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VikingJZ
05-07-2008, 07:49 PM
http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=sipboy3000&gclid=CJbrnqOFlZMCFQXHPAoduHpZAQ




This is a recirculating ad on ClubLexus similar to what we have running at the top of our pages.


Anyone buy this idea? I have seen videos of it working, and would LOVE to do it to my 72 Celica once its running (Because that car is easier/cheaper to rebuild engine wise than the Lexus)



The government is in contract with this guy to build Hummer's that run on water or gas.




Its interesting and I'd like to do it.

19celica90
05-07-2008, 07:53 PM
yeah i heard about this from a guy that i work with. I guess this is actually true and may happen. I'll read it later, but its a good find!

grayscale
05-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Discovery series a while back called Future Car went into it, interesting, had one that runs on air too.

VikingJZ
05-07-2008, 08:11 PM
So would it be viable to do?

If it costs $60 for materials...why isn't everyone doing it?

extremeskillz
05-07-2008, 08:13 PM
Yep its possible but i would be concerned that someone is selling plans already for this. I would seriously do if there are a shit load of reviews as references.

spaztheweird1
05-08-2008, 12:40 AM
they are testing it tonight on the local 12 news in west palm on a work car so ill tell you about it tomorrow when i wake up if they say it works and they are lieing its like 2 grand for the setup or at least the one the news is testing

GT4SOM
05-08-2008, 01:56 AM
I remember watching that segment on the news. Its a local guy around here. This would be great if it went mainstream in America. Doesn't the middle east have to import their water?? LOL I can see them being pwned, hopefully in my life time lol.

Edit: most likely its fake. :smokin:

MrWOT
05-08-2008, 02:17 AM
:laugh:

Total fucking snake oil sale right there. Yeah, it's possible but there are serious issues. Numero uno being that you need to use distilled water to do it, so unless you have a portable, super fast RO system, you're not going outside your hometown unless you carry your water with you, which just cost you more in mileage than the conversion could have saved you, so yeah. Second that you don't get anywhere near the BTUs you get with gasoline, so converting just any old vehicle will get you nothing short of a gutless shitbox that is a pita to refuel. If you did it to like a geo metro, then whopee! But a metro already gets over 30mpg so it would already be more fuel efficient than burning an equivilant of distilled water. It'd be neat for shitz n' gigglez, but unless you've got a good RO system that you can carry around with you, not useful.

GT4SOM
05-08-2008, 02:43 AM
I've been looking through a bunch of websites, I found them all running this hho gas into their manifold through the vacuum lines. I'm not sure if I wanna try this. I have yet to find any kind of blog of someone "actually" using this hho to mix in with the fuel.

lburner
05-08-2008, 06:56 AM
i'm ma go with the MythBusters on this one. its busted

better video for the hho gas shit http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=660759158947266385

spaztheweird1
05-08-2008, 03:16 PM
ok so the news tested it last night and they tested a dodge on the dyno before they got 9 mile to the gallon then after it they got 22 miles heres the link the news website (http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28)

lburner
05-08-2008, 07:33 PM
i guess now we can kill over water.. not oil or gas

VikingJZ
05-08-2008, 07:48 PM
I will start saving for the hydro system. Most likely, it will go into my first gen, because its lighter, smaller and gets better mileage. Plus, it doesn't have as much crap that could go wrong, but from the looks of the Hydro4000 website, its actually pretty safe and can't be harmful to the car.

91GTvert
05-08-2008, 07:53 PM
just try water injection. its very simple, water turns to steam when hot, and steam takes up a large volume compared to liquid water, so if you pipe a small amount of water into the intake runners when the car is hot, say...during a long trip, this increases cylinder pressure and thus you need throttle, and thus less fuel to keep going at the same speeds. Anyone who ever has had a slight seep in the head gasket knows that this works. My corolla was getting 54mpg highway at 70+mph when I had a very slight leak, and that was on a 400 mile round trip. I figure, a very small amount of distilled water held in a windshield washer reservoir and piped into the runners at a low rate (say through NO2 spray jets) it will vaporize with the gasoline upon ignition and flash into steam. Think of the steam cannon from mythbusters, except the cannon ball is your piston. It shouldn't shoot out though. Thats why you have exhaust valves and a crankshaft. I figure someone could do this for under $50 including pulling the intake manifold and tapping out the holes in the runners. I might just give it a try on the corolla once that is running.

I forgot to add:
The news station says they ran it on the dyno right after the tune up , so if the air filter or anything was dirty before hand then the ECU was adjusted for those conditions and dumped in more gas. They may have also changed their driving habits after the install or the time that it was hooked up allowed the ECU to adjust to the tuned up engine. As we all know, new plugs and a can of seafoam bring up mileage a bunch, and driving habits alone can raise mileage by 30%. If the news van was a beaten up POS, then maybe the tune up alone did the trick. I'd like to know what type of maintenance schedule they have their vehicles on.

spaztheweird1
05-08-2008, 09:11 PM
i bet a news truck thats ran every day all day is well kept

GT4SOM
05-09-2008, 02:32 AM
I will start saving for the hydro system. Most likely, it will go into my first gen, because its lighter, smaller and gets better mileage. Plus, it doesn't have as much crap that could go wrong, but from the looks of the Hydro4000 website, its actually pretty safe and can't be harmful to the car.
Try making your own home made hho kit. Its pretty easy, just google it and it should only run you about 60 bucks. LOL. I think I'm gonna play with this, on the scion that is. I wonder how this would hold up in a Turbo car..

spaztheweird1
05-09-2008, 09:11 PM
i searched google and i find crappy adds selling how tos but real direction

VikingJZ
05-09-2008, 11:36 PM
The problem with the homemade kits is that you don't know if you get it right, you might screw something up.

spaztheweird1
05-09-2008, 11:46 PM
i did find a couple places and things its not hard to build the unit it just the getting the map and o2 sensor working right with it

3SmeCaptain
05-10-2008, 09:47 PM
I actually have my own cell design that i've been working on for some time now. but don't be fooled, yes it is possible and actually possible to run your motor fully with hydroxy *Oxygen stable hydrogen vapor*. i can tell you right now the use of a cheaper design that costs you 60-150 bucks is not going to give you results that will be beneficial. most of these incorporate a single cell design which only uses a single electrode to do the work. this does work to a point, but not enough for a real application. you need to use what's known as a series cell design where there is an array of electrodes being used inside a single cell.

for example - my cell uses 57 electrodes inside of a 4" diameter tank thats about 16 inches tall. this with other additives like thermo electrolysis where the water is heated to a point to increase breakdown efficiency can be increased nearly 300% higher and the use of what's known as a PWM *Pulse Width Modulator* to pulse the power sent to the cell to also increase efficiency and output based on demand or throttle control. materials used must also be highly corrosive resistant such as higher grade of stainless steels like T316 marine grade stainless and 7074 alloy aluminum. also, to deal with high water temps. and the need to see inside the cell at all times for observation, the tank walls would need to be made out of polycarbonate material to withstand high heat and high pressure.

my cell is made with such materials and costs nowhere near 60-150 bucks... try more around 1,500-2,000 depend on the vehicle it's being used on, how much wire is needed and whether the motor is a 4cyl 6cyl or 8cyl. it does work though, i've been able to get an older nissan KA24E to run off my prototype cell. i couldn't do much other then get it running on idle though, i didn't have a stand-alone ecu to map out the fuel and ignition sequence. every time i tried to rev it a bit higher, i would actually end up with too MUCH fuel in the cylinders which with hydrogen, thats somewhat dangerous unlike gasoline where it just floods. so i felt it was unsafe at that point and parked the experiment. my new cell is design to be controlled through the throttle and tachometer.

you CAN use a cell as a hydrobooster on your motor though without much difference in tuning. if you are running stock, you wont need to mess with anything. just run the hydrogen vapor fuel like into your intake plenum and the vapor will do it's job and the stock ecu will correct the fuel ratio as it needs and you WILL see an economy difference. if you're not running stock, you may need to do some slight tweaks. you can expect to see anywhere from 10-50% gain in economy or even higher depending on your tunning. if you go full on hydrogen, you'll need to do a completely custom and unique mapping of your ecu and you MUST use a stand alone to do it. also, do know this is not the path of 100% efficiency so before anyone says other wise, it's not. if you run full hydrogen, yes you may see a higher economy then normal. could be upto double of what you have before because of the amount of energy hydrogen holds. but it will act just like gas, the more power you want, the less economy you will have. you'll just be using a fuel source that is so ridiculously abundant on this planet that all you need to do is filter and distill your water before using it... big freakin deal.




sorry for the long post...

3SmeCaptain
05-10-2008, 10:09 PM
a couple screen shots from my AutoCAD.

this one is of the electrode size. this is getting a realistic view of what i have to work with with a specific setup.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/Emobulus/asgyhsdfg.jpg

this one is of the electrode layout inside of the cell tank. white circles represent the maximum outer diameter of the individual electrodes. the red circle with the the few fins on one side *there is actually three fin fixture points filling out those void spots* is the copper tube+fin thermal heating unit. this piece passes engine coolant through from the heater core to transfer some of the heat thats generated by the engine into the cell to bring it's optimum temp up for the best production zone to be reached. the blue outer circles are the representation of the cell/tank wall, a tube similar to a plexi glass tube only it's made with polycarbonate instead.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/Emobulus/vghjdfgjh.jpg

91GTvert
05-11-2008, 12:58 AM
oxygen stabilized hydrogen?, well lets see
oxygen, or O2, with hydrogen, H....H is not stable, and wants to bind to something....thats why there is very very little free hydrogen in our atmosphere, it binds to O making.....water...which covers ~70% of the earth?

its a water injection kit, or if not, please explain to me how exactly oxygen stabilizes hydrogen without being water.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, it just sounds ridiculous, and this is not coming from an uneducated person

3SmeCaptain
05-11-2008, 04:00 AM
the difference between H2O *water* and HHO *hydroxy or Oxygen Stable Hydrogen* is that H2O is an already bonded molecule where as HHO is none bonded vapor consisting of 2 to 1 hydrogen and oxygen atoms that are in close proximity but not bonded. eventually over time they will re-bond slowly, if a spark were to be introduced, the bond would be prematurely started and at a VERY violent rate causing extreme heat generation or in other words combustion/explosion.

water inject is simple, you spray a small amount of water into the cylinder to slow the burn of gas which acts as an octane booster.

hydroxy is created by using an electrical charge through an electrode consisting of an Anode *positive* and Cathode *negative*. each side is close to one another but not touching. using a low voltage/high amper current, it creates an electronically induced magnetic pull on the H2O molecules, O being negative and H2 being positive, they attract to each opposite electrical pull creating a gashes vapor that is HHO or H+H+O. at this point the vapor is a none bonded gas that has high amounts of potential while it is still in it's form. again though, you can't store it so you use it as you generate it. once the violent chemical bond is triggered and and the energy released is during the ignition stroke of the piston, the ending result is a bonded H2O water vapor that is pushed out the exhaust. the funny thing is, there is less water vapor from this then there is from burning gas, the only thing you would need to do is use a stainless steel exhaust pipe and a stainless steel high flow cat *if you still use one*.

3SmeCaptain
05-12-2008, 03:47 AM
here, i've taken the time to do a drawing for you to make it a little easier to interpret. sometimes my examples can be worded a little... weird.

here is the drawing of the system - http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/Emobulus/HHOworkings3.jpg

it's a large image in physical size but small in terms of quality so it should be easy to upload.

the only thing i see being a problem for turbo engines is the iron exhaust housing. it would need to be ceramic coded on the inside or if someone had the money, have a T316 stainless steel machined exact copy of the housing. though i'm not sure if would be much of a problem because of how hot the vapor is. i'm sure a weak inner check valve could be used. when the engine is off, the check valve would be open allowing any residual vapor in the exhaust housing and piping to vent out while when the engine is running, the flowing exhaust would keep the valve closed.

then again though, i haven't tested the system on a turbo engine yet, only N/A engines.

Conrad_Turbo
05-12-2008, 04:45 PM
Please describe how much power it takes to split the water molecule and how much useable power output there is from the engine that is consuming the split water molecule.

3SmeCaptain
05-13-2008, 09:44 PM
Please describe how much power it takes to split the water molecule and how much useable power output there is from the engine that is consuming the split water molecule.

generally, if it's a hydro-booster setup *hybrid fuel of gasoline and hydroxy* you more then likely wouldn't pull more then 10amp. 10amp is about the same as running your stock car stereo at somewhat high volume. most anyone with a subwoofer system in their car is pulling ALOT more power from the car's stock alternator.

using the cell on full hydrogen, no gas, will draw more power but not enough to bog the engine down at all. my cell design is powered by a 80amp maximum PWM unit. it's power range works from 0.5amp to 80amp. the more ampers, the more production of fuel there is. the PWM unit is about twice as powerful then what's needed for my design, but i couldn't find a simple PWM that was 40amp, it was either a 24amp or an 80amp so i grabbed an 80 so i had lots of headroom to play with, cost difference was about 20 bucks.

so the example would be as so:

Based off of a 13.8volt constant.
hydro-booster setup - 0.5-15amp, normally 10amp average = 7-207watt aprox
full hydrogen setup - 0.5-40amp, 7-552watt aprox
full hydrogen setup capable - 0.5-80amp, 7-1,104watt aprox

then again, this isn't saying that you'd be pulling the maximum amount all the time. there are variations to take into account, like cruising, in town driving, driving habits, throttle control and all that. i also have never seen a full hydrogen setup pulling over 30amp before either, highest i've seen is around 28 amp and that was on a carb. V6. i set 40amp as a max goal of draw based on the fact that a fuel injected engine is much more efficient and on a turbo engine it would be able to supply to necessary fuel when the burst of energy from the turbo is going full in.

unless you were to pull the maximum amount of power, most vehicles could take the abuse. otherwise, an aftermarket alternator would be needed which even then isn't much strain difference on the engine. a stock 2nd gen 3SGTE is 220hp, that's 164kw of power *164,054watt or joules*, that's ALOT of available power. even if you were cruising or at low rpm where you'd be sitting around 10 or 15hp being generated, thats 7,457-11,185.5watt of running power. the application would be perfectly more then fine if a high output alternator is used.

3SmeCaptain
05-13-2008, 09:55 PM
also, if you are curious as to how the engine would be started. all you need is a separate battery. for example, a small Kinetik Audio HC600 battery would do just fine. use it to build up a starting amount of vapor for the engine to crank over with. after the engine starts, the alternator will take over the job. all you need is a battery that can supply roughly 100-200watt for about 10 seconds and you should be set.

i havn't tested this yet, but in theory it would work. my idea was to put a power supply in my engine bay and just plug it into a house hold plug in like those electric cars and have a small heating circuit using the thermal heatsink as a heating element to have the cell pre-heated and supplied with plenty of juice.

ofcourse... if you ever plan on having a pissed off girlfreind or wife who is on the killing rampage after you... this setup is not recommended for a quick get away unless the power supply is setup in a way that it is easy to just back up quickly and let the power cable just unplug it's self... :P

Conrad_Turbo
05-14-2008, 05:42 PM
generally, if it's a hydro-booster setup *hybrid fuel of gasoline and hydroxy* you more then likely wouldn't pull more then 10amp. 10amp is about the same as running your stock car stereo at somewhat high volume. most anyone with a subwoofer system in their car is pulling ALOT more power from the car's stock alternator.

using the cell on full hydrogen, no gas, will draw more power but not enough to bog the engine down at all. my cell design is powered by a 80amp maximum PWM unit. it's power range works from 0.5amp to 80amp. the more ampers, the more production of fuel there is. the PWM unit is about twice as powerful then what's needed for my design, but i couldn't find a simple PWM that was 40amp, it was either a 24amp or an 80amp so i grabbed an 80 so i had lots of headroom to play with, cost difference was about 20 bucks.

so the example would be as so:

Based off of a 13.8volt constant.
hydro-booster setup - 0.5-15amp, normally 10amp average = 7-207watt aprox
full hydrogen setup - 0.5-40amp, 7-552watt aprox
full hydrogen setup capable - 0.5-80amp, 7-1,104watt aprox

then again, this isn't saying that you'd be pulling the maximum amount all the time. there are variations to take into account, like cruising, in town driving, driving habits, throttle control and all that. i also have never seen a full hydrogen setup pulling over 30amp before either, highest i've seen is around 28 amp and that was on a carb. V6. i set 40amp as a max goal of draw based on the fact that a fuel injected engine is much more efficient and on a turbo engine it would be able to supply to necessary fuel when the burst of energy from the turbo is going full in.

unless you were to pull the maximum amount of power, most vehicles could take the abuse. otherwise, an aftermarket alternator would be needed which even then isn't much strain difference on the engine. a stock 2nd gen 3SGTE is 220hp, that's 164kw of power *164,054watt or joules*, that's ALOT of available power. even if you were cruising or at low rpm where you'd be sitting around 10 or 15hp being generated, thats 7,457-11,185.5watt of running power. the application would be perfectly more then fine if a high output alternator is used.

The question I am asking is in regards for a full hydrogen running engine using 40 amps (552 W)of power to split the water molecules, what is the net continous useable power output of the engine? Any dyno numbers? How much (mass flow rate) "hydroxy" does this engine consume at idle? How about during other rpm points?

Anyone can produce hydrogen, however it takes a lot of energy to split enough water molecules to keep an engine running on pure hydrogen. I'm leaving conventional fuel out of this, since it's too easy to muddy the water by including gasoline in the equation.

Your posts come across as if you have created a free source of energy, get a battery to break some water molecule bonds, get a motor running, draw power from the alternator to break more water molecule bonds and have the engine run and create useable power. Sorry I don't believe it, if that was the case we'd be driving water powered cars by now. I'm putting money down that your 40 amp draw won't produce enough hydrogen to keep an engine running, let alone have that engine produce useable power. I'll leave it to you to prove it with real world results. :D

3SmeCaptain
05-14-2008, 09:38 PM
when i had the cell running on a KA24E, it only require about 7 amps to get it to idle off of my much less efficient prototype cell i had before i made alot of improvements. the improved design is several hundred percent more efficient due to it's thermal heating and the use of a PWM unit. but like i said, i havn't actually gotten an engine to run fully off the cell yet. i need to get a full stand alone ECU in order to do that, i was only using the stock ECU for the KA24E. also, i didn't have the tools at the time to readjust the timing correctly, so it sounded bogged and eventually rust started forming. when you don't readjust the timing, the flashing burn of the hydrogen will burn off any lubrication oil on the cylinder walls, readjusting the timing so that the pistons are near dead center top when it fires will get the most out of the hydroxy while at the same time it doesn't have a chance to burn off the oil and internal rusting is no longer a problem.

the only reason why we can't just have these cells built into our vehicles is because the car companies would be putting the gas companies out of business AND they can't do that because it's illegal to block out another companies business with your own. similar to a construction crew working on a road way and they block off a business entrance, that business has every right to call the police and have the construction crew fined. same thing goes for car companies equipping vehicles with water fuel cells. this is why companies are making hydrogen vehicles that use a storage tank that hold pure hydrogen, it gives the gas company an option to stay in business. they just need to spend the time to create some hydrogen production facilities.

believe it our, there are hundreds of people who are running fully off of hydroxy from a water fuel cell and THOUSANDS more who have their own design that they are working on specifically for their vehicle. mine is just a power mongrel designed to produce ALOT, unlike other hand-fulls of designs that are made to fit in a certain area, mine is just a cylinder shaped tank that is about as tall as a coffee thermal bottle and as big in diameter as a soft ball base ball is round.

as soon as my cell is complete and tested, i would be more the glad to post videos of it's work in progress. i intend on trying it on my 3S turbo when i've finished building it. thanks to some helpful people on here, i'll be spending ALOT less then i originally had planned. i have my 3S just waiting for it's rebuild, but my cell comes first. i just finished my designs a good couple weeks ago and within the next week or so i'm going to be dropping about 2K in ordering the parts and having some machine work done. a few months after that, the 3S should be near it's completion of it's build.

Conrad_Turbo
05-14-2008, 11:06 PM
also, i didn't have the tools at the time to readjust the timing correctly, so it sounded bogged and eventually rust started forming. when you don't readjust the timing, the flashing burn of the hydrogen will burn off any lubrication oil on the cylinder walls, readjusting the timing so that the pistons are near dead center top when it fires will get the most out of the hydroxy while at the same time it doesn't have a chance to burn off the oil and internal rusting is no longer a problem.

And how did you determine this rust problem? What is different about the “flash burn” of hydrogen as compared to gasoline, diesel, alcohol or methanol?


the only reason why we can't just have these cells built into our vehicles is because the car companies would be putting the gas companies out of business AND they can't do that because it's illegal to block out another companies business with your own. similar to a construction crew working on a road way and they block off a business entrance, that business has every right to call the police and have the construction crew fined. same thing goes for car companies equipping vehicles with water fuel cells. this is why companies are making hydrogen vehicles that use a storage tank that hold pure hydrogen, it gives the gas company an option to stay in business. they just need to spend the time to create some hydrogen production facilities.

It's not illegal to put out another business by releasing innovative technology... Obviously the other business isn't evolving or developing quick enough to keep up, in real life that's too bad. Patents are another version of this, it prevents another company from growing, by protecting one companies ideas.

The reason there would be hydrogen stations is because a car cannot generate the power to split the water molecule and have the ability to power the car. The major obstacle is the hydrogen bonds, they require a lot of energy to split…and water has two of them.

Breaking the bonds is difficult, and that’s why water has the ability to hold so much heat energy. Separating hydrogen atoms from water via electrolysis takes 13.7 Kw/h per gallon. You will need an output of 13.7kW, or 18.4 Hp applied over an hour to fully electrolyze one gallon of water. A standard alternator has the output of around 1.9kW (140A @ 13.8V)…hardly enough to electrolyze a gallon of water in one hour. If it wasn’t doing anything else it would take 7-1/4hrs/gallon.

Electrolysis equation:

2H2O -> O2 + 4H+ + 4e-

2 water molecules, 4 hydrogen ions (and four free electrons, not important for this example). You'll get two gallons (about 1/3 of a mole, 7.57 liters at STP) of hydrogen gas per gallon of water. Equation for a hydrogen-oxygen relation is:

2H + O2 -> 2H20

The thermal energy yield of the above equation is 286 kJ/mole, or converted, less than 0.08 kW/h per mole. You're looking at an energy output of 0.025 kW/h for hydrogen electrolyzed out of one gallon of water. Remember that it took 13.7 kW/h to get back .025 kW/h. Not exactly something that could self power itself, which is why it hasn’t happened anywhere yet.

If you want a hydrogen powered car, the hydrogen has to be powered at a generation station. No it’s not a scheme by oil companies…a car cannot produce enough power to keep itself running on self produced hydrogen. The math proves it and common sense proves it. If water could be converted to hydrogen with greater than 100% efficiency, why would we run power lines and gas lines to houses? You could run a generator on hydrogen, the exhaust would be recirculated to be re-electrolyzed and the power from the generator would power the electrical items in the house. The heat from the generator could heat the house. Now why hasn’t this happened…because it’s not possible!

There are better ways to produce hydrogen other than electrolysis, ammonia being one of them.

http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html

Do some reading.

3SmeCaptain
05-15-2008, 12:04 AM
why does it seem you're out to get me? you're obviously not understanding me correctly. electrolysis for pure hydrogen is one thing compared to getting hydroxy. pure hydrogen... and hydroxy, two different things. if it wasn't possible, why are people doing it? why are there people running their vehicles off of this and why have they been doing it for years? if it wasn't possible, why have i been able to do it my self? though i didn't get it fully going BECAUSE i didn't have the necessary tools at hand, but i still did it. and if it'll make you feel any better, i already said i'd post videos of the system in the works. i wouldn't be screwing around with it if i didn't have some sort of assurance that it would have some sort of reasonably noticeable results. the way you are replying to this is if i had been talking about a perpetual motion system, it's not like that. there are loses of energy through friction and resistances which lead to heat generation and more energy lose. the system is enough to power the engine, not enough to make it last longer, go farther or be more efficient then using gas. full on cell system would more the likely give out a 15-20mpg efficiency from a vehicle that originally had gotten over 30mpg on gasoline, the difference is that it's using water. a Hydro-booster system only gives higher mpg based of gasoline usage because the ECU would be limited the amount of fuel it needs to make a certain power that it's programed to make. as the hydroxy is burned, it not only acts as an actual fuel, but it also helps burn more of the gasoline that's used and bring more energy out of the burn. using hydroxy on it's own will work just as fine aswell, but will more then likely result in less efficiency then stock but makes up for it's self because you're not having to hit the gas station all the time. instead, at home you'd have a small counter top water distillation unit OR a quality water filter, better to use both. the cleaner the water, the better the efficiency and the cleaner the cell stays for a longer period of time.

Conrad_Turbo
05-15-2008, 05:02 PM
why does it seem you're out to get me? you're obviously not understanding me correctly. electrolysis for pure hydrogen is one thing compared to getting hydroxy. pure hydrogen... and hydroxy, two different things.

I have not attacked you, I’m sorry if you think I have. I have asked questions (none were directly answered) and provided facts. This happens all day every day in the engineering field. Running current through water produces hydrogen and oxygen.

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2

What is different in this in terms of pure hydrogen as compared to Hydroxy? Hydroxy seems to be a marketing term for burning hydrogen alongside gasoline. I’m talking about splitting water molecules and burning the hydrogen for useful power, adding conventional fuel to the equation just muddies things. Using electrical energy to split the water molecules, now use the hydrogen as a fuel results in less power output than was originally required.


The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely with the numbers cited below on the optimistic side. Some report 50–70%[2], while the theoretical maximum efficiency of the electrolysis of water is between 80–94%.[3] These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficiency

Now you have an alternator that isn't 100% efficient, splitting water molecules with an energy efficiency of 50-94%. In the end it's like paying someone a dollar to give you 50-94 cents, eventually you will run out of money.


using hydroxy on it's own will work just as fine aswell, but will more then likely result in less efficiency then stock but makes up for it's self because you're not having to hit the gas station all the time. instead, at home you'd have a small counter top water distillation unit OR a quality water filter, better to use both. the cleaner the water, the better the efficiency and the cleaner the cell stays for a longer period of time.

I agree you can burn pure hydrogen; however you cannot expect to fill a tank with water and have a full self sufficient power source running off water. If you can, you’ve just invented the first perpetual motion machine.

I hope you can answer my questions and if you care to answer my previous unanswered questions:


The question I am asking is in regards for a full hydrogen running engine using 40 amps (552 W)of power to split the water molecules, what is the net continous useable power output of the engine? Any dyno numbers? How much (mass flow rate) "hydroxy" does this engine consume at idle? How about during other rpm points?

And how did you determine this rust problem? What is different about the “flash burn” of hydrogen as compared to gasoline, diesel, alcohol or methanol?

Also what is different about your setup as compared to this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

Baffles
05-15-2008, 05:36 PM
An important point nobody posted yet... hydrogen is not an energy source, rather a carrier of energy (like a battery). It takes more power to generate hydrogen than you get back from it when it burns.

That being said, I do think it sounds reasonable that injecting it in addition with gasoline into the engine could increase efficiency. I posted on this a while back and didn't receive too much in the way of answers.

Also, regarding the mythbusters reference, they didn't test any type of hydrogen injection or anything like is being discussed here. They simply tried to run a car off pure hydrogen.

3SmeCaptain
05-15-2008, 10:56 PM
I have not attacked you, I’m sorry if you think I have. I have asked questions (none were directly answered) and provided facts. This happens all day every day in the engineering field. Running current through water produces hydrogen and oxygen.

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2

What is different in this in terms of pure hydrogen as compared to Hydroxy? Hydroxy seems to be a marketing term for burning hydrogen alongside gasoline. I’m talking about splitting water molecules and burning the hydrogen for useful power, adding conventional fuel to the equation just muddies things. Using electrical energy to split the water molecules, now use the hydrogen as a fuel results in less power output than was originally required.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficiency

Now you have an alternator that isn't 100% efficient, splitting water molecules with an energy efficiency of 50-94%. In the end it's like paying someone a dollar to give you 50-94 cents, eventually you will run out of money.



I agree you can burn pure hydrogen; however you cannot expect to fill a tank with water and have a full self sufficient power source running off water. If you can, you’ve just invented the first perpetual motion machine.

I hope you can answer my questions and if you care to answer my previous unanswered questions:




Also what is different about your setup as compared to this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell


some of these questions i am not able to answer at this time specifically because i havn't been able to test it my self to find out. though i can say, everything i've read about those vehicles that are running fully off of the cell is that they actually noticed a slight difference in power compared to gas. hp wise i'm not sure i havn't seen any posted dynos, it's more towards their torque end from the sounds of it being most that i've read have said they now go up hills in gears that they use to bog and stall in. the only reason i could see this happening is by flooding out the engine until it stalled where as using the cell, it wouldn't do that. it would start acting like a diesel engine at that point because the fuel doesn't necessarily need much air intake to begin with and having a high amount of fuel at once would only cause even more power to generate and it's kinda hard to flood an engine with a vapor gas that will ignite with potent results regardless of the A/F ratio.

also, for your statement about spending a dollar for cents in return. i specifically had said, it's not a perpetual motion machine. it's just a different energy source. yes it is more an energy carrier in a sorts. it's not meant to put more energy out then what's given to create the fuel, if that were so then it WOULD be a perpetual motion machine, but it's not. instead, you can use what energy you CAN get out of it as en alternative to using a fuel source that is diminishing. as long as we as humans still have at least solar power, we have electricity. as long as we have electricity, we can supply the power needed to create the fuel to point needed to power a transporting vehicle. the vapor burned because a water vapor and goes right back to the environment just as clean as it went in. at the most, it may have minerals like aluminum, iron and steel from engine wear carried with it which would only be returned to the earth just as it was mined away from it to begin with.

as for the flash burn problem and needing to readjust timing. hydroxy, just like hydrogen, burns MUCH faster then gasoline. the energy seen off of certain amount of volume of hydroxy is very much comparable to that of the same volume of injected gas in a similar setup. the difference is, gas burns longer but cooler aswell where as hydroxy burns much quicker but much hotter aswell. without readjusting the timming, you'll only be able to harness only a fraction of the hydroxy power because most of it is just filling space. readjust the timing so that the fuel is ignited just as the piston comes down from dead top of the stroke rather then waiting a little more to ignite with gas. when the timing isn't done right, the flashing burn of the hydroxy will be too much for the excessive lubricating oil around the cylinder walls which ends up being burned off. because of this, the engine i did use to test an idle run, the oil was burned off every time it ignited. i ended up going away for a couple weeks, i came back and went to try starting the test engine again and it wouldn't crank over. i checked everything before thinking that something might have happened inside with the internals. i pulled the head and found the cylinder walls rusted a bit, enough to keep it from cranking over. so because it was just a junk engine, i wire brushed the rust off enough for it crank again. i got it running for a bit then turned it off and waited 2 weeks before trying to start it again just to make sure. came back to try it again, wouldn't crank over, pulled the head again, rusty walls again. i later found that all i needed to do was readjust the timing to the point that the ignition point would be much sooner, almost near top of the stroke and it wouldn't have rusted out.

3SmeCaptain
05-15-2008, 11:11 PM
Oh! the difference between my design *which is a common design, not really claimable by anyone* and Stanly's is that stan's design is based off of harmonics, using a pulsing ciruit similar to a PWM, but still different in a way that pulsed at over 40,000hz while at the same time using extremely low amounts of electrolysis. his design does use a tubular design like mine, but his is much more difficult and revolves all around frequency to generate and ignite the hydroxy gas. it wasn't until later years that people experimenting with this unit found that using just a primitive PWM motor control unit actualy produced higher production and was a much more logical way of doing things. after that, pure water *distilled* was said not to be able to work, yet it does and with great results. electrolytes added helps even more and others "like my self" have found that taking advantage of any kind or thermo electrolysis results in production similar to adding electrolytes only without having to use them. Stan's design also revolved around using higher voltage with lower amperage, this is why his design didn't work as well as it was said to have. he ended up ionizing the water and causing it to muck up much faster. PWM based cells use lower voltage with higher amperage, causing a higher current load that better pulls the molecules apart without quickly ionizing the water keeping the cell's run time much longer. using distilled water for example will still become ionize over a longer period of time, a clear gel like substance will appear and eventually, you'd have to clean the internals of the cell. the gel is water, but with left over minerals and deposits that are now ionized and magnetized. this causes a gel looking substance when microscopically the minerals are holding some water in while being magnetized. this gel sediment was explained to me just as i'm explaining it to you now so it doesn't really get much more clear then that. it was explained to me by another cell user.

Conrad_Turbo
05-16-2008, 07:14 PM
some of these questions i am not able to answer at this time specifically because i havn't been able to test it my self to find out. though i can say, everything i've read about those vehicles that are running fully off of the cell is that they actually noticed a slight difference in power compared to gas.

It is very different reading something on the internet as compared to doing it in real life.


hp wise i'm not sure i havn't seen any posted dynos, it's more towards their torque end from the sounds of it.

A dyno can measure torque, the torque output multiplied by the rpm of the engine will give resulting hp, the amount of work an engine can do over time.


it would start acting like a diesel engine at that point because the fuel doesn't necessarily need much air intake to begin with and having a high amount of fuel at once would only cause even more power to generate.

A diesel engine operates with a higher compression ratio which allows the air/fuel to detonate via the glow plug and increasing cylinder pressure. So you’re saying an engine “flooded” with hydrogen (130 octane) detonates before the spark plug fires on a conventional engine? Normally a flooded engine has a hard time detonating due to the excess fuel and not enough of an oxidizer.


also, for your statement about spending a dollar for cents in return. i specifically had said, it's not a perpetual motion machine. it's just a different energy source. yes it is more an energy carrier in a sorts. it's not meant to put more energy out then what's given to create the fuel, if that were so then it WOULD be a perpetual motion machine

Okay so you cannot fill up a tank of water and start an electrolysis process and have an engine run continuously and self sufficient. So a pure hydrogen running car would have to stop at a “pump” to fill up with hydrogen, since the car is not self sufficient. Check. Is it still an oil conspiracy that a car has to fill up at a “pump” for hydrogen?


you can use what energy you CAN get out of it as en alternative to using a fuel source that is diminishing. as long as we as humans still have at least solar power, we have electricity. as long as we have electricity, we can supply the power needed to create the fuel to point needed to power a transporting vehicle.

Yes but with terrible efficiency. Why wouldn’t you use the electricity to power an electric motor? Converting energy forms always results in a loss, due to efficiency never being able to be greater than 100%. I would rather have a solar panel power an electric motor, than convert water to hydrogen, then to be burned.


the vapor burned because a water vapor and goes right back to the environment just as clean as it went in.

True, however you have to consider where the electricity is coming from as well. Not all electricity is clean electricity. If electricity was clean we’d leave our lights on all day and night, but that isn’t the case.


Oh! the difference between my design *which is a common design, not really claimable by anyone* and Stanly's is that stan's design is based off of harmonics, using a pulsing ciruit similar to a PWM, but still different in a way that pulsed at over 40,000hz while at the same time using extremely low amounts of electrolysis.

PWM = pulse width modulation = cycles/time measurement = Hz. It’s a shame that Meyer’s was a fraud.

I think your intent is good however you have to look at the grand scheme of things. Energy is like an investment, you want to minimize your losses and maximize your gains. If you have to change a currency from multiple currencies to get what you want, you are bound to lose some of that money along the way.

I am all for hydrogen powered cars, however I can guarantee if there are hydrogen pumps in the future…the hydrogen will be produced from energy from nuclear reactors. Pumps are not a conspiracy, it is a necessity since cars that run off pure hydrogen are not self sufficient, just like gasoline powered cars. Likewise with electric cars, they will be consuming such a large amount of energy that the energy resource will be coming from nuclear reactors as well. Energy has to come from somewhere as much as we want to create it from thin air.

The future will either be efficient generation of hydrogen gas, or innovative lightweight batteries. Kind of the Beta vs VHS, or Blueray vs HD-DVD.

Looking good...
http://www.zenncars.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

MrWOT
05-16-2008, 09:15 PM
I actually had a fellow show up at autozone the other day who is running a hybrid setup in his metro. He uses a 240 AMP alt in place of the A/C compressor and it pulls about 70 amps at idle. Sadly for him, he was there because some of the "distilled" water he bought from safeway... wasn't... :ugh: Yeah, it was ugly...

3SmeCaptain
05-16-2008, 10:10 PM
*sigh*... no, when talking about acting like a diesel engine. i meant that it has insane torque at near bogging rpms.

and i know what PWM is and what it does. Stan's system was different, he didn't necessarily use PWM while at the same time, did. it's hard to explain really, i never really understood the circuit he used that apparently did so well. noone has been able to make a working replica of it and most other just went and got a traditional PWM used for electric motor speed control seeing as it results in massive production over a few bubbles here and there.

"Okay so you cannot fill up a tank of water and start an electrolysis process and have an engine run continuously and self sufficient."

the way you put it, again you said as a perpetual motion. no it is NOT perpetual motion, but you can fill up a holding tank and feed the cell as it demands.

"I actually had a fellow show up at autozone the other day who is running a hybrid setup in his metro. He uses a 240 AMP alt in place of the A/C compressor and it pulls about 70 amps at idle. Sadly for him, he was there because some of the "distilled" water he bought from safeway... wasn't... Yeah, it was ugly..."

i doubt he was pulling 70 amp, thats ALOT of juice to be putting into the cell continuously unless he had a rather crudely designed cell running and probably no PWM. and the distilled water from safeway isn't really distilled, it's filtered and has a lable put on it. water that's really distilled would stay clean for good amount of time and wouldn't look like someone took a dump in it like poorly filtered water would after about 15 minutes of use.

i think from now on i'm just not going to post anything about this anymore here. i can't really seem to get the picture through, especially if you really haven't taken the time to do it your self. only reading what people have done and what septics have to say is only going to put you into a mind set that it's not possible without you even trying it in the first place. so what i'm going to do is just leave it at this point, let you say what you will, what you believe is what you believe, you and everyone out there has that right and it's respected. so when i've got my cell up and running, i'll post video right here on this thread. first it'll be the cell it's self. then it'll be the cell in a hydro-booster application and then it'll be the cell on an attempt to go full hydroxy. on the full hydroxy setup, i will not only post video of it working if it does, but i will also post videos of the steps i took to get it going. i seriously... don't know what other proof i could give to you over that...

Conrad_Turbo
05-16-2008, 10:56 PM
*sigh*... no, when talking about acting like a diesel engine. i meant that it has insane torque at near bogging rpms.

When discussing something of a technical nature you cannot leave something to vague interpretation, that’s what you did. I’m sure this thread would be a lot shorter if things were direct and clear.


and i know what PWM is and what it does. Stan's system was different, he didn't necessarily use PWM while at the same time, did. it's hard to explain really, i never really understood the circuit he used that apparently did so well. noone has been able to make a working replica of it and most other just went and got a traditional PWM used for electric motor speed control seeing as it results in massive production over a few bubbles here and there.

If you can’t explain it, how do you know what it is? Stan was charged of “gross and egregious fraud”. “in spite of the fact complete plans remain available online. To date, no one has used them to produce a working prototype.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

I wouldn’t take what he has done as concrete information.


the way you put it, again you said as a perpetual motion. no it is NOT perpetual motion, but you can fill up a holding tank and feed the cell as it demands.

Holding tank? As in water? Or electricity power? If it is water then you've developed the first perpetual motion device.


i think from now on i'm just not going to post anything about this anymore here. i can't really seem to get the picture through, especially if you really haven't taken the time to do it your self. only reading what people have done and what septics have to say is only going to put you into a mind set that it's not possible without you even trying it in the first place. so what i'm going to do is just leave it at this point, let you say what you will, what you believe is what you believe, you and everyone out there has that right and it's respected. so when i've got my cell up and running, i'll post video right here on this thread. first it'll be the cell it's self. then it'll be the cell in a hydro-booster application and then it'll be the cell on an attempt to go full hydroxy. on the full hydroxy setup, i will not only post video of it working if it does, but i will also post videos of the steps i took to get it going. i seriously... don't know what other proof i could give to you over that...

If this is your last post in this thread until you post up a video…please do this: if you are going to run a car off pure hydrogen, either show it capable of being self sufficient with only water being added to keep the engine running. Or if you are burning hydrogen along with gasoline, get results that show a proven gain in MPG. There very well could be an increase in MPG by adding hydrogen to the air/fuel mixture. However this discussion to this point has been about powering a car off water, not any other fuel (to reduce muddying the water as previously stated).

I am not posting what I believe, I am posting facts. A lot of people could build a unit to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, trap the hydrogen and burn it in an engine. It’s one thing to do that as compared to having the facilities to support this in mass transit, and if it is the most efficient way to do so.

MrWOT
05-16-2008, 10:58 PM
I see an application for it, just not as a "primary" fuel, but I see it as allowing for an ultra lean burn. I bet you could run some ridiculously lean mixtures with flow coupling and a hydroxy generator

4thgenceli
05-19-2008, 03:36 PM
This has been something I've been reading/following for a bit now. Maybe someone here can answer the questions I've been trying to find answers for...


Rust deposits - any issue with rust deposits forming after a period of time? I'm sure with a full water injection (IE hydrogen fuel only) this is a concern, as it's all water being pushed into the block. But since it's just being used as an additive, I don't think it would lessen the oiling of the cylinder walls.

Performance on a 4 cylinder/FI engine - I've seen all the tests and crap, but they've been done on 6-8 cylinders, NA only. Any more results (besides the ones here) on a FI and/or NA 4banger?

spaztheweird1
05-19-2008, 04:06 PM
i have been watching it also and and seen many designs and plus's and flaws but wanted to know what all you place in these units i know distilled water but what is this electrolyte they keep saying no one explains it ??

ciento44
05-19-2008, 05:30 PM
I've been watching this, and now i feel dumb.

VikingJZ
05-20-2008, 03:46 AM
I talked to a guy down the road that said he did this to his 92 Civic sedan. Retired guy, and I just randomly started talking cars with him. He said he was getting rediculous mileage with it and it was easy to do. He totalled the car though...lol. He's trying to find some pictures.

He now has a new Civic Hybrid.

3SmeCaptain
05-20-2008, 06:55 AM
ok, i'll come back just to answer a few questions.

Electrolytes are used to increase the conductivity of what ever the electrolyte is going into, in this case, water. this increases the water break down into hydroxy gas process considerably. electrolytes for electrolysis are common but somewhat dangerous chemicals. one is Chlorine or AKA Bleach, this works GREAT! but it also causes a VERY deadly toxin to mix with the hydroxy, the toxin being Chloride. one good whiff can kill you instantly. Sulfuric Acid is a good one too, but you can burn your self with that and there is a problem with corrosion resistance because of the PH level of the acid. Potassium Hydroxide is another good one, a base acid and Sodium Hydroxide. there is also Sodium and Lithium which turn into crud salts basically. using electrolytes also causes high amount of oxidation so high corrosion materials are needed. when you are capable of making a cell design efficient enough NOT to use electrolytes, it's like running an engine on a safer richer burn rather running it too lean. you keep a higher working life span and keep the cell internally clean.

As for rust, there really isn't much of a problem. Gasoline actually has a higher content of water then whats seen out of using hydroxy. your Cat. not only promotes high temps to burn off the toxins that gas produces, but it also helps collect any left over water vapor left in your exhaust while the engine is turned off and cooling down. thats why when you start your car in the morning you have vapors coming out, it's the left over water in the Cat. that's being heated rapidly and is going out as a vapor through the exhaust. using Hydroxy actually makes your car have this same start effect only the vapor is going to be present all the time. the only areas that should be seeing hydroxy is through the intake, inside the combustion area and out the exhaust. all of these parts are already made with materials that already have the corrosion resistance needed to withstand using the hydroxy. what i had mentioned above was only because i didn't have the ability to re-adjust the timing which is the only percussion you need to make before using it fully. as a fuel mixture you don't need to do anything at all in preparation.

as for using a 4 cylinder engine, the setups that i've seen have actually been on 4cylinder and straight 6 engines. i've heard of people doing it on bigger V6's and V8's but have never seen it, regardless it would work just the same. all that i've ACTUALLY seen has only been NA engines. i'm sure it'll be fine to use a fuel mixture with a turbo engine to increase economy with those who have mods and notice their fuel economy is going down the shitter. but going fuel use i don't think has been tested at least thats been openly shared to the public. i do remember seeing some guy who had done this setup to his crotch-rocket bike and noticed at the end of his documentary that he was putting together a turbo engine and had every intension of doing the same thing to it and had said it should work fine. the only thing on top of re-adjusting the timing for a turbo engine is that the exhaust housing needs to be ceramic coated or else it may be possible that the IRON housing will rust... not during use because of the heat keeping the water in a vapor form but while the car is turned off and ambient vapor is still present and because there isn't any oils like there is in a mixture fuel, it'll more then likely rust without a ceramic coating.



I've been watching this, and now i feel dumb.

HAH! please don't. to be honest with you, i hardly know half the science behind it all. other then the basics, what i know is from what i've experienced and what i've researched. when i first got into it, i had people left and right telling me this and that saying it's not possible. the problem is... when you see it for your self actually work right in front of you, your prospective of things COMPLETELY changes. i'm one not to believe a damn thing unless you can prove it to me. well, it was proven to me and now i'm pretty much hooked... my 3S build is actually being dedicated to being used as a built performance turbo engine using the cell to power it or at least be a mixture fueled engine. my goal is to produce the equivalent of 4,000cc/min of gas being used and i've actually watched weaker cell designs compared to mine make this goal and surpass it and with a fraction of the power that i'm capable of supplying and i'm taking advantage of using some thermal electrolysis based methods to increase production efficiency of the cell so i should be able to hit that goal at even lower power consumption levels once the cell is up to temp. after the engine has warmed up a bit. it's kinda like water cooling in a computer, only instead of drawing the heat away, i'm drawing the heat in to expand the water molecules so that they are easier to break down. production efficiency can be increased by several hundred percent over the normal at a given ambient temp.. so in short, i've really only taken the aspects of the auto world and used basic logic and basic physics to create my own cell which was pretty easy.

i believe thats pretty detailed and straight to the point in a basic explanation.

Carolina91GT-S
05-22-2008, 03:38 PM
I like the idea of using this as an alternate fuel source

I like the Idea of someone with experience discussing it here(3Sme), good work keep up the discussion and experimentation.

I like the idea of someone else knowledgeable (Conrad) asking pointed questions to separate hype from results. keep it up, complete discussions are the best kind.

I don't like the idea that you chase the guy off by repeatedly saying that he is claiming perpetual motion when he doesn't claim that and has stated it multiple times. Get off his back about this. He has an uphill battle trying to do something that is difficult. He doesn't need you telling other people that he is claiming to have done something that he hasn't, and that isn't possible.


Holding tank? As in water? Or electricity power? If it is water then you've developed the first perpetual motion device.

Using a water holding tank is not perpetual motion if you continue to add water to the tank. Otherwise your gas engine using a gas tank would be a perpetual motion machine also.

I read his posts as he is using the cell with water to create a fuel for combustion or to mix with gas for combustion. He has to add water to the cell as the water is consumed. Fuel cells do work, that much is not conjecture or hocus pocus. Maybe he can make it work to run his car, maybe he can't. The only real question at the moment is how efficient is the process? maybe he gets 1 mile to the gallon and maybe it takes him an hour to make enough hydrogen/hydroxy to go a mile. In the end even if he gets half of the fuel efficiency as gasoline then it's a good thing because water is cheaper and easier to get than gas.

This is not an attack on Conrad. I like reading his posts and learning valuable information from hem, he is a smart guy. That doesn't mean though that I have to agree with everything the guy says or does. This is not full support of 3S me either, give us more details, we're interested in what you are doing but need to know more.

CelicaHero
05-29-2008, 07:05 AM
this all sounds too good to be true but if it is my question is will i loose hp or gain it or will it stay the same. i honestly dont have a damn clue. and if i buy performance parts like cams or a stoker kit will they have the same affect as if i were running the car on just gas.

Conrad_Turbo
05-30-2008, 03:42 AM
I like the idea of using this as an alternate fuel source

I like the Idea of someone with experience discussing it here(3Sme), good work keep up the discussion and experimentation.

I like the idea of someone else knowledgeable (Conrad) asking pointed questions to separate hype from results. keep it up, complete discussions are the best kind.

I don't like the idea that you chase the guy off by repeatedly saying that he is claiming perpetual motion when he doesn't claim that and has stated it multiple times. Get off his back about this. He has an uphill battle trying to do something that is difficult. He doesn't need you telling other people that he is claiming to have done something that he hasn't, and that isn't possible.



Using a water holding tank is not perpetual motion if you continue to add water to the tank. Otherwise your gas engine using a gas tank would be a perpetual motion machine also.

I read his posts as he is using the cell with water to create a fuel for combustion or to mix with gas for combustion. He has to add water to the cell as the water is consumed. Fuel cells do work, that much is not conjecture or hocus pocus. Maybe he can make it work to run his car, maybe he can't. The only real question at the moment is how efficient is the process? maybe he gets 1 mile to the gallon and maybe it takes him an hour to make enough hydrogen/hydroxy to go a mile. In the end even if he gets half of the fuel efficiency as gasoline then it's a good thing because water is cheaper and easier to get than gas.

This is not an attack on Conrad. I like reading his posts and learning valuable information from hem, he is a smart guy. That doesn't mean though that I have to agree with everything the guy says or does. This is not full support of 3S me either, give us more details, we're interested in what you are doing but need to know more.

No worries, I was referring to a vechicle that runs on pure hydrogen. If the vehicle had the tank filled up with only water to drive around, then by definition it's a pepetual motion machine. If it's a gasoline/diesel engine with a hydrogen additive then it's a total different story, but I didn't want to bring conventional fuel into the equation due to it easily muddying the water. :)