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Punisher
02-22-2005, 04:49 AM
I'm doing a JDM 2nd gen 3SGTE swap into my '90 5spd celica gts.. I figure this will be an easy swap.. rip 5sfe out.. take out engine harness.. take out ECU.. take out fuel pump.. put 3sgte harness in.. ecu.. fuel pump and motor.. also putting in an LSD MR2 tranny.. so pretty easy.. I don't forsee any custom fab or any custom wiring because it should all be the same.. that is dash harness to engine harness connections.. shouldn't be any real difference like there was when I put a 7AFE from a 95 corolla into my '89 SR5 (originally carb'd) corolla coupe.. that was a REAL bitch of a job with wiring.

Anywho.. I was considering scrapping the MR2 tranny and going for an All-Trac.. but I've been told that it's next to impossible.. that a lot of custom fab and frame work needs to be done.. is this true? Anyone have some hands on expirence or know of any write-up's online?

Blakemc
02-22-2005, 05:41 AM
Well if your going to scrap the LSD mr2 tranny and go for a alltrac one let me know because i have what you need and you have what i need. Im on the "92 celica coupe swap help" thread right now talking about some issues. I need an mr2 tranny with LSD. My clip i bought came with a carlos sainz tranny and rear end differential. Great tranny from what i hear. One guy has already got dibs on the rear diff. but no dibs on the tranny. I would be willing to swap if you would. Post on my thread or email me at blakemc@gmail.com

Conrad_Turbo
02-22-2005, 01:29 PM
Compare the underside of your car to this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/mixman1982/stitchcelica.jpg

I'm sure you've got a lot of fab work ahead.

Punisher
02-23-2005, 02:18 AM
I don't HAVE an MR2 tranny yet.. I ment, scrap the idea.. Most 3SGTE imports I saw come with the all-trac tranny mated already.

CelicaGT4
02-23-2005, 02:54 AM
expect to spend around $1000 for an 93+ Mr2 LSD tranny, then plan for about $400 for the LSD mated axles as the non lsd axle splines are to small and different spline count if I recall. Also, you'll need to fab the shift linkage on the mr2 tranny to the right side of the tranny since the motors in the rear of the 2's. Also, if you want AWD....get an alltrac. The bottom line is it's not safe and not worth the effort or the benjamins.

Jigglypuff
02-23-2005, 03:38 AM
Also, if you want AWD....get an alltrac. The bottom line is it's not safe and not worth the effort or the benjamins. :blahblah:

One of these days, I'd actually like to see an AWD conversion on a 5th gen. One can argue that Adrian's V6 swap is not economical, nor is the V8 GT4 that someone created. But you know what? I'm sure the builder had loads of fun building it, and they have a one-of-a-kind to display their hard work. Sorry to get off on a rant here, but I'm really disliking the quasi-negative attitude around here. Anytime someone tries to do something unique, they get shot down by naysayers. You can't exactly make advancements if you don't try new things.

CelicaGT4
02-23-2005, 03:53 AM
Try new things huh? As far as I know there have been multiple people that have tried the AWD conversion and FAILED saying it was not safe. Why the fuck would you want to do all that work when you can buy a car thats chassis is made for an AWD setup, and is also cheaper and safer in the longrun. The FACT is my friend that I've seen this question asked a hundred times by NOOBS that have no clue what the hell they are talking about. I'm just here to bring their dreams to reality....if it's safe and funtions properly then I would agree 100% with what their plans are for upgrading their car. In this case, I'm pretty damn sure that NOT one experienced toyota technision would agree with the AWD conversion.

Jigglypuff
02-23-2005, 05:29 AM
Try new things huh? As far as I know there have been multiple people that have tried the AWD conversion and FAILED saying it was not safe.So? There's always multiple approaches to a problem.


Why the fuck would you want to do all that work when you can buy a car thats chassis is made for an AWD setup, and is also cheaper and safer in the longrun. Why put a V6 in a Celica or MR2? Why put a V8 in a GT4 and turn it into a RWD vehicle?


The FACT is my friend that I've seen this question asked a hundred times by NOOBS that have no clue what the hell they are talking about. That's pretty obvious. Let an engineer get creative, and see what he/she can come up with.


I'm just here to bring their dreams to reality....if it's safe and funtions properly then I would agree 100% with what their plans are for upgrading their car. In this case, I'm pretty damn sure that NOT one experienced toyota technision would agree with the AWD conversion.Who says it can't be done right?

CelicaGT4
02-23-2005, 05:34 AM
I'm sure it can be done right with the right person behind the build and with fat wallet, but why not just buy an Alltrac? Answer that!

Punisher
02-23-2005, 08:54 AM
Have you ever tried looking for an all-trac in the states.. specifically a 5th gen.. one that is in good condition... and doesn't cost 7G or more? Exactly.. not to mention the 3SGTE's in them suck and I'd prefer to just get a JDM 3sgte and swap it in myself.. I've looked at those pictures and it doesn't seem to be very much involved with the swap.. everything bolts to the frame.. no structural difference between the two from what I could tell.. Strength wise I'm sure it may be different.. but I'm doubting it's much.. definitly not more than I could fix by making a few custom braces and one that links front/rear.. with the proper measurements and a detailed thought out design it would be easily completed.

Punisher
02-23-2005, 09:32 AM
Also, whatever differences between the 2 cars in frame/body support I will make up for by making custom steel braces.

Jigglypuff
02-23-2005, 01:05 PM
I'm sure it can be done right with the right person behind the build and with fat wallet, but why not just buy an Alltrac? Answer that!The build is always better than the drive (or at least I think so). Besides, hatchbacks suck. Go coupes!

Punisher
02-23-2005, 07:50 PM
ahh! i love my hatchback

Punisher
02-23-2005, 08:01 PM
So you guys think I should just stick with getting an LSD MR2 tranny?

Would've just been really sweet to have AWD since I plan to in the future, really build this 3sgte up and I wanna be running well over 300HP... just seems like a lot for a FWD car... No matter how I look at it I am going to build chassis braces to go from rear to front to keep everything really tight... not to mention a brace under the rear trunk space that will connect to another brace inside the trunk floor and then a rear strut tower bar..

I guess if I end up not liking the celica after I do the swap.. if I find that traction just isn't there I could just sell it.. I'll have the 3sgte in it.. and all kinds of shit so I should be able to sell it for a pretty damn decent amount. But I'm sure with the MR2 LSD tranny it should be pretty good.

They never made an LSD tranny for the FWD celica's right? As far as I know the MR2 LSD tranny is the only other tranny that is really strong and has the LSD feature, that will work in my celica.

Mike431635
02-23-2005, 08:38 PM
I think you should go for the AWD. It was done in a 6th gen in Florida. With time, money, and fabrication skills, you can do it. But yes the MR2 turbo tranny was the only one with LSD available to us.

Punisher
02-23-2005, 09:37 PM
well, I'd really love to do the AWD swap but I would need a complete list of parts that need to be changed.. strengthening the chassis isn't an issue.. it is something I am GOING to do when I put the 3sgte in regardless if I use the MR2 tranny or do the AWD swap.. I looked at that underbody shot of an AWD celica and it looks like everything bolts up to existing support members.. nothing looks different in the front either.. the same cross members are there as are on mine.

It will definitly be easier for me since I have the GTS and there are basicaly no further suspension/steering differences between the AWD and the GTS from what I can tell.. atleast in the front.

I figure with the total list of parts that need to be taken out/put into my celica to convert it and a good detailed plan of everything that needs to be done I can lay it all out and have the swap done in 2 days.. by planning everything that I need to do and taking measurements and building all of my extra support pieces first I won't be delayed by that stuff.

However, I need to find out the weight of my vehicle now and what the weight will be after I'm done. I will be adding probably a 100lbs worth of steel to the body for added support/rigidity and strength.. not to mention all of the extra AWD stuff.. so it may not really work out to be the best option. However, living in eastern PA.. the winters here can be unpredictable and atleast with an AWD setup driving in the snow with 300+ HP (after my modifications and tuning to the 3SGTE, which I'm hoping to get a 3rd gen to begin with) won't be quite as difficult. I won't settle for less than an LSD MR2 tranny either.. so even with out AWD, the LSD should make a pretty big difference in bad weather driving. If I go with the MR2 tranny I will stick some stiffer springs in the rear so that when I launch I won't get to much lift in the front.

If I'm going to be adding 200-300lb's with all of this AWD stuff compared to just say 100lb's with putting the MR2 tranny in and my new supports.. then I'll definitly stay away from the AWD setup.

That plus I don't even know much about the AWD setup.. if I do get it I would want the upgraded LSD rear.. that will probably be a rare find.. From what I understand the AWD setup on the celica with the open diff's is just 1 wheel in the front and 1 wheel in the rear that turns.. not a true all wheel powered system or even an intelligent awd system.. so it really may not be that much of a benefit. If someone can shed some light on all my questions I'd really appreciate it.

I'd also love to find a site that goes over the 3SGTE from the 1st gen to the latest generation and details the differences in the motors that make the newer generations more powerful so I know exactly what I'm getting into and if it's possible just to get the easier to obtain 2nd gen and just do a few simple upgrades on it to obtain 3rd gen power.. I'm not positive the actual differences between them.

ChrisD
02-23-2005, 09:48 PM
Jigglypuff: The problem is that there have been tonnes of noobs that constantly come and ask the question, and are rarely financially equipped to take on the challenge, nor are they engineers that would have a clue of what they are doing.


Have you ever tried looking for an all-trac in the states.. specifically a 5th gen.. one that is in good condition... and doesn't cost 7G or more?

Yes, many times. I also own an alltrac. $7k? No way. You can find them in the states from 4000 if you look in the right places. If you get a 165, even cheaper. Sell your car, and count the difference. Can you do the 4WD swap for less?


Exactly.. not to mention the 3SGTE's in them suck

They are the SAME engines. The only thing that differs is the ECU. Once you start modding, the difference becomes less and less important. If you really want, buy a JDM ECU for $100 and call it a day.


I'd prefer to just get a JDM 3sgte and swap it in myself..

Well thats a respectable decision, and it's yours to make. Many people here have done it. :)

I'm going to lay it down right now.

Can I swap a 4WD system from a GT-Four / All-trac into my _____ Celica?

Yes. It has been done. It is likely going to require a lot of money and/or knowledge to build a 4WD system that is stable on the road, especially under any sort of load/stress.

What is easier, buying an alltrac or transplanting a 4WD system into my Celica?

Buying an alltrac will be easier and in most cases cost less money.

Does everything bolt up? It looks like it will.

No. Not even close.

Will my fuel tank be in the way? If I compare the Alltrac and my ST/GT/GTS, the GTS tank sits much lower. Is this a problem?

Yes it will be in the way, and will be a problem. You would need to run a fuel cell in your trunk/back of hatch, that is sealed and has proper braided hose. If you don't care about cargo space, then its not a problem. Good fuel cells are expensive though. Check out summit racing to get an idea on pricing.

Has anyone done this before? Did it work?

Yes, two people to my knowledge. Jeremy Hartz, the owner of 4gcelica.net did in a 4th gen. Extra reinforcement was used, however he was unable to make the car stable enough to hold the extra gear, weight, and strain caused by the 4WD tranny.

The 2nd, a guy in Florida in a 6th gen. The only information I have heard is that it was chopped together pretty crappily, and wasn't that great of a conversion. This is heresay, but its all I've got. Later the owner attempted to sell it on Ebay.

Isn't my car the same as an Alltrac minus those parts?

No. The GT-Four / Alltrac was specifically engineered and designed for the purpose of racing in the WRC. By WRC regulations, Toyota had to sell a certain number of these models in order to compete.

Will the GT-Four suspension fit?

No, you'd have to custom fit that if you wanted it.

Is there a path for the driveshaft?

I am unsure on a model by model basis, but I believe there is on some models, and is not on others. Check out your car and let us know. Keep in mind that cutting a space for a driveshaft will seriously comprimise the structural integrity of the car. Also, the 4WD parts could easily weigh 500 lbs, it's not light stuff! Extra weight = extra stress. And you want to boost up the horsepower? Just keep that in mind when you fabricate your support systems.

I don't care what you say I'm doing it and I'll prove you wrong

I never said it couldn't be done. Go for it, give it a shot. Just know that we get these claims a lot on message boards, so there's a very low % of people that actually go through with it. If you do complete it, let us know how it goes! I'm sure we'd be interested to see how much it cost you, how much work was involved, and what problems you encountered along the way. Best of luck to you. :)

Is there a how-to I can follow?

LOL, no. If you succeed, write it up for us.

So thats about all I have to say about that.

Punisher
02-23-2005, 11:16 PM
I totally agree that it wouldn't be an easy project, but a lot of people jump into things with out properly planning them out and finding out every little detail.. it all falls into mechanical engineering.. if you can't plan things out.. and properly design what needs to be fabricated then you are fucked. I was just curious on what had to be changed and when I saw that underbody pic of the alltrac celi I immediately noticed that the gas tank was different along with a few other things in the rear.. if I was going to do this swap I would get EVERYTHING from an all-trac.. gas tank.. to fuel lines.. everything.. I wouldn't try to custom fab a fuel cell or anything because it's just a waste when I can get factory made everything.

Another issue is the weight.. 500lbs extra, which I'm sure is a little more than what it actually all weighs but it is still a good number to go on so you build some over-head into the whole support system.. 500lb's is a lot of weight and if I run a 3sgte with 300hp in my celi with an MR2 tranny I'll probably be adding maybe 200lbs.. I don't know what the MR2 tranny weighs compared to my 5sfe tranny.. they are probably fairly close.. I'd imagine the MR2 tranny uses beefier parts.. so I'd guestimate that it weighs a 100lb's more.. add in the turbo parts.. all the extra sensors and wiring.. talking about 200lbs more than what my celi weighs now.. compared to 500lb's.

If it's true that the all-trac system isn't an intelligent power transfering system or if I was to use the open differentials then I wouldn't have a true AWD vehicle.. and I'm betting it would be very hard and expensive to get my hands on a rear LSD for the celi.. so all and all it would be very expensive and I don't want an "AWD" car if it isn't going to be a TRUE AWD setup, not worth the extra weight.

Some day down the road.. long long time down the road I may get another celi just to try my hand at doing the AWD swap.. maybe if I ever get into off-road racing it would be a pretty fun conversion.

I tried looking for all-tracs and I didn't find any 5th gen or better all-tracs... I found one in arizona.. mint condition.. on ebay.. to bad it was 7,500.. I paid 2K for my celica in excellent condition with 7th gen rims and near new dunlop fm901's.. so I got an outstanding deal.

I'll probably just plan on using an MR2 LSD tranny.. and work on building a part list and detailing things that need to be converted to work in the celica.. I want to do the job in a weekend.

Swapping the motor and tranny in will be piss easy.. rip out engine and tranny.. rip out harness and ecu.. put JDM ecu in.. JDM motor and MR2 tranny with the proper axles and get to work on the exhaust system.. which I plan to re-do completely with the swap anyway.. then I will end up putting stiffer springs on the rear so that when I launch the front of the car doesn't go sky-ward and make me spin tires.

I've done a really hard motor swap before.. when I put a 7AFE from a 95 rolla in my '89 sr5 rolla coupe.. the motor was a 4af.. carb'd.. and so the wiring was all different.. no EFI wiring in the car to start with so I had to wire everything in.. so I got a lot of wiring expirence with that.. and hopefully the JDM engine harness will plug right into my dash harness.. or atleast have the same wires in the same positions so I can just chop connectors and swap them so it all goes together easy.. I had to do so much custom wiring between the engine harness and dash harness in my corolla it wasn't funny.

I plan on getting the all-trac hood scoop and putting it on my hood.. I plan on getting rid of the top mount intercooler right away and going with an FMIC probably with a fan on it.. I liked that cryo system I saw in the supercooler thread so I will build a system of my own.. basically mimicing their setup..

I've got everything planned out and I'm not going to do it till I have all the cash estimated to do this swap saved up, because I want to have everything on hand.. rebuild the motor and clean it up.. paint shit on it like the valve cover and the block and stuff..

Btw, how is the header on the jdm 3sgte? Is it a good setup for the turbo?

I don't know what other custom stuff I may do but I'll definitly need all the parts on-hand to make sure everything goes together.. to rebuild shit.. etc etc..

ChrisD
02-24-2005, 03:36 AM
Punisher,

Great post. Going through things like that seperates you from the typical guys that come and say "yo wuz up i gots a 3sgte yo imma gon drop that 4wd shiz in my celi an have AWD. is it hard?". LOL.

You'd be surprised at the weight of all those parts. It was a total guess on my part, but there are some heavy items! The transfer case on the tranny, the driveshaft is bitch assed heavy, the rear diff, adds a lot.

You can't exactly put the alltrac fuel tank in, because the floor pan sits much higher on the alltrac to accomodate the space needed for the 4wd system.

Header = exhaust manifold on a turbo car, and it is typically good for 400-500hp...really no need to upgrade it.

You'll have no problem with a straight 3sgte swap, will definitely be a walk in the park for you compared ot the corolla swap.

CelicaGT4
02-24-2005, 08:29 AM
Punisher, if you need any assistance on the swap.....I also did my swap myself and could give you any advice you might need. Just let me know. Sounds like you have a head on your shoulders and are very capable of building a badass car. have fun and don't forget to wear your safety goggles, lol.

Punisher
02-24-2005, 04:35 PM
lol thanks..

Can I use a USDM engine harness on the JDM motor? Like.. I'd imagine so.. as long as they are the same generation harness... right?

If I go with a JDM motor I would probably want the JDM ECU as well... right? The Jspec 3sgte's are MAP sensored from what I understand and the USDM's are AFM'd... ?

Punisher
02-24-2005, 06:01 PM
I appreciate all of your nice comments towards me.. I've learned what I know from expirence.. and from expirence my last engine swap was horrible.. car spent 3 months in my garage until I finally got it done.. I didn't have a clue on what harness to use.. I tried adapting the 93-95 corolla dash harness into my car.. and that wasn't going to work.. I tried so much crap and I had no clue what I was doing.. so I learned from that.. I learned that in order to do a good job in as little amount of time as possible that plans need to be drawn up.. everything has to be understood and that you need to be prepared before you just jump into something that can be as complicating as an engine swap.. or an AWD conversion.. or even a rwd conversion.. jumping into a project blind is a good way to fail or cut corners and have a below par finished project and it just isn't worth all of the time and effort.

That's why if I took this AWD project on I'd spend a lot of time just planning it.. checking out the all-trac celica's.. seeing every little detail that makes them different from the FWD's.. so I could mimic everything as close as possible.
But looking at the pros and cons of the swap.. I realize that it's way more work/time/money than it's even remotely worth.. just getting my hands on the rear LSD would be such a pain in the ass plus very expensive.. and I don't want to go through the trouble of an AWD swap if it isn't even going to be a true AWD vehicle..

If I already had an all-trac I would just spend the money getting the rear LSD and do that swap.. would be pretty easy and a nice upgrade.. I've heard a lot of bad things about the all-tracs though.. since they weigh a lot more they are generally pretty damn slow.. and if I built my celica up with an mr2 lsd tranny and eventually got up to over 300hp I would be so much faster than an all-trac with the same numbers anyway.. and that's what I want.. a fast as possible straight line car that is also rugged enough to handle going through the snow and whatever else.. I can slow down for the turns and just blow the competition away in the straights.. so I think the mr2 LSD tranny will give me exactly what I want. Hell, 2 drive wheels is better than one any day.

CelicaGT4
02-24-2005, 11:36 PM
all 1st and 2nd gen usdm and jdm motors have AFM's. Only the 3rd gen has a map sensor. just lenthen your jdm harness or go stand alone.

Punisher
02-25-2005, 02:10 AM
i'll just lengthen it.. they aren't that far off..

Ok so I need a 3rd gen then huh.. or atleast a third gen head and ecu/wiring harness?? I'm trying to find a site that lists the differences between all the generations.. curious about what they changed to get the higher horsie numbers from what I assume the same amount of boost and the same compression

jburner21
02-25-2005, 04:47 AM
Hey punisher,

I live in pa too (pittsburgh) and I'm curious to know how u plan on getting ur jdm 3s to pass inspection and emissions... I'm considering the swap with the usdm engine, but I'm curious to know if the usdm engine with the jdm ecu would be equivalent to the jdm motor with the only difference being that it would pass inspection. Or would it still not pass inspection with the jdm ecu...

Just curious

Punisher
02-25-2005, 06:51 AM
pfftt fuck that.. it's a pre-96 car.. therefor inspections are visual.. they look to see if you have a cat.. and if you have an EGR valve.. so I could simply "fake" the EGR valve.. just bolt one somewhere.. lol.. they dont' test if any of it works.. they just wanna see it.

It's either that or I can take it to a guy I know and get it inspected no questions asked.

bongbbreakin
02-25-2005, 04:37 PM
since the JDM harness goes in on the opposite side of the car from the USDM harness, you would have to extend each wire 33 inches to make it reach the ECU, if thats you say isn't very far.to me that is alot of wiring and soldering so i just decided to drill another hole into my firewall. im doing the swap also into an st-184 convertible and I have the Gen 2 3sgte, uncut harness, with the JDM 3sgte ECU...

ChrisD
02-25-2005, 05:11 PM
i'll just lengthen it.. they aren't that far off..

Ok so I need a 3rd gen then huh.. or atleast a third gen head and ecu/wiring harness?? I'm trying to find a site that lists the differences between all the generations.. curious about what they changed to get the higher horsie numbers from what I assume the same amount of boost and the same compression

Basically, the run down is like this.

1st gen 3sgte: top feed 440cc/min injectors, single entry CT26 turbo, small water to air IC, 8.3:1 CR, AFM. 190-195hp.

2nd gen 3sgte: side feed 440cc/min injectors, twin entry CT26 turbo, larger ATA or WTA IC, more aggressive timing maps, 8.5:1 CR (or 8.8? i forget), AFM. 200(usdm) - 225(jdm) hp.

3rd gen 3SGTE: side feed 540cc/min injectors, twin entry CT20b turbo, even larger WTA IC, MAP based ign/fuel maps, similar CR to ST185, no TVIS, larger intake and exhaust manifolds, slightly more aggressive intake cam, slightly better flowing head, stock metal head gasket, larger TB, stock bypass valve. 240(uk) - 255 (jdm) hp.

Punisher
02-25-2005, 05:51 PM
well I want a 3rd gen damn it! I don't want AFM either way... so I gotta go with 3rd gen.

I'll probably just lengthen the wires.. It isn't that hard

YangS
02-25-2005, 08:20 PM
hopefully if you go with the 3rd gen, buy a front clip not just the motor.

Punisher
02-25-2005, 10:50 PM
why get a clip? All i need is the motor and harness and ecu.. with all the sensors of course.. i'm gonna go with an mr2 lsd tranny.. so i'll have to source that seperately anyway.

deuce
02-26-2005, 02:11 AM
To do a 3rd gen swap ...is it as easy as a 2nd gen swap into a celica 92 gts?? or will there be problems etc..?

Punisher
02-26-2005, 11:27 AM
same deal.. just the fact that 3rd gens are harder to get ahold of.. but with all the extra features.. which turn into more horsepower, it's well worth it if you ask me.

ChrisD
02-26-2005, 02:45 PM
why get a clip? All i need is the motor and harness and ecu.. with all the sensors of course.. i'm gonna go with an mr2 lsd tranny.. so i'll have to source that seperately anyway.

Because most places that sell just engines have cut harnesses (you need the ECU and ECU plugs) and dont include the sensors that you need. Sourcing things like the ignitor, coil, injector resistor pack, fuel pump relay, fuel pump resistor, etc., can add a lot of cash to the swap. Plus you may be missing a tonne of things that you wouldn't expect. It makes the swap MUCH harder.

alltracman78
02-26-2005, 07:14 PM
Chris, I was about to jump all over this..

But you set it out straight.... :hehe:

The 185 was 8.8:1, the205 was 8.5:1

And I have to say, the reg AT is defintily awd. Even with a open diff.
I've sent snow from all 4 wheels at once...Plenty of times.... :D


btw, you can run a 3rd g ecu on a 2nd g engine. Just gotta so some wiring. And add a few sensors, like air temp.

Punisher
02-26-2005, 10:27 PM
Um.. well there is nothing special abotu a fuel pump relay... I can just continue using my stock one... All I need is all the engine sensors and shit.. I don't have any place to shove a clip here.. so I can't do that..

Jigglypuff
02-26-2005, 11:05 PM
I'd still recommend a clip. First off, you'll have every sensor you'll need, for sure. Second, if you get a 3rd gen 3S-GTE from a ST205, you can sell the body parts to help recuperate the added costs of buying a clip.

Punisher
02-27-2005, 05:16 AM
One other thing.. I wanna use an MR2 LSD tranny.. how will i have to go about converting the shift linkage then?