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Mr Celica
10-23-2007, 03:53 AM
Hey everyone! I decided to make a thread about future upgrades I am hoping to perform in the near future and finish in the spring. I want to hear your advice and comments on my ideas and possibly enlighten me on the subjects I don't have much skill in.

My plan is to make a N/A beast, and some sort of frankenstein engine.

Engine Plans:

-original 5sfe block
-3sg(t)e cylinder head
-send the head to be port polished
-grind the valves
-send the cam shafts to be ground to a street/race spec
-2nd gen 3sge exhaust manifold
-either a custom CAI or keep the stock box with my K&N filter
-Apexi Neo SAFC2
-MSD sport compact ignition

Exhaust Plans:

-Eliminate the stock CAT and replace with high flow cat underneath the car
-Custom fabricate exhaust pipe to connect header to front pipe, with bung for O2 and wideband
-i have my Pacesetter Monza cat-back right now

Suspension/handling plans:

-KYB GR-2s (already in)
-Eibach sportline kit or ground control system (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=89/CA=18)
-wheel spacers for rear
-Kazera 17"x7.5" rims with 215/40r17 Yokohama tires
-Slotted rotors
-Ceramic pads
-Front strut bar (http://www.performancecenter.com/products?category_name=Suspension+%26+Chassis&clearance=0&step=0&category_name_sub=Frame+Connectors+%7E+Strut+Bars)
-Front lower suspension support by ACE engineering
-Rear 3/4"sway bar by suspension techniques

Transmission plans:

-For now keep stock tranny untill it breaks
-ACT stage 1 street performance clutch 250ft/lbs 60% more clamp power
-clutchmasters 2 piece aluminum flywheel

Asthetics plans:

-Dark tint for rear glass and side glass
-more celicatech stickers (haha)



As I said, this is just a rough copy and I want to hear your opinions about it. I have seen the 3sge head swap done before with just a little custom fabrication for the coolant passages. I have a Haas Mini-mill at hand, a welder, and plenty of metal shops around here. I have a fully capable metal-machining center where I work with a guy who knows what he's doing. including lathe, bridgeport, blanchard, and the mini-mill.

Please let me know about anything you have tried or you have thought about that has failed or anything. I have a good amount of money saved up, and I am planning on purchasing the stuff soon.

I want to do something original, not just another 3sgte swap. I want to get the most out of the engine I have, and then MAYBEEE think about boosting it.

Thanks for all of your time.

-Rich

geebes
10-23-2007, 05:55 AM
Sounds good to me! I've still always wanted to see what the 5sfe was capable of.


Begin the naysaying everyone else!!

Mr Celica
10-24-2007, 12:39 AM
bummmmmppp

any critisizm accepted. prefferably constructive..?

celicaGT90_05
10-24-2007, 12:41 AM
well...from what I hear if you keep the stock 5SFE tranny with high power mods, it wont take long for it to break

Cavanagh
10-24-2007, 12:42 AM
Sounds good if you have the cash. The 5sfe bottom end is very capable of holding alot of hp, so if your worried about boosting, i wouldnt be. Sounds to me like a good idea. How much of a hp gain do you think your setup will give you around? Me personally, i wouldnt seeing it give TOO much.

Murgatroy
10-24-2007, 12:50 AM
Use a 3SGE head. Not the 3SGTE head. I am not certain, but I think there are variations for the turbo applications. Personally I would feel better trying to make NA power using an NA head.

Get an aftermarket header of some sort. Or a Camry header. I am not sure what the 2nd gen 3SGE exhaust manifold looks like, but if it is a header design, I am sure it will be fine.

I would speak with Nuclearhappiness, he has the most extensive knowledge I can think of as far is it is applied to 5SFE in NA applications. There is a thread somewhere I started in the NA forum about a 3SFE, Nuke gave a detailed build that he feels would be good for ~150 horses. If you are using a 3SGE head, your motor will essentially be a stroked 3SGE, not a 5SFE anymore, but most of the theories will still applied.

JohnL and Schmleff built a 5SFE years ago, with massive amounts of effort and work, and in the end they decided it wasn't worth it. I don't doubt their abilities in the slightest, but as far as the potential of the motor, that is another thing.

I am sure the MR2 guys would have a little bit of info about the 3SGE as well. I am sure they swap and build them too. Try some UK forums as well. They speak english and the 3SGE was available there as well. It might take some searching, but the knowledge base has to be there.

Mr Celica
10-24-2007, 12:57 AM
well with the 3sge head i'm thinking mayybbeee 150 to the flywheel, and then the header, safc2, intake, clutch, flywheel maybe 160+ to the flywheel.

with the "G" head it can handle boost better, i'm sure. i like the higher displacement of the 5sfe, and its originalality. so in the long run if i end up running a turbo setup it'd be ok.

as for sourcing the head, i'm having trouble. i could get a new one from 1sttoyotaparts but its a lot of money.

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 02:36 AM
i think you should mod the 5s and not worry about the hybrid. just go with what we talked about, cams/port match/resin spacer/safc2, for starters. also, do the tb coolant bypass too. it's a $1 mod that will reduce heatsoak. i don't think we talked about milling the head, but if you're interested in the added hp from raising the compression ratio then you may as well have that done to. if i were you i wouldn't bother dropping $400 on the safc neo. all they did is incorporate vtec function into the afc unit, and you don't need that. you can save yourself $200 by buying a safc2 off ebay, and have all you need with that unit. plus, you'll need a new, good quality o2 sensor so you can get an accurate tune with the safc. of course, you could ditch the safc and go stand alone ecu. i already told you about my plans of doing that. after you spend the $650+/- that all this stuff will cost you, then you can focus on doing the whole intake/header/exaust combo. then some good plug wires and coil.

there have been several people make decent numbers with the 5sfe by doing the basics.

tred over at mr2oc dyno'd at 118whp, and 127ftlbs, and the only upgrades he had was the basic i/h/e and safc. plus he was a mile above sea level, if he had dyno'd at sea level he would be making much more hp/tq than that. so if you add cams, higher CR, and a good tune to that then he could be making good numbers.

jim snodgrass had pretty much the same setup i do, except he had a stock intake cam, and stand alone, and he dyno'd 147whp and 160flbs.

there are several others to put down much improved numbers without cams too. seriously, if you want to learn more about the capabilities of the 5sfe then go over to mr2oc. they have a wealth of info over there. there's some more power to be had with the 5sfe without spending alot of money. i'm going to pm you a shitload of links to discussions, dyno sheets, and etc. you'll learn a crapload by time you finish reading all that.

extremeskillz
10-25-2007, 02:41 AM
Sounds like its going to be another good build. When do you plan on starting your build up?

Mr Celica
10-25-2007, 02:41 AM
i think you should mod the 5s and not worry about the hybrid. just go with what we talked about, cams/port match/resin spacer/safc2, for starters. also, do the tb coolant bypass too. it's a $1 mod that will reduce heatsoak. i don't think we talked about milling the head, but if you're interested in the added hp from raising the compression ratio then you may as well have that done to. if i were you i wouldn't bother dropping $400 on the safc neo. all they did is incorporate vtec function into the afc unit, and you don't need that. you can save yourself $200 by buying a safc2 off ebay, and have all you need with that unit. plus, you'll need a new, good quality o2 sensor so you can get an accurate tune with the safc. of course, you could ditch the safc and go stand alone ecu. i already told you about my plans of doing that. after you spend the $650+/- that all this stuff will cost you, then you can focus on doing the whole intake/header/exaust combo. then some good plug wires and coil.

there have been several people make decent numbers with the 5sfe by doing the basics.

tred over at mr2oc dyno'd at 118whp, and 127ftlbs, and the only upgrades he had was the basic i/h/e and safc. plus he was a mile above sea level, if he had dyno'd at sea level he would be making much more hp/tq than that. so if you add cams, higher CR, and a good tune to that then he could be making good numbers.

jim snodgrass had pretty much the same setup i do, except he had a stock intake cam, and stand alone, and he dyno'd 147whp and 160flbs.

there are several others to put down much improved numbers without cams too. seriously, if you want to learn more about the capabilities of the 5sfe then go over to mr2oc. they have a wealth of info over there. there's some more power to be had with the 5sfe without spending alot of money. i'm going to pm you a shitload of links to discussions, dyno sheets, and etc. you'll learn a crapload by time you finish reading all that.


nice dude. you're such a great help! now i just need to source the parts! my buddy has a neo he will sell me for 150, but if it doesn't do what i want then i dont want it.

i do need help with the bypass, though.

thank you to all of you putting input in this thread!

Mr Celica
10-25-2007, 02:43 AM
Sounds like its going to be another good build. When do you plan on starting your build up?

i am hoping to start saving up more money for the parts and stuff over the winter, and either find a place to build it indoors during the winter, or wait till spring to complete it. my car sits all winter so i am not sure. i'd love to get it done asap.

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 02:44 AM
well if you can get a neo that cheap then buy it. it'll be perfect.

extremeskillz
10-25-2007, 02:45 AM
Cool

Mr Celica
10-25-2007, 02:45 AM
yea he has a civic turbo and hes going with a hondata instead of the piggy back. his loss my gain! :)

extremeskillz
10-25-2007, 02:47 AM
i am hoping to start saving up more money for the parts and stuff over the winter, and either find a place to build it indoors during the winter, or wait till spring to complete it. my car sits all winter so i am not sure. i'd love to get it done asap.

Word of advise, setup a budget so you can work from that. This way you can track your spending and progress so you don't go over board and go broke. Overall im looking forward to your build.

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 02:47 AM
yeah, no doubt. the tb coolant bypass is simple. just disconnect the 2 coolant lines under the tb and connect the together with a coupler.

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 02:48 AM
btw, did you call Geoff at Colt Cams?

Mr Celica
10-25-2007, 02:57 AM
no but i received an e-mail after i sent in a requisition. they said they had a mild street setup

INT: 211@.050 / 254 Adv Dur./.305 Lift
EX : 211 @ .050 /254 Adv Dur./ .310 Lift

for $375.

what does the TB coolant bypass do? i like understanding things before i do them

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 03:25 AM
that's close to the same grind i have. i have a little more lift than that. .310 intake and .316 exhaust. pretty much the same grind though. compared to the stock profile on our cams that's a big improvement.

all the hot coolant circulating through the tb keeps the air coming into the intake warm all the time. we all know that cooler, more dense air, makes for happy combustion plus more horsepower. so the way to fix this problem is to simply bypass the tb with the coolant. this will allow for much less heatsoak and let cooler air enter the intake. if you live in a climate where the temps stay well below freezing alot then you may want to leave it alone so that you don't form ice in the tb.

Mr Celica
10-25-2007, 04:03 AM
yea.. i thought that was for the sensor in the TB for the reading of the engine coolant temperature. like the cold start or hot engine sensor. if that doesn't have a signal won't it add more fuel and idle higher?

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 04:14 AM
the coolant temp sensor is on the water outlet housing bolted to the head. the coolant passing through the throttle has no influence on any sensor readings. the sensor on the bottom of the tb controls idle air flow. bypassing the coolant passages wont have any effect on that.

Cavanagh
10-25-2007, 05:11 AM
Do you realize how much money you are planning on spending on a 5sfe for the amount of hp you'll get... :eek:

If thats truly what you want to do, then go for it! Did you ever think 3rd gen 3sge?
Ok,ok, i get it, you want a faster 5sfe. i'll be content with it.

Oh, BTW, are you still swapping to 3sge heads?

Mr Celica
10-25-2007, 12:59 PM
i haven't decided yet if i want to switch heads or upgrade this one. the 3rd gen beams 3sge is like $2500 and thats just for the engine tranny and harness, nevermind the odds and ends i will need.

Hiko
10-25-2007, 09:40 PM
i think you should mod the 5s and not worry about the hybrid. just go with what we talked about, cams/port match/resin spacer/safc2, for starters. also, do the tb coolant bypass too. it's a $1 mod that will reduce heatsoak. i don't think we talked about milling the head, but if you're interested in the added hp from raising the compression ratio then you may as well have that done to.

I agree with the idea of sticking with the F series head over swapping a G series. The G series head will need to be used with a G series intake manifold and distributor, necessitating the use of a whole lot of G series electronics (read, PITA). I would go with a full port and polish instead of just a port match. Supposedly, the 5sfe responds very well to a full port (dyno chart seems to be forever delayed, but I'm still looking forward to it). If money isn't too much of an object, I'd also put in 3sge/2jz valves (depending on the year of the 5s, 90-91 uses 3sge IIRC).


if i were you i wouldn't bother dropping $400 on the safc neo. all they did is incorporate vtec function into the afc unit, and you don't need that. you can save yourself $200 by buying a safc2 off ebay, and have all you need with that unit.

SAFC Neo also incorporates 16 points to modify compared to 8 with the SAFC2. For $150, it'd be a great upgrade.


jim snodgrass had pretty much the same setup i do, except he had a stock intake cam, and stand alone, and he dyno'd 147whp and 160flbs.

I thought Jim Snodgrass used a G series head when he got the 147whp.


i haven't decided yet if i want to switch heads or upgrade this one. the 3rd gen beams 3sge is like $2500 and thats just for the engine tranny and harness, nevermind the odds and ends i will need.

Technically, the BEAMS is the 4th gen 3sge. The 3rd gen makes 180hp and can be had for considerably less (around $1000). KoreanJoey has one, so he'll be able to tell you more about that option. It's probably the cheapest way to N/A power in an st-184.

Hookecho
10-25-2007, 10:03 PM
jim made the 147hp on a 5sfe. there was no g series head on that motor at that time. he didn't start building the hybrid until after all that. in fact, i can remember when he sold the built up 5sfe head from that motor to a guy on mr2oc. that person turned around and sold it to someone else.

Hiko
10-26-2007, 12:06 AM
jim made the 147hp on a 5sfe. there was no g series head on that motor at that time. he didn't start building the hybrid until after all that. in fact, i can remember when he sold the built up 5sfe head from that motor to a guy on mr2oc. that person turned around and sold it to someone else.

Well that gives me more hope to the idea of getting good N/A horsepower out of a 5sfe. Good to know.

Mr Celica
10-26-2007, 03:37 AM
im glad i have some fans of this mod.

i want just a little more pep for this car, and to use my mechanical expertise to do it.

i am looking to get a 88-92 supra turbo or a 90-91 mr2 turbo for my go-fast car soon.

Ads28
10-26-2007, 03:44 AM
yeahh ill be following ya on this project im really interested to see what you can get outta the engine

93bottlefedGT-S
10-26-2007, 03:57 AM
ohhh you def. got some fans with this build... especially me, basically cuz i plan on doin the same type of build, 5s block 3s head and so forth...

Hookecho
10-26-2007, 04:01 AM
hey rich, i'm gonna get those links to ya. i haven't forgotten.

Mr Celica
10-26-2007, 04:43 AM
ok cool dude, thanks.

omar
10-28-2007, 03:45 PM
keep us updated. There are many people who are interested in modding the celica but do not have much money. And if they are anything like me, then they can't seem to keep more than $10.00 in the bank at any given time. I plan on sticking witht the 5sfe motor in my car, and build it up. Most of my friends tell me it is a waste of time, but I know what I want and like. Hopefully your funds do not run out before you reach your goal. Good luck on your build and post pics as you progress.