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ciento44
06-06-2008, 03:01 PM
Yep... Screw all ya'all with your little 5-7 degrees advanced from stock.

How does about 20-25 advanced from stock sound?

The story:

My car has been running wierd since i got it. Torquey as hell in lower rpms, i almost thought freakishly so. But, it lost EVERYTHING above 4k rpms. I've driven it for months like this, even beat the hell out of it on the dragon like this.

Finally got a timing light on it last night. (I know, should have done it first.) I did this with the intention of advancing the timing to get that small power bump.

Get the light on the car..... uhmmm..... wtf.

I can't even tell what kind of an advance i was running, the notch was showing about an inch off the end of the indicator that showed +15.

That would explain the stupid power i had at 2k rpms, at least.

Now, it gets weird. I put it back down to +15, and i lost low end, the car's powerband before 4k isn't as smooth anymore, and i gained nothing in top end. It sounds a little better, though.

I don't know what to do. The car is really starting to frustrate me with how damn slow it is, it's not even remotely entertaining. The white car was an entirely different animal, and i've driven a couple 6th gens in the last 3 days, and they all felt like the white car did.

It's definitely a rev2 engine just like the white car, the engine SOUNDS healthier than the white car, has no oil leaks, no leaks of anything, no valvetrain noise, the valve seals don't even leak, but it just doesn't run as strong as really any other 5sfe celica that i've driven.

So.... i needs help. Start throwing ideas out there for me. :(

johnL
06-06-2008, 05:15 PM
HAHA now you know what I was talking about. I should post my dyno at 22 advanced. That was just a guess by the way since there is no real way to tell besides measuring. I had peak torque at like 2800 rpm and peak power around 4. Put the car back down to 15 and it ran like crap. Just turned it back up and left it.

Try running it on E85 that far advanced!! You just might like your car again. :)

ciento44
06-06-2008, 05:42 PM
HAHA now you know what I was talking about. I should post my dyno at 22 advanced. That was just a guess by the way since there is no real way to tell besides measuring. I had peak torque at like 2800 rpm and peak power around 4. Put the car back down to 15 and it ran like crap. Just turned it back up and left it.

Try running it on E85 that far advanced!! You just might like your car again. :)


Yeah... god only knows how many miles this thing has run that far advanced. It may have relearned somehow, because i hate it at 15 even more than i hated it at whatever it was. I'm gearing up to finish getting the lines for E85, so i'll crank it back up at that point i guess.

I seriously think i was closer to +30 than +20. It was FAR off the end.

To convert to E85, do i really need anything more than those stainless lines? Will stock injectors keep up with the added flow needed? I believe they will, i just want to make sure. :)

Any ideas as to the huge difference between my two cars? I haven't checked the timing on the white one yet, it'll be running again tomorrow, so i can do it then, but i'm just trying to figure out what the heck could be so different.

johnL
06-06-2008, 06:01 PM
I didn't know of changing anything to run E85. I sold my 88 alltrac to my brother schmleff and he runs E85 without changing anything. He even removed the vac line so he can run what ever the 1st gen CT26 can push (nothing more then 14psi). Once my engine is back in my celica (1st gen 3SGTE into a 5th gen celica) I will be running it on E85.

As far as injectors keeping up. Unless you are making more then 15X hp you should be fine. Play it nice for awhile when you first switch then start cranking that timing up.

I know on my wife's WRX the ecu learns how you drive but I don't think they on ours. Who knows, reset your ecu once and see if it's better.

Quick story about timing. I was driving home from montana with my celica and the bolt for the dizzy fell out and the dizzy turned as far as it would go. The car didn't make much power and it did ping on 87 octane (lol I didn't know it advanced or I would have ran 93). I don't know how many miles I went like that but the trip is 1200 miles.

Your rod bearings will take on heck of a beating being advanced that far.

ciento44
06-06-2008, 06:31 PM
The issue with the lines is that E85 is mildly corrosive, and on 16 year old fuel lines, i'd rather not take the chance of wearing through any of them. I think there's only two to replace anyways, and they're relatively short.

I'm on a crusade against rubber lines on my car, anyways. :hehe:

The potential issue i have with the injectors isn't the HP issue, because yes, we all know that on gasoline, the stock injectors are good to 15x or so. However, you flow more E85 to get to the same HP level, so i'm worried about running out of injector at maybe 120whp or so.

johnL
06-06-2008, 06:45 PM
You have a good point there. I don't have an answer for you on power rating of E85.

You just want to be able to say you have stainless on your car is all. ;)

CriScO
06-06-2008, 08:41 PM
Just a quick note, I don't know the specifics but the Celica ECU does learn driving habits and compensates for them. It has to be a fairly old system, because even mine do it, but it's there. All of the technical articles cover the re-learn procedure for when the battery has been dissconnected. I'd imagine it's really basic, but it does exsist.

Žusty
06-06-2008, 11:22 PM
Just a quick note, I don't know the specifics but the Celica ECU does learn driving habits and compensates for them. It has to be a fairly old system, because even mine do it, but it's there. All of the technical articles cover the re-learn procedure for when the battery has been dissconnected. I'd imagine it's really basic, but it does exsist.


sweet I'm going to connect my car up to the ps2 and play GT4, which will make it go faster right? :laugh:


so it was perfectly good before you did work on it?
maybe its got something to do with fuel or air??

worst comes to the worst, go get it dyno and tuned

MrTurrari
06-07-2008, 01:00 AM
Have you checked your cam timing? It sounds like one or both of the cams are advanced.

And I can also verify that the rev2 ECU learns as you drive and sets up timing to avoid knock.

greenmachine87
06-09-2008, 05:55 AM
i was told to run E85 you have to run 25% more fuel so might need injectors.
i was thinkingabout doing it but dont know where to get the lines from.

ciento44
06-10-2008, 03:53 PM
Have you checked your cam timing? It sounds like one or both of the cams are advanced.

And I can also verify that the rev2 ECU learns as you drive and sets up timing to avoid knock.

Haven't checked the cam timing yet. Maybe this week. I'm getting a compression test done tomorrow.

I got my coupe running on Sunday, and it's completely depressing how much faster it is. My buddy and i went out to a backroad, and he's never driven a Celica before, and even with him driving the coupe, he pulled 7-9 cars on me by 80mph. The coupe has twice the miles, a full interior, a full stereo sytem, and the hatch is stripped, and a "fresher" motor.

This was 2 hours after we got the coupe running after it had sat for almost 3 months. We didn't even put new gas in it or anything. Fired it and went.

Would the cams being off make that sharp power dropoff above 4k?

At that point, it also starts to sound really weird. I'm not sure how to describe it, it gets really harsh sounding. Luni may be able to better describe it, he's heard it.

I guess i'll check all of this again tomorrow. :( With how much lighter this car is now than the coupe, it should at least be entertaining to drive, and it just sucks now.

ciento44
06-11-2008, 03:35 PM
sweet I'm going to connect my car up to the ps2 and play GT4, which will make it go faster right? :laugh:


so it was perfectly good before you did work on it?
maybe its got something to do with fuel or air??

worst comes to the worst, go get it dyno and tuned

No, it was always slow since i had it.