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rexload
10-21-2007, 08:23 PM
Hey Celica Tech.
I am a Honda guy now but was thinking about something different.
I understand that 90-93 Celica is the best Celica generation to modify, is that right?
I understand that there are three generations of 3sgte? Is that a motor I can swap in like a few days or will I need to weld/fabricate?
also What kind of 1/4 mile times should I expect with a stock 200hp 3sgte, on stock ecu?
I would like a fun street car that runs low 13s. Is that possible with a 3sgte swap? Or are there better alternatives?
I would like to spend no more than 7Gs including the cost of car.

Any advice greatly appreciated

Murgatroy
10-21-2007, 08:35 PM
The 4th (`86-`89,) 5th (`90-`93,) and 6th (`94-`99) Celicas are all essentially the same under the panels.

Yes, they are easily modified. Parts are not as common as Hondas, but the availability of Factory Turbo engines is an added benefit.

There are four different revisions of the 3SGTE to date.

Rev 1 (1rst Gen) 3SGTEs came in 4th Gen Celicas. The ST162.

Rev 2 (Second Gen) came in 5th Gen Celicas (ST185) and Second Gen MR2s (SW20.)

Rev 3 (3rd Gen) came in 6th Gen Celicas (ST205) and Second Gen MR2s abroad. The 3rd Gen was never available in the US.

Rev 4 (4th Gen) is still available abroad as it still comes in certain Toyota vehicles. Little is known as to the tuning capabilities of this engine in the States, as most tuners prefer to go with one of the first 3 revisions.

Swapping the 3SGTE into a FWD ST (S meaning S series engine, T meaning Celica Horizontal Chassis) is pretty much straight forward. It is mostly bolt in, wiring being the main issue as well as the decision as to what transmission you want to use.

Swapping a 3SGTE into an FWD AT is more difficult and requires welding motor mounts and changing the crossmember. Using the stock transmission is not an option with this method as the A series engine uses a C series transmission that won't mate to the 3SGTE.

As for 1/4 mile times you can expect mid 14s on a stock swap. With tuning and prep you will see 13s easily.

With searching and discretion you will be able to have a swapped 5th Gen Celica running in the 13s for $7k easily.

Hope this info helps.

Hookecho
10-21-2007, 08:41 PM
the 5th gen is just the most popular to mod. 6th gens are 2nd most popular. there are 4 gens of 3sgte's, and it can be swapped in a few days. you will have the easiest time swapping if you have a gt or gts. you can check out this thread for some 1/4 mile times.http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1795

welcome to c-tech!

Amaymi
10-21-2007, 08:42 PM
I think there might be a spots that would be confusing in your post murg. When he says ST he means the chassis code (ST18x for a 90-93) not the trim level. If you want to buy a 90-93 with the intent of swapping a 3sgte you need to get either the GT or GTS trim level. NOT the ST trim level as you will need to cut mounts and re-weld the proper ones.

vip09
10-21-2007, 08:59 PM
A stock 3sgte swap with 3" exhaust, 3" intake, and FMIC will put you well into the 13's.

rexload
10-21-2007, 09:07 PM
WOW Thank you guys for quick replies and so much good info!
I will continue researching. Seems like Celica is a good platform.
Also
How would I turn up the boost, just a few pounds. would I need dyno tuning?
and
Anybody tried getting a 5th or 6th generation close to 2000lbs? is that possible.

Murgatroy
10-21-2007, 09:25 PM
I didn't think about that in my post.

The chassis codes for the FWD Celicas are as follows:

ST16x. 4th Gen Celica Horizontally opposed engine. S Series engine (ST162= FWD ST/GT/GT-S, ST165= AWD GT-Four/Alltrac)

AT180. 5th Gen ST. Base level. Horizontally opposed engine. A series engine. Lightest of the 5th Gen Chassis. FWD

ST18x. Fifth Gen Horizontally opposed engine. S Series. In the US we got the ST184= FWD GT/GT-S and the ST185= AWD Alltrac.

AT200. 6th Gen. Horizontally opposed engine. A series. Base model.

ST202. 6th Gen. Horizontally opposed engine. S series engine. In the US GT trim only. Canada got GT and GT-S. FWD only.

ST205. 6th Gen. Horizontally opposed engine. S series. AWD. GT-Four. Not available in the US.


As for weight, my AT180 (ST trim level) tips the scales at 2300 lbs with me in it. It is also pushing less than 100 ponies. Making it pretty much a joke until I lose you in the twisties.

2000lbs in a GT/GT-S is a decent goal, but it will take a chunk of work. Including a stripped interior and lightweight body panels. These are available.

The lightest option using an ST184 (GT/GT-S) chassis would start with a GT coupe, no options. This would give you a starting point around 2500 lbs.

rexload
10-21-2007, 09:33 PM
Thank you for all the info!

Just looked at the 1/4 times thread. The times aren't too impressive, a lot of high 14s.

PhillyDRFT
10-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Thank you for all the info!

Just looked at the 1/4 times thread. The times aren't too impressive, a lot of high 14s.

Most people here go for reliability over speed.

GT4SOM
10-21-2007, 10:20 PM
Before you buy a celica. Think about this, do you really wanna go FWD? I would suggest a Alltrac. Its 5th gen celica thats awd.

extremeskillz
10-21-2007, 10:24 PM
If he can find an alltrac. Good luck and welcome aboard.

Ads28
10-21-2007, 10:54 PM
yeahh alltracs rnt exactly easy to come by...well decently priced and good
condition anyway

celicaGT90_05
10-21-2007, 11:19 PM
imo both are great cars, hondas last forever and so do toyota's. Honda's are somewhat of a pain to work on, trust me, I have worked on my brothers accord, but I find the celicas to be pretty easy to do even though they may not seem so at first. If you want to get in to celica's, there is certainly nothing wrong with that, Im certainly happy I did

85gtsblackman
10-22-2007, 12:14 AM
oh yeah toyota also made these rwd celicas no one talks about that u can swap a 7mgte in and run 13 flat on factory 14s and at only 6 lbs

rexload
10-22-2007, 12:40 AM
Before you buy a celica. Think about this, do you really wanna go FWD? I would suggest a Alltrac. Its 5th gen celica thats awd.

I never worked with AWD cars but wouldn't I need a much bigger horsepower number to run 13s with AWD?

vip09
10-22-2007, 01:07 AM
I never worked with AWD cars but wouldn't I need a much bigger horsepower number to run 13s with AWD?

I ran a 13.3 with a 20g turbo kit, FMIC, 3" intake, and open downpipe. At 12psi with a slipping clutch.

celica91gts
10-22-2007, 01:16 AM
I never worked with AWD cars but wouldn't I need a much bigger horsepower number to run 13s with AWD?

yes. a 3sgte swap will beat an alltrac due to more power distribution. the gt4 has i send power to 4 wheels rather then 2. but if i had the choice id pick handeling over speed... try to get a gt4 man

GT4SOM
10-22-2007, 01:52 AM
If I can do it all over, I would save my money to get a ST185 (90-93 Alltrac) Or just buy a 1985 GTS. (RWD) Or just go with a 77 GT. Its just pure sex, its a classic...

celicaGT90_05
10-22-2007, 02:36 AM
yes. a 3sgte swap will beat an alltrac due to more power distribution. the gt4 has i send power to 4 wheels rather then 2. but if i had the choice id pick handeling over speed... try to get a gt4 man

well...not more, but better power distribution. Physics say the more power has to travel, the more you'll end up losing. The major benefit to alltrac's is better traction, but they lose some power in the process

Mafix
10-22-2007, 03:51 AM
nope. if you have to ask...

Mr Celica
10-22-2007, 05:05 AM
oh yeah toyota also made these rwd celicas no one talks about that u can swap a 7mgte in and run 13 flat on factory 14s and at only 6 lbs

lol i like those cars don't worry

turbo4ag
10-22-2007, 05:47 AM
Unless your talking Alltrac, its a FWD car your dealing with. Which is not much different than a Honda. Its a little harder to source parts and do swaps, (I mean nothing is easier than a Civic/Integra) but it costs alot less.

I like to look of the Celica better but thats a whole different topic. The main downsides that have kept me away from the Hondas has really been the cost and thieves and I dont care for the look of their cars. Other than that, a FWD Celica is nothing drastically different. If you had fun with your Civic, you'll like the Celicas.

andy
10-22-2007, 07:49 AM
i have a stock swap, well mostly its a 91 GT w/2nd gen 3sgte. Fmic and what not, i should be in the 13s w/ any sort of traction. the stock boost is 7-9psi, im running mine at a safe 12-13, 14-16 is the max on a stock turbo imo. Its hella fun. My brother has a 93 civic hatch b18c1 swap and i walk away on the interstate. stoopid honduhs. oh and thank you for asking legit questions.

Corey Darling
10-22-2007, 05:24 PM
Yes to GT4 being a bit slow. But keep in mind, they weight alot.

If you're looking for a car in the 2000 lbs range, you wont be finding that with a GT4/alltrac. Mine weighs in at 1480 KG = 3256 lbs minus driver. with a 60/40 weight distribution. And mine is a light GT4, there are other that tip the 1550 kg mark! (widebody, cruisecontrol, egr ect.)

But even stock, its a quick car. And it handles like a dream. Gives the driver real confidence when entering a corner at speed.

There are weight reductions you can make to the GT4 like a downpipe. (Stock cat weighs about 35-40 pounds). You can also get an RC aluminum front bumper to help shift even more weight to the back of the car. (Dont neccesarily need the bumber cover)

And a boost controller would do wonders. I cant wait to get around to installing one. The stock controller (TVSV) bases what it wants to open the waste gate at on many factors (intake temps being one of them) and if it thinks that a high boost setting will cause issues, it will reduce it.

So some days my car feels like its running on 5psi, when stock it should really be 7-11 psi. Alot of this can be attributed to heat soak. The Stock GT4 engine bay get HOT. That is why with the RC, (Rally competition) model, the opted for an WTA intercooler and cut a huge gaping hole in the hood to vent hot air over the turbo.

Im in progress of sending off my Exhaust manifold to a ceramic coaters, this should help with the engine bay temps, and help keep the intake temps down.

The downpipe will also help as there are two which come ceramic coated from the factory.


Yes, the GT4 is a TINY bit slower than other cars of similar HP due to weight of the 4WD. And i'm always hearing about it from my RX7 friend. he's always calling it my 4x4 truck because its high off the ground and is based off a rally car.
But to be honest, as fast as an rx7 is, i really like the 5th gen celica and GT4. not only is it a car not many have heard about, but it also has some racing pedigree that alot of cars can't claim for themselves.

Sure it may take 7 sec 0-60 mph stock, but damn is it quick in the corners.
Put a boost controller on, downpipe/full exhaust, and get the intake temps down, and you'll be laughing.

And your question about needing much higher HP to run a similar time as a RWD car..

For a 9 second 1/4 run, with a GT4, your looking at well above 800 HP

See this page "home of the 10 sec alltrac" pat's car

http://www.turbo4wd.net/pat/

Cheers

Corey

turbo4ag
10-22-2007, 08:26 PM
i really like the 5th gen celica and GT4. not only is it a car not many have heard about, but it also has some racing pedigree that alot of cars can't claim for themselves.

The racing pedigree like being banned for cheating??
LMAO

Finding a good condition Alltrac is too hard. Most people that want to sell it have had nothing but problems with it. The ones that are good condition and good running, the seller knows the value of its rarity. So like I said, your most likely looking at FWD which is about right on par with a 3rd gen Integra (DC??). Its similar weight and handles alot like it. Only difference is the engine will be cheaper on the Celica, but building the chassis is more expensive. So it really just balances itself out.

burnyd
10-22-2007, 08:32 PM
ah, you can really compare a celica with a honda being that there both made to be souly just economy shit boxes....

In reality when you compare the alltrac with a fwd celica timeslip wise a stock swapped celica will generally go faster because of the weight, but just like a fwd civic after its actually making real power its harder to get traction with it.....so thats where a alltrac would come in... the only problem with an alltrac is due to their weight (anyone who has ever driven one can tell you) they feel pig heavy but can take any corner or any bend going pretty fast.

The overall feel of a square motor tq and hp wise of a 3sgte compared to a hun duh duh duh you can feel the mid range tq opossed to nothing top end.... Those things sound like weed wackers unless you really have th emoney to go with a k series then your talking some real power those motors are amazing.

If you had the budget of 7k to work with... buying a 5th gen and getting a st205 clip and tossing everything from there to go in would be soo easy to acheive mid to low 13s without a problem.

turbo4ag
10-22-2007, 11:24 PM
The overall feel of a square motor tq and hp wise of a 3sgte compared to a hun duh duh duh you can feel the mid range tq opossed to nothing top end.... Those things sound like weed wackers unless you really have th emoney to go with a k series then your talking some real power those motors are amazing.

:thumbsdow

Thats biased. A B18 has 127tq while 3sge has 135tq. The B18 (A/C) is just a better engine than the 3SGE platform for so many reasons. Im not going into a 3SGTE because thats a bad comparison with the FI vs. NA.

The later BEAMS 3SGE is about on par with a K20 (RSX/Integra).

burnyd
10-22-2007, 11:28 PM
:thumbsdow

Thats biased. A B18 has 127tq while 3sge has 135tq. The B18 (A/C) is just a better engine than the 3SGE platform for so many reasons. Im not going into a 3SGTE because thats a bad comparison with the FI vs. NA.

The later BEAMS 3SGE is about on par with a K20 (RSX/Integra).

you must of missed the letter T.

celica91gts
10-22-2007, 11:40 PM
ah, you can really compare a celica with a honda being that there both made to be souly just economy shit boxes....

In reality when you compare the alltrac with a fwd celica timeslip wise a stock swapped celica will generally go faster because of the weight, but just like a fwd civic after its actually making real power its harder to get traction with it.....so thats where a alltrac would come in... the only problem with an alltrac is due to their weight (anyone who has ever driven one can tell you) they feel pig heavy but can take any corner or any bend going pretty fast.

The overall feel of a square motor tq and hp wise of a 3sgte compared to a hun duh duh duh you can feel the mid range tq opossed to nothing top end.... Those things sound like weed wackers unless you really have th emoney to go with a k series then your talking some real power those motors are amazing.

If you had the budget of 7k to work with... buying a 5th gen and getting a st205 clip and tossing everything from there to go in would be soo easy to acheive mid to low 13s without a problem.

man... tha k series arnt the only badass engines honda makes... b16... b18... k20...k24...f20.....f22... badass freaking engines man.....

turbo4ag
10-22-2007, 11:42 PM
I didn't. It just makes no sense to compare a turbo engine to a naturally aspirated engine.

The 3SGE is the naturally aspirated platform for the 3SGTE. Which the B18 is just a plain better engine. In comparison, a B18 with a custom turbo setup should still easily beat a 3SGTE with an aftermarket custom turbo setup of similar parts. The VTEC & R/S ratio will always deliver the win since you can use super long duration & high lift, but still give you low end power.

DarkSideCelica
10-23-2007, 01:10 AM
F23 motor = sleeved block + low compression = boost happy.. cheap to work on, and turboed will run low 13s

btw, f23 motor is an accord motor

85gtsblackman
10-23-2007, 01:20 AM
I understand that 90-93 Celica is the best Celica generation to modify, is that right?

if its fwd not really

u can get an 82-85 celica, use the trans thats in it with a 86.5-92 supra n/a bell housing, swap a 7mgte into it and it will cost the same or less than a 3s swap, its way easier too, a guy on celica-gts.com did this w/o an intercooler and at 6lbs with some crap 235/60/14s ran a 13 flat, oh and he had a 3.73 lsd diff out of a celica supra.

that means he was running mayyyybe 200hp and trapped a 13 imagine 250-300hp which is easy to do

only reason i havent done this yet is cause im building my car for autox puropses, now i may put a 3rzfe in here , same weight as my current motor but makes 165-175hp stock

celica91gts
10-23-2007, 02:15 AM
F23 motor = sleeved block + low compression = boost happy.. cheap to work on, and turboed will run low 13s

btw, f23 motor is an accord motor

i forgot h22's too.... thier badass as well

celicaGT90_05
10-23-2007, 02:19 AM
if its fwd not really

u can get an 82-85 celica, use the trans thats in it with a 86.5-92 supra n/a bell housing, swap a 7mgte into it and it will cost the same or less than a 3s swap, its way easier too, a guy on celica-gts.com did this w/o an intercooler and at 6lbs with some crap 235/60/14s ran a 13 flat, oh and he had a 3.73 lsd diff out of a celica supra.

that means he was running mayyyybe 200hp and trapped a 13 imagine 250-300hp which is easy to do

only reason i havent done this yet is cause im building my car for autox puropses, now i may put a 3rzfe in here , same weight as my current motor but makes 165-175hp stock

You're just bein biast to RWD lol just because its FWD does not mean its bad to modify

85gtsblackman
10-23-2007, 02:36 AM
torque steer anyone


he could go get a 84-88 half ton truck and put a 7m in it and run 11s

Hiko
10-23-2007, 02:52 AM
The VTEC & R/S ratio will always deliver the win since you can use super long duration & high lift, but still give you low end power.

Honda engine's have typically high R/S ratio's (quick exception being the H22), and are not known for their low-end torque, vtec or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash the engines, but there are limitations to what they can do.

But to try and compare apples to apples HP wise to torque.

K20A2: 200HP @ 7000, 142 TQ @ 6000
3SGE BEAMS: 200HP @ 7000, 141 TQ @ 4800

B16A: 160HP @ 7600, 111 TQ @ 7000
4AGE 20V: 160HP @ 7800, 120 TQ @ 5200

B20A5: 135HP @ 5800, 111 TQ @ 4000
3SGE (1st gen): 138HP @ 6200, 130 @ 4800

D16A6: 108HP @ 6000, 100 TQ @ 5000
4AFE: 105HP @ 5800, 101 TQ @ 4800

And just to add.
F20C: 240HP @ 8300, 153 TQ @ 7500(!!)

A concession I have to make is that the B18C beats out the 2zz in both torque and horsepower.

Again, all I'm doing is correcting the idea that honda has great low-end power. They are amazing for developing horsepower out of an engine, but they are not known for their torque.

DarkSideCelica
10-23-2007, 08:32 AM
^^he's right... honduhs have no torque LOL

KoreanJoey
10-23-2007, 08:53 AM
As to an alltrac giving confidence to a driver... that's cause with stock suspension they understeer to scrub off all your speed... it's easy to be confident when you're going slower.

vip09
10-23-2007, 09:37 AM
A concession I have to make is that the B18C beats out the 2zz in both torque and horsepower.


I don't know where you are getting your info buddy.

B18C1: 170HP @ 7600, 128TQ @ 6200
2ZZ-GE: 180HP @ 7600, 130TQ @ 6800

KoreanJoey
10-23-2007, 09:51 AM
Ummmm... B18C5... pwns the 2ZZ

KoreanJoey
10-23-2007, 09:55 AM
2ZZ-GE: 180HP @ 7600, 130TQ @ 6800 rmp
B18C5: 195HP @ 7,800 130TQ @ 7,600 rpm

And this is just the USDM B18C5... JDM is even more from what I heard.

Hiko
10-23-2007, 04:55 PM
I don't know where you are getting your info buddy.

B18C1: 170HP @ 7600, 128TQ @ 6200
2ZZ-GE: 180HP @ 7600, 130TQ @ 6800

The 2ZZGE is still losing in torque with your comparison by way of RPM.

With that said though, sorry, I did make a mistake by saying that the B18 beat the 2ZZ out with both horsepower and torque as I hadn't found a fair comparison at that time (I guess after the fourth pair I figured the point had been made). I'm trying to get HP equal (within ~5) for same displacement, and see how the torques compare.

B18C5: 195HP @ 7800, 130TQ @ 7,600
2ZZGE (elise): 190HP @ 7800, 138TQ @ 6800

So after finally finding a better stacked B18 to 2ZZ comparison, then the 2ZZ does win out in terms of torque.

vip09
10-23-2007, 06:01 PM
2ZZ-GE: 180HP @ 7600, 130TQ @ 6800 rmp
B18C5: 195HP @ 7,800 130TQ @ 7,600 rpm

And this is just the USDM B18C5... JDM is even more from what I heard.


You can't really compare it to the C5 considering it came in a limited production car. The GSR engine is the better comparison.

*edit: Actually, it would still be more fair to compare the Lotus tuned 2ZZ to the B18C1. It's still the exact same 2ZZ on the inside. The B18C5 has higher compression pistons, more aggressive cams, etc. It's just not a fair comparison.

rexload
10-23-2007, 06:23 PM
WHOA wasn't expecting so many responses and great ideas! Thanks guys!

Now it is a HonDUH vs Toyota discussion lol

yeah, Hondas are great to modify. I want to learn more about Toyotas but still thinking about whether I should stick to Hondas. H22 motor(170-175whp,135-140wtq stock) in a CRX or EG hatch would be my choice. It could run 13.0 with some bolt-ons. Total cost of a project like that would probably be around $5000. K series is a little to expensive for me. And those numbers for Honda motors posted above don't seem accurate.

What I am interested in now is this 7mgte converstion! Is it really that easy and cheap? Where can I find more info on it???!

rexload
10-23-2007, 06:31 PM
Unless your talking Alltrac, its a FWD car your dealing with. Which is not much different than a Honda. Its a little harder to source parts and do swaps, (I mean nothing is easier than a Civic/Integra) but it costs alot less.

I like to look of the Celica better but thats a whole different topic. The main downsides that have kept me away from the Hondas has really been the cost and thieves and I dont care for the look of their cars. Other than that, a FWD Celica is nothing drastically different. If you had fun with your Civic, you'll like the Celicas.

That's interesting. I always thought that Toyotas were more expensive to modify. But that's a big + if Celica parts aren't expensive.

rexload
10-23-2007, 06:38 PM
Yes to GT4 being a bit slow. But keep in mind, they weight alot.

If you're looking for a car in the 2000 lbs range, you wont be finding that with a GT4/alltrac. Mine weighs in at 1480 KG = 3256 lbs minus driver. with a 60/40 weight distribution. And mine is a light GT4, there are other that tip the 1550 kg mark! (widebody, cruisecontrol, egr ect.)

But even stock, its a quick car. And it handles like a dream. Gives the driver real confidence when entering a corner at speed.

There are weight reductions you can make to the GT4 like a downpipe. (Stock cat weighs about 35-40 pounds). You can also get an RC aluminum front bumper to help shift even more weight to the back of the car. (Dont neccesarily need the bumber cover)

And a boost controller would do wonders. I cant wait to get around to installing one. The stock controller (TVSV) bases what it wants to open the waste gate at on many factors (intake temps being one of them) and if it thinks that a high boost setting will cause issues, it will reduce it.

So some days my car feels like its running on 5psi, when stock it should really be 7-11 psi. Alot of this can be attributed to heat soak. The Stock GT4 engine bay get HOT. That is why with the RC, (Rally competition) model, the opted for an WTA intercooler and cut a huge gaping hole in the hood to vent hot air over the turbo.

Im in progress of sending off my Exhaust manifold to a ceramic coaters, this should help with the engine bay temps, and help keep the intake temps down.

The downpipe will also help as there are two which come ceramic coated from the factory.


Yes, the GT4 is a TINY bit slower than other cars of similar HP due to weight of the 4WD. And i'm always hearing about it from my RX7 friend. he's always calling it my 4x4 truck because its high off the ground and is based off a rally car.
But to be honest, as fast as an rx7 is, i really like the 5th gen celica and GT4. not only is it a car not many have heard about, but it also has some racing pedigree that alot of cars can't claim for themselves.

Sure it may take 7 sec 0-60 mph stock, but damn is it quick in the corners.
Put a boost controller on, downpipe/full exhaust, and get the intake temps down, and you'll be laughing.

And your question about needing much higher HP to run a similar time as a RWD car..

For a 9 second 1/4 run, with a GT4, your looking at well above 800 HP

See this page "home of the 10 sec alltrac" pat's car

http://www.turbo4wd.net/pat/

Cheers

Corey

Thanks for the reply and a good link.
About boost and controlling it in Toyotas.... I am not very familiar with all that. So you are saying that I can modify my downpipe/exhaust/intake and slap on an aftermarket boost controller and I don't need to take the car to a dyno shop for a tune every time I modify something or raise the boost?

rexload
10-23-2007, 06:49 PM
F23 motor = sleeved block + low compression = boost happy.. cheap to work on, and turboed will run low 13s

btw, f23 motor is an accord motor

yeah that is a good option also. I actually own an Accord right now, I know them inside out, but want a smaller car.
I think I would rather go with an H-series if I were to put it into a lighter chassis. Boosted H22 would be sweet!!! but F23 could probably be more reliable you are right about that

vip09
10-23-2007, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the reply and a good link.
About boost and controlling it in Toyotas.... I am not very familiar with all that. So you are saying that I can modify my downpipe/exhaust/intake and slap on an aftermarket boost controller and I don't need to take the car to a dyno shop for a tune every time I modify something or raise the boost?

I was running a stock ECU and stock fuel system with a 20G upgrade turbo kit, a built engine with higher compression pistons, 3" intake, tubular exhaust manifold, open downpipe.. it did just fine. I'm pretty sure I could have ran a 12.9 but my clutch was slipping pretty bad, so I could only manage a 13.3.

DarkSideCelica
10-23-2007, 07:03 PM
boosted h22 is not as good as a boosted f23... h22 is high compression, and the block is not as strong... a lot of ppl are diving into the f23 builds now since they're so cheap and abundant... h22 NA vs F23 NA on the other hand, H22 will own....

bad thing abt the f23 is tht it is SOHC, and the head is pretty restrictive... i went around that doing a H23 head swap (milled, stage 1 cams, etc)... i'm at 155 whp now with a NA setup, but i'll be getting low compression pistons, rods, etc to make the block really boost-happy.. power goals? 260 whp ;)

btw, i'm a mod at www.6thgenaccord.com

feel free to drop by ;)

rexload
10-23-2007, 07:18 PM
boosted h22 is not as good as a boosted f23... h22 is high compression, and the block is not as strong... a lot of ppl are diving into the f23 builds now since they're so cheap and abundant... h22 NA vs F23 NA on the other hand, H22 will own....

bad thing abt the f23 is tht it is SOHC, and the head is pretty restrictive... i went around that doing a H23 head swap (milled, stage 1 cams, etc)... i'm at 155 whp now with a NA setup, but i'll be getting low compression pistons, rods, etc to make the block really boost-happy.. power goals? 260 whp ;)

btw, i'm a mod at www.6thgenaccord.com

feel free to drop by ;)

mad props man! Sounds like a very nice set-up! You'll have no problem getting to 260whp. What kind of turbo and eng management are you using if its not a secret?

DarkSideCelica
10-23-2007, 07:22 PM
prob t3/t4 turbo with a 57 trim

EMS if i can afford it, or hondata since i went OBD1

rexload
10-23-2007, 07:29 PM
I was running a stock ECU and stock fuel system with a 20G upgrade turbo kit, a built engine with higher compression pistons, 3" intake, tubular exhaust manifold, open downpipe.. it did just fine. I'm pretty sure I could have ran a 12.9 but my clutch was slipping pretty bad, so I could only manage a 13.3.

That's interesting. I don't have any experience tuning boosted cars... but I always thought that if you don't have your fuel/air mixtures and ignition precisely tuned - BOOM! Was your car reliable with those mods? and by the way low13-high12 are great numbers :bigthumbu put a stronger clutch in there!

burnyd
10-23-2007, 07:33 PM
That's interesting. I don't have any experience tuning boosted cars... but I always thought that if you don't have your fuel/air mixtures and ignition precisely tuned - BOOM! Was your car reliable with those mods? and by the way low13-high12 are great numbers :bigthumbu put a stronger clutch in there!

wtf, your in pittsburgh?

celicaGT90_05
10-23-2007, 07:54 PM
uh oh, looks like you have a new buddy to forge with!

vip09
10-23-2007, 08:21 PM
That's interesting. I don't have any experience tuning boosted cars... but I always thought that if you don't have your fuel/air mixtures and ignition precisely tuned - BOOM! Was your car reliable with those mods? and by the way low13-high12 are great numbers :bigthumbu put a stronger clutch in there!


As long as you stay within the limits of the stock fuel system, which is about 260whp or so, you will be fine with the stock ECU.

Cavanagh
10-24-2007, 01:03 AM
What I am interested in now is this 7mgte converstion! Is it really that easy and cheap? Where can I find more info on it???!
a 7mgte will not fit.

mar_phi6
10-24-2007, 02:44 AM
22re Engines !!

Dan_Q
10-25-2007, 06:56 AM
Interesting thread folks, some good info and good discussion as usual :bigthumbu

Just my 2c:

With regards the NA honda vs 3SGE na toyota engines, they are quite a bit different- especially if your talkin B series units. Just for comparison I once had a bit of a drag with a friends CRX delsol SiR (B16A2) vs my ST182 gen5 liftback (rev2 3SGE) and it was neck and neck all the way up.

With regards the 7M-GTE in the 60 series (gen3) celica, I believe you'd have to relocate the radiator forwards of the slam panel to get it in (not certain on this), and also the 7MGTE's are a bitch for blowing head gaskets- but indeed very cheap horsepower.

Easiest way to build a turbo RWD celica would be to buy an MA61 with the 5M-GE 12v twincam six, throw that in the bin and swap in the 7MGTE as it has the space for a six to begin with.

Some of the above may be wrong, just my own opinions, feel free to flame me! :lolhittin