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View Full Version : Toyota crushes hopes for a sportscar in America...



Ghosty
06-27-2008, 08:12 PM
This was reported a while back, in May actually, but I just read it now and didn't know if others knew about it yet.

It's well-known now that Toyota and Subaru have been collaborating on a RWD sports coupe for some time- a vehicle with a 2.0L Subaru flat-four. The first rumors began that a new AE86 (Tureno/Levin) was going to be produced AND shipped to the US. Shortly after, the rumor changed, and all the sudden it wasn't an AE86, but the newest generation of Celica.

Well, times they are a changing.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/28/subaru-rwd-coupe-will-be-sold-worldwide-toyota-version-only-in/

The vehicle WILL make it to American shores. But NOT as a Toyota, but a Subaru. The Toyota-badged model will only be sold in Japan. As what? Who knows.

Here's a link to a test mule that looks like a Legacy or Lexus IS300:

http://www.nextautos.com/body-stylesmarket-segment/coupes/spied-first-ever-look-at-toyota-subaru-rwd-coupe/

I'm still trying to figure out for myself if it's that big a deal. On one hand, it wouldn't be a pure Toyota sports car. Celicas never came with flat-fours, and have mostly been FWD or AWD in the most recent generations.

On the other, it shows that Toyota has no desire to bring any kind of sporty automobile to the US. If we had a Toyota sports car, even if it was fundamentally a Subaru, at least that would be inspiration for Toyota to begin producing sports cars in America.

I really think Toyota is missing a core component of the market, a component that Scion can't hope to fulfill. The way I see it, Mazda fills the segment that Toyota should spend some time looking into, and try to emulate a sort of Mazdaspeed-caliber sports car.

extremeskillz
06-27-2008, 08:47 PM
I agree. TOyota isn't listening to there hardcore fan base who want Toyota sports cars be it celica or supra or a two door corolla...all either RWD or AWD. I just don't understand it but if they don't do something soon im going else where!

tekstep01
06-27-2008, 09:04 PM
its sad, how toyota lost its magic. i still have to buy old used and abused toyotas to feel the true pull of a good strong motor, and exp. good craftsmanship. im on my fourth used celica, an 89' st and its nothing worthy of showing off but a true piece of toyota engineering....
I myself would love to see a mid-priced FR two-door in america and a scion is not gonna cut it.. it has to wear a toyota badge. period. the last good car toyota produced was the supras (late models) sad how they lost their way.
LONG LIVE THE HATCHI' & LONG LIVE TRD!

burnyd
06-27-2008, 09:22 PM
eh, why sell sports cars when you lose money and make money off of grandas camry?

Ghosty
06-27-2008, 09:38 PM
eh, why sell sports cars when you lose money and make money off of grandas camry?

Were the Toyota sports cars actually losing money for the company, though?

I can understand if the turbo models were causing a loss (mostly because of the cost to insure the age bracket these cars were designed to suit). But for the N/A models? Was there really a loss?

Chris
06-27-2008, 10:52 PM
Were the Toyota sports cars actually losing money for the company, though?

I can understand if the turbo models were causing a loss (mostly because of the cost to insure the age bracket these cars were designed to suit). But for the N/A models? Was there really a loss?


I don't have any statistics, but look at the numbers. The sells, even for the 7th FWD Celica, had dwindled until they shut it off in 2005. The Supras were pretty expensive, and the Celicas really didn't have much to bring to the market after the GT4/All-trac.

And, for many car owners, why would they spend money on a Celica? The latest generation, the 7th gens, were good cars, and quick too, no doubt.
But the 7th gen wasn't a sports car, and there were other options available in and around that price range, like the 350z, the Miata, and the Mustang.

But that's just my take on it. If the Celica had evolved after 2005, Toyota could have captured some of the market. But they didn't.

Trance4c
06-27-2008, 11:45 PM
Ya, its not gunna happen right now with all the market conditions and economy of the US right now. This week especially if anything made Japan shelve that idea.

CollapsedNut
06-27-2008, 11:47 PM
I think Toyota is using its history of long life cars to sell into the market where probably 80% of the new car buyers are looking right now, cheap, fuel efficent, and long running life. Really there thinking smart money wise. Scion is and probably will be the only form of toyota sport compacts to come on the american market for awhile. Think of it like when your favorite band sold out, went in for money and not the music, Toyotas going in for money and not the fans.

3SmeCaptain
06-28-2008, 12:27 AM
it's too bad really...

i own a scion xB *1st gen*, it feels sporty only because it only weighs around 2,300lbs. both the 1st gen xB and xA were basically glorified Echo's and Yaris's where as the tC is the glorified Camery and called the "sports car of scion" when really, after a few simple mods, the xB and xA are both MUCH faster then the tC because of the weight differences between the models. the new 2nd gen xB is actually Toyota Japan's Toyota Rumion or AKA Toyota's new JDM Corolla wagon which even though labeled "JDM" was actually designed in the US and released in Japan first, then US second. the xD model being the roomier remake of the 7th gen Celica to my understanding.

the only thing i can think of is what Toyota might actually do is bring out it's Scion Fuse from only a design exercise to a street driven possibility. it's apparently going to be 2010's scion tC replacement and the original 2AZFE 2.4L engine will be used though i highly doubt it for the size of the front end and the talks about a turbo engine with a good amount of power and a beefy intercooler in the front.

at this point i don't think anyone can really know much about what Toyota's plans are... lately they've been working in secret with alot of things.

tuner4life
06-28-2008, 01:32 AM
I could even appriceate if Scion brought out a good light FR sports car, because even if nobody here wants to admit it, it still is a toyota. I can see where toyota is going with scion. They are putting all of the "youth lifestyle" vehicles in a category and letting the rest of the adult population drive the rest of toyota. But At the same time, the only sports car that scion has made is the tc (now I'm not baging on the others even if they are lighter, but you cant tell me that they are sports cars.) The tc is the closest they have to anything really sporty, and it is just isnt comparable to say a 350z or anything else. Anymore though every import company's rear wheel drive stuff is just too expensive.

Ghosty
06-28-2008, 07:24 AM
The tc is the closest they have to anything really sporty, and it is just isnt comparable to say a 350z or anything else. Anymore though every import company's rear wheel drive stuff is just too expensive.

I really don't buy into the whole TC thing. It seems like they just wanted a car to fit a segment they didn't already have, so they slammed a chassis together (Avenesis/ large family car) with an existing power plant (2.4L 2AZ-FE designed for Camry).

Ummm... yeah... a family sedan chassis and an oversized, economy engine doesn't make for a sports coupe. I don't care if it has 160hp. The base GT model Celica of the same year had 20 less horsepower, but at least it weighed 300 pounds less and got 4 more mpg.

So really, the Scion isn't good at performance OR economy. It's a mistake in my opinion (no offense to scion owners either, it's still a comfortable ride at a reasonable price).

Yeah, I know you can buy a TRD supercharger on warranty for an extra $3,000 and get the pig of a car up to 200 horsepower. But wouldn't it make more sense just to use the Celica chassis, throw in a 200 hp BEAMS 3SGE, and have a true RSX or Civic SI beater? Now THAT would have sold cars AND gained the Scion brand some street cred.

3SmeCaptain
07-01-2008, 08:03 PM
Toyota just seems to be turning into another american brand vehicle...

the tC is NOT a sports car, no matter what the company says about it. i've driven all three models when they all came out and still think the xA and xB are much sportier feeling then the heavier so called sport coupe tC is. now the newer 2nd gen xB is out and is labeled "sport utility" over the 1st gen yet the 2nd gen is almost half a ton heavier then the 1st gen and it uses the tC/Camery engine and is just as sluggish as the tC and the new xD is the none sporty labeled vehicle and is actually the more fun to drive then the sporty labeled vehicles! :wtf: