running and the motor is hooped; is the hassle, shell and/or parts worth the price paid?

He has the new 185 turbo, manifold, and downpipe, so why doesn't he just take the afternoon and put it back together? He could easily get double for it in running condition. I'd be wary.

Not running, has to be trailered/towed, long-distance seller and you have admittedly, limited knowledge about 165s. Are you ready to take on what could be a long-term project with unknown problems? There are a lot of running 165s out there in the $2500-$3500 range. Your decision, of course, but as I've said before, I'd rather pay more up front for a running car.

PS - When I had the Alltrac fever, I agonized for months over an imperfect 165 I passed up at a good price. Later, I found out from eventual buyer that the car had expensive issues. Later bought my current 165 for slightly higher but way less problems. They are rare, but the right one will come along...

07-06-2008, 02:33 PM
This is confermation to me what you told me. Even if I bought the car and wanted to do a motor swap, I would have to get it for a lot less than he is wantting for it. This is why I came to my fellow cellica brothers for advice that I can count on. I asked him at first if there was any issues with the bottem of the motor at all. He never answered that question. Than I asked him how long it would take to put the motor back together and get it running? His reply was a some hour's. Also asked for some pics of the underside of the car and as of yet nothing. I'ed give him 500.00 for it if the under side is rust free and plan on doing a motor swap. Like kiasis, I would use the old motor for learning experance and take it apart bolt by bolt. Say I get the car for 500.00 and do a motor swap, how much would I need to get a JDM 3sgte to put in it?...buffalohunter7321

07-06-2008, 03:18 PM
Heres a good link that shiro on 4gcelica wrote. Personally I think the 3rd generation 3sge is far superior to its predecesors. 3sge's have serious cooling issues around #3 cylinder so doubling the size and flow rate of the water pump can't hurt. Theirs alot of other good upgrades to the 3rd gen to but keeping the engine cooler would sell me on going 3rd gen, I just haven't managed to blow my first gen engine up yet.

3sge.. 1st,2nd,3rd, gen. evoution info (http://st162.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2100&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)

07-07-2008, 04:59 AM
Well I took the pics of my car and its rust isues. But can't figure out how to post them on this site. Can any one help me out with this? There on our computer , just need to know how to tranfer them to the thread. ST165ALLTRAC our you saying that if I pull the motor, to just replace it with a 3gen 3sge? What other up grades are available to the 3gen? Never had a problem with my car over heating. In fact never had any problems with it at all, untill it just started knocking at a really low knock when I was just crusing down to see my mom. All country back roads never got over 55mph, just crusing speed. Stoped at a rr x and heard the low knocking. Looked at my oil gage and no oil pressure at all. Pulled over and turned it off to check the oil, it was full. Turned around and drove it as easy as i could for about 10 miles and finely pulled over. The knocking was like a mild knocking and just sat there till the tow truck came. Started it some time later , like a month, to pull it up on my ramp and thats where it been for the last 6 months...buffalohunter7321

07-07-2008, 06:05 AM
Here's how to show pics in your thread:
1) Upload your pics to a free server like Photobucket.
2) Copy the pic link
3) Click on "img" icon (scroll over it and it'll say, "Insert Image")
4) Insert picture link

OR simply type: insert link here

That's it.

07-07-2008, 08:31 AM
Although it is an overheating issue it is not something that you are going to notice until something fails. It is a design issue with the way coolant circulates around the cylinders in the block so although your temp guage is looking all happy and telling you everything is okay your poor old #3 cylinder is running much hotter that the other cylinder and causing excessive wear on that cylinder/rings. The only thing you can do about it is get a 3rd gen engine which has a higher flow pump.

Heres a quote about the issue.

All the 3S engines have abnormal wear in #3 cylinder
because of a stale spot in the cooling system. When engines
beyond about 100,000 are dismantled, #3 cylinder always
has the most wear & often needs re-boring to make it

You can find the whole article here Failures of Toyota twin cam engines by Terry O’Beirne (http://www.roadandtrack.net.au/Documents/Toyota%20engine%20failures.pdf)

For your engine chances are its a connecting rod bearing. Have you taken the oil pan off and check to see if any of your connecting rods are loose where the connect to the crankshaft. If that is the problem then 3 of them should be nice and tight and one will have a bit of play in it when you try to wiggle them. You didn't drive it much after the knocking started so you may be able to just replace the bearing.

The bigger issue is what happened to your oil pressure. A blown connecting rod bearing will lower the oil pressure so if you still had some pressure with higher rpms and it drops to 0 at idle then probably replacing the connecting rod bearing will restore your oil pressure.

For me personally I can get a 3sgte JDM 2nd gen for $1200 or a 3rd gen for $2000 if I want to travel a couple of hours to pick it up. Both would come with an AWD tranny, ECU, sensor, wiring harness, alt, starter. About the only other things needed would be air flow meter ( 3rd gen 3sgte uses a maf sensor) and appropriate engine bay fuse boxes.

3rd gen 3sgte JDM replacements offer me the additional advantage that the 205 tranny is LSD and better than 1st or 2nd gen all trac trannys. So a better cooled engine and a better tranny make the extra $800. Not to mention the extra 30hp.

07-07-2008, 12:04 PM
If I go this route what would I do about the gages that go along with a 3sgte swap? When I put my JDM 4age motor in my 87 fx corolla! The company shiped it to my drive way.{JDM Tigar Japanis@.com** Just got the motor no tranny or starter. Cost me $800. So with $2000. + the $300 for rust+ What ever a paint job would cost+ change of front seats. I'am looking at $3000. In a car, that at the most, will bring $2000.? And that is if some one really wanted it. But my celica would roll again and it would even hurt even more peoples feelings. To me that would be worth it. I know that there is adional cost for gages,maf sensor, redoing the Harness to fit my 88, clutch peddle, shift cables exc.exc. So tottle would be some where around $3800./$4000.? Like every one has said, just by a good alltrac and use the car for parts or get rid of it for what ever I can get and add that $ to the cost of buying an alltrac. As soon as my wife can get the pics on here, you all can help me judge, keep or get rid of it...buffalohunter7321

07-07-2008, 09:02 PM
Blue 165 in PA, with FMIC, good shape, $2500 obo:

Black 165, asking $4300 obo in California:

Blue 165 at $2000 in Oregon:

07-07-2008, 11:38 PM
Hey Rick89GTS can you do me a favor? I have joined alltrac.net, but they have not cleared me yet. I can't log in to answer or reply to there post. Can you get in touch with the guy in Pa and give him my email add. for me? If the car is still for sale I would like very much to talk to him about buying it. Thanks...buffalohunter7321 PS. jackandmelodie@hotmail.com

07-07-2008, 11:56 PM
Nice FMIC he's got on there, don't see that on too many 165s. His post says he returned July 5, good luck, let us know how it goes.

07-08-2008, 02:54 AM
Jack, he responded and I forwarded you the contact info via PM and email.

07-08-2008, 03:58 AM
Well I emailed the guy and I am waiting to hear from him. Lets see how he answers my questions and go from there. Again thank you Rick89GTS...buffalohunter7321

07-08-2008, 04:06 AM
Will those extra parts fit on my 883sge? Anybody

07-08-2008, 08:35 AM
Stock intercooler and cooling system ....no need for it in a GTS
Stock shifter and assembly .....yes it will fit a GTS
2 alternators (working??) .....yes they fit GTS
Air intake piping from member BayareaAT ....you may be able to use it
Original wheels (need cleaned up and tires) ....yes will fit a GTS
misc heat shields, hoses and other parts ....some parts will fit

07-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Well thank for the info. but I passed on his car. He said it had rust on the under side of it and would not come off of 2500.00 since he has it running now. I fegured 2500.00+ 1500.00 for rust control and repaint. I could get an alltrac from below the snow line. I can deal with the mechanical problems but no good at body work. Never did it...buffalohunter7321

07-10-2008, 10:30 PM
Well the guy who is posting a alltrac for the parents of his friend who past away, kind has made an aggreement with me. He said that he is going to do a price drop and try to sell it and if it doesn't sell he would take my offer. I understand where he is comming from, but that kinda puts me on the spot. This trip to Cal. is a once in a life time thing for me and I really don't want to pass up an opertunity of getting a rust free alltrac. But my time is limited. If it sale's real soon, that would help. But if it lingers like it has been, than that realy cut in to my time to find another good alltrac and make a deal on it. So I told him that after this comming monday I'll have to start looking for another one. I don't want to have to make a last monent dession on another car. I just want tobe able to go out there and do a test drive and visual check drive it around for awhile and make the deal. This car has been setting for about 2years ,I think, is there any thing I should look out for? Any one have any cautions for me. I asked him if it had the oweners manual so as to see how to tow it. He doesn't know if his friends mother has it or not. Does any on know how to tow a alltrac. My mechanic says that it has tobe trailed and can not use a front wheel trailer to tow it. IF thats the case I'll have to rent one from uhaul...buffalohunter7321

07-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Directly from the owner's manual...

Use a safety chain system for all towing, and abide by the state/provincial and local laws. The wheels and axle on the ground must be in good condition. If they are damaged, use a towing dolly.

All-Trac/4WD models. Towing can be done in the following two ways:
Towing with rear wheels on a dolly: Be sure to raise the front wheels using a towing sling.

Towing with four wheels on ground: Release the parking brake, put transmission in neutral and place the ignition key in the "ACC" position.

Do not tow with the key removed or in the "LOCK" position, as the steering lock mechanism is not strong enough to hold the front wheels straight while towing.

07-11-2008, 05:18 AM
If I read and see this right I can rent a tow bar and just put it in neutral to tow it home! The key has to be in the acc position so steering wheel will move when I make turns. Hook up the lite's to my mother-n-laws camery and away I go. I was worried about the v6 pulling the weight of the trailer + the weight of the alltrac+ all of her stuff she intends to bring with her. Now with out the trailer weight should get better gas milage and smoother riding. I just hate to bear wires to hook up wires to them, so they work when yours work. Why can't some one invent a set up to just hook up to a trailer type plug and then take out the turn signals blubs of the car being towed and plug into them. Of course that wouldn't get you brake lites would it. Well thanks for the help nd all the supper advice...Buffalohunter7321

07-12-2008, 05:42 PM
A few pics of Buffalo's car:


07-13-2008, 01:58 AM
Thanks to Rick89GTS every one can see my cellica with it's cancer. I have two used front finders that are rust free, And the rockers our solid with the passinger side cover dented. Like that when I got the car. Have another set of covers,used, but not dented. There is more pic of interior but they will show lots of ware & tare. And I will be sending Rick89gts some pic of underside. But like rick suggested I am starting to think it has had it. Still waiting on the alltrac guy who is selling his passed away friends car to make a comitment and can only wait for another two days. Than I have to move on...buffalohunter7321

07-15-2008, 06:05 PM
Yeah, with rod knock and a body that rough, that just might be a parts car. Real shame.

07-16-2008, 03:08 AM
real shame...buffalohunter7321

07-29-2008, 10:54 AM
Hey I like your car! lol, i have a ST thats gotta be the identical twin of your gt-s..minus the spoiler! im in between a rock and a hard place with my celicas, I got a GT-S hatch with a freshly rebuilt head, New Tranny, And the dude who sold it to me says it has an exedy Clutch (i can belive it because it has so much pull but its kinda gettin worn) The only problem with that car is its Wrecked! (damn nie dead) the bumper is pushed at least six inches over, both fenders headlights are all stripped off and its getting a new drivers side a-arm cause i lost it into a curb and a gardrail due to brake pull/Failure? Anyways, i Bought a 89' St with a 3s-FE thats almost the same as yours minus the Indipendent Twin Cam and T-VIS...The owner must have rigged it because it drove beautifuly the first week. but the weekend brought out the truth; It had a shot trans, it Started to overheat alot, and always had some kind of problum. Needless to say 3 weeks after i bought it, it decided to blow the head, putting a nice quarter sized hole/chip in the block by the intake. It sprayed a great deal of oil all over, not to mention doing it in the middle of azuza ave, at a redlight, during peek traffic.... ( At first it sounded like i was dragging my muffler, Then it started losing Oil psi, and steam came next...Straight Death Rattle.) So i had er towed thirty miles, and now im stuck with two broken toys, I have made up my mind that The Gt-s is the one to keep, because its the shit hands down! I live right off of the main drag here and behind my house is the armenian chop shop/ Auto dealership, they said they can pull the front and weld the split seams for about 300 bucks if i rip the radiator/AC Rad., and all related nomanclature to the engine from the front plate of the frame. so what im gonna do is use the 89's Entire front end (body-wise) to re-build my Six Million Dollar Car.... what fun! never thought id have to walk so much in my life, or break so many tools to get a car running! But i will say my celi has heart, after meeting the gardrail at fifty, tilting the rear tire 10 degrees and almost knocking my head trough the drivers side window, she still limped all the way fifteen miles to my friends house, without leaking a single drop of coolant, or oil. amazing! Dont give up on a celica especialy a gt or gt-s, they will always live on. . (parted out or swapped, re-built, or Given away! the celica always lives on!)
good luck with your all-track buy, and remember Fourth gen celicas Are THE ORIGINAL FF Gangstar! Civics weep!
Sorry about my rambling, but i gotta tell everyone who will listen that a fourth gen is still a worthy cause!
Night! TEK!

08-03-2008, 02:28 PM
You mean your celica use to look like mine. It looked good befor the impaction with the guard rail. Hows the inside of it look? Mine is a almost complete wash. The only good seatting is the bottems of the rear seats. Fronts are gone and the top of the back is all sun cooked and split. The buy in S.Cal. didn't happen. I had a unexpected problem come up and at this time can not aford to put that much on my credit card. Has it stands now my dream car is no longer in my dreams. Someday! I will be going back out there this fall to move my mother-n-law back to Ohio. And will be driving her 92 camery back for her. But unless my work load picks up soon there is no chance of me getting a alltrac from S.Cal that would be rust free. After seeing what ST165ALLTrac did with his car to save it. It kinda gave me hope for my GTS. Starting on one of my projects this week [ converting a 88 chev nove over to an all electric car] with about 6 hours of drive time befor recharge. Picking up a wire welder this week too weld the fram work that I'll need to do this. Hope to have it done by Oct. Just in time for winter. Than I can start on cutting the rust out on the GTS and putting new metal back. Once that is done get her painted the way I would like for her to look. Than Ive made up my mind to convert her to all electric for a dd. If this takes off I'll be able to aford a Alltrac that is in ment condition...Buffalohunter7321

08-05-2008, 07:21 AM
If you've decided to save your Celi, take pics and chart your progress. We're here for support :)

08-06-2008, 12:48 PM
Yes I am planning on saving my celica and will be posting the photo's of progress. I will keep you all posted...Buffalohunter7321

08-07-2008, 02:40 PM
yeah at this point im gonna save the white one, the blue hatch has to pass a measurement check, because i suspect the rear strut tower is bent, (witch is a major blow to keeping the hatch!) so im gonna give it a good ruler whipping, then fit test the new struts by putting it back on the ground to get a looksie. if the wheel is still kinked im scrappin the sucker after i get all the goodies the gt-s model came with... good shit-e!
best of luck with the celica, if mccain wins convert it to electric and move to mexico, cause we going to war some more.....
peace bro ~sean

08-07-2008, 09:45 PM
Nothing polictical, buy my hope and trust is in Jesus and I can't speak spanish so I'll just stay in God's country of Ohio...buffalohunter7321

08-10-2008, 05:58 PM
Good Stuff, I Used to live in Pittsburgh PA, And i Miss the east... But the cars get rusty terribly fast out there... I live in Los Angeles now, and my 87' gt-s when i bought it had no rust at all except for on exposed metal (like the brake rotors & Calipers.)My First Car, the 83 Celica st Had a little bit of rust, but it was from a leaking Boot Seal, On the trunk! I Swear lord as my witness i have seen some Excellently Preserved Cars Out here, For some amazing Prices! (usually the motor and tranny are shot! LOL!)
I convinced My Friend into buying a celica, He paid 700 and got a 88' GT hatchback, with a 5 speed and a great interior, 201,000 miles.... No rust, passed smog first try!, Just had some registration issues.. ($200 in Back registration, from sitting too long)
Other than that in the last six months hes only had to change the alternator, a fuel filter, and oil. Love those Cali Deals.... KEEP A SHARP Eye On craigs list, Buffalo! in Los Angeles, i Always see celicas for pennies.... some good buys are hidden under some faded paint!
~much luck! ~sean

08-11-2008, 12:53 PM
When I was recently out there in San Dieago to move my mother-n-law back here to Ohio! They took me to the ocean and It was around 9 o-clock in the evening. the waves comming in was a nice sound to hear. But that was the only thing that was nice. The air smelled terrable, no grass, no real dirt to grow things with out watering twiced a day. The air smelled like boric acid all the time. To me it was hot, even though the temp. stayed around 74 degrees. Just not my preferance for a place to live. But like you said the cars are rust free out there and I really wanted this one guys alltrack from out there but was unable to purchase it do to a finacal problem that came up. Going back out there in late fall to drive her car back out here for her. Praying for my finances to strighten out so has to may be still purchase it but time is running out. Thank for the heads up on the craigs list, just never quite could figure out how to get on craigs list to look for cars. I would always type in craigs list cars for sale and go through the list that would come up. Any way would get bored and close it out soon after I was on it. As of right now I am balancing out the differance in just buying another JDM 3sge for my celica or rebuilding the motor I have! To the present, Getting a wire welder today so I can start my electric car conversion with the chevy novas so I can have some extra money to purchasewhat ever I want. This is a back yard project but will turn into a full shop set up soon. Might be the frist electric 4th gen celica ever and still ride in style, but burn no gas. Ca-ching, Ca-ching lol...buffalohunter7321

09-01-2008, 05:37 AM
Hows that car comming?

09-02-2008, 06:26 PM
Still have not started on the GTS, but have started on the Electric conversion of my 88 chevy nova. Tring to find a gulf cart electric motor with more hp than 15. Would like to get one with 20+ hp. The stripping it down of all unnessery items is happing now. You have my word that I will post all of the work on the celica...buffalohunter7321

09-02-2008, 08:57 PM
I was just wondering how you were doing on it becasue it occured to me that you have a 3SGE with rod knock and that makes your car a perfect candidate for a hybrid 5SGE. (just use the bottem end of a 5SFE and bolt it onto your 3S head). I have always wanted to do that myself and I would be excited to see sombody else try it.

09-03-2008, 02:21 PM
Is there a thread on that? And will I get rid of the coolling problem with the 5sge that the 3sge has? Do you know where I can pick up a good short block 5sge? And a header for a 3sge too? Would like to know soon so I can get them ordered and have it all ready when I start on it. Don't like to start and stop on project's untill there finished. Just like to start and get it done. Than think out the next project and plan it out. Can you send all the info on doing the hybrid? How much hp would I pick up with this? Will it bolt up to the auto tranny I have and the standard tranny I have also? Can you answer a question for me about my standard tranny? When I got this tranny I did not know that all tranny's did not work on all celica motors and still need to learn more about whitch will fit each motor! what I do know is that my GT-S was registerd for 150 mph and the celica, that was not a GT-S, that I got the standard tranny from was registerd also for a 150mph. I do not know what the # of this standard tranny is, but the year is 87 and I have the clutch-plate and pressure-plate along with the fly wheel setting in my shead. I need to go to a yard to pick up the peddle assembly plus get the cables and shifter console to convert this over to a standard, if this tranny will work.? Now you have done it, I'am excited about doing this Hybird swap...buffalohunter7321

09-03-2008, 04:27 PM
Well I don't know too much about the swap in that I've never really tore apart a block myself. There is an extensive post about the guy who did the hybrid.


The only thing is that the swap is only really easy in a 4th gen GTS becasue if you were to try to swap a 3SGE head onto a 5th gen 5S car, you would have to swap over all the 3SGE wiring and ECU while is you are doing it to a 4th gen GTS, all you need is to bolt on the bottem end of the 5S and do a couple of minor modifications.

I don't know how much power you would pick up, but it does add .2 liters of displacement.

As far as the trannies go, I don't know what tranny was used in those 4th gens but I did think it was the same as the 5th gens. (I could VERY easily be mistaken)

Also, as far as the auto to manual conversion, there is a really decent write up over on toyotacelicaonline.com right here:


(That swap is for a 5th gen)

As for the #3 Cylinder heat problem on the 3sge's,
I'm not sure if using the 5S block would help on not.

You can find a 5S block at almost any salvage yard, they are fairly common.

09-03-2008, 09:57 PM
Do you know of a good site where I could order a good JDM short block? One that is trust worthy. If I can get that short block soon, I'll do it and maybe get my celica up and running befor our Ohio meet this fall. Do you think I should get one of those HKS head gaskets to put the head on along with the HKS head bolts? Maybe if they have it a high volume oil pump too or a new one for sure...buffalohunter7321

09-03-2008, 10:00 PM
Should I get the same year of 5sge as the 3sge? Or is the newer models better?...buffalohunter7321

09-03-2008, 10:04 PM
As far as the trannies go, I don't know what tranny was used in those 4th gens but I did think it was the same as the 5th gens. (I could VERY easily be mistaken)
You are correct to an extent. All forth gens had some version of the S53.

ST/GT 3S-FE: Slightly modified case with two equal length axles. I've heard the gearing is different as well, but haven't confirmed it. Starter location is also different.

GT-S 3S-GE: Identicle to the 5S version. Even takes the same exact axles.

All-Trac 3S-GTE: Slap a rear diff, transfer case, and driveshaft on the GE version and this is basically what you get. :)

In any case, they'll all bolt up to a 5S block, but if you go fourth gen you're going to get the best results and easiest install with the GE version. Using any 5S tranny would work as well, S53 or S54.

09-03-2008, 11:31 PM
I didn't get the site, but there was a guy talking about a good jdm site over on the main part of the general discussion forum.

I don't know any advantages to using a later model 5S other then a fresher block and maybe a few minor refinements.

09-06-2008, 12:19 PM
I have a quick one my 89 stock came with a 3s-fe, can i slap a 3s-ge head on that puppy without doing anything to the lower half?
or will it take some internal modding?
And what are my alternitives for a head swap???

09-06-2008, 08:37 PM
Went through alot of the general forums and did find that thread. Sent him a reply and as of today have not heard back from him.

09-06-2008, 11:03 PM
I have a quick one my 89 stock came with a 3s-fe, can i slap a 3s-ge head on that puppy without doing anything to the lower half?
or will it take some internal modding?
And what are my alternitives for a head swap???
It will bolt right on, but you don't want to do it.

1. You'd have to use the GE ecu.
2. The block under the FE is slightly weaker.
3. The transmission is weaker as well.
4. The bottom end under the FE has a six bolt crank instead of an eight.

Since you have the whole GE setup, you're much better off just swapping everything over, including the tranny.

09-07-2008, 01:29 AM
Ok CriSco, let me see if I got this streight! I am to take the short block of a 5sfe, use my 3sge tranny, auto or standard. And use my 3sge head on top of the 5sfe block. Extend my exhaust down pipe by almost two inches, or header if I can find one. Whitch starter would I use? If this is right, it seems semple enough to do, beside the grinding of the head for the water to circulate and useing the 5sfe head gasket. If I missed anything plese let me know...buffalohunter7321

09-07-2008, 06:40 AM
Ok CriSco, let me see if I got this streight! I am to take the short block of a 5sfe, use my 3sge tranny, auto or standard. And use my 3sge head on top of the 5sfe block. Extend my exhaust down pipe by almost two inches, or header if I can find one. Whitch starter would I use? If this is right, it seems semple enough to do, beside the grinding of the head for the water to circulate and useing the 5sfe head gasket. If I missed anything plese let me know...buffalohunter7321
You're on the right track. As for the starter, either will work and shouldn't have to be relocated. I've had both side by side and the older version is actually a stronger design, IMO. The mount and gear are the same, the older version just has a larger motor.

You only have to worry about relocation if you're starting with a 3S-FE.

09-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Prase the Lord, now all i have to do is find a 5sfe short block. Called my mechanic and he is also in need of one, but not as a hybrid, as I am. Would like to get a JDM one if possible. Would anyone know where I could get one either american or JDM? ...buffalohunter7321

09-08-2008, 06:43 PM
One other thing I need to know is what timming belt do I use? The 3sge or the 5sfe? And I seen where a member had some cams for sale, I think they our bigger than I want, but would like to get a set of cams just above the stock cams of the 3sge ones. Could you give me that # and maybe a good guess at there cost? And will I be able to still use the stock timming belt with the bigger cams?

11-15-2008, 09:09 AM
buffalohunter hey man still check this out? i got my gts swapped you gotta see it!
looks just like yours! lol