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Ajilon
09-13-2007, 08:01 PM
ok so my 4th gen convertible has been down since May and all efforts to resurrect it have failed horribly. The car ran better with a hole in the block of the 3sfe than it does with the 5sfe in it. So many people have tried to get it running and really just can't figure out what the issue is it. It's getting fuel to the rail but then cutting out. In essence, the engine runs, sounds great, but only for about 30 seconds. No doubt it's a wiring issue, but then again, the car has developed more wiring issues since the swap than I can list in a day.

I'm out of patience. I'm out of money and I just don't have to time to work on it anymore. I have several options here and I guess I'm just trying to decide which one makes the most sense.

I can pull the 5sfe and save it for the GTS since it's on the last legs and literally bleeds fluids all over the street daily. it would be a good straight up, easy swap into that. And like I said, the motor does run good if you can keep it running. If I did that, I could part out the shell, upgraded suspension, wheels, and brake system.

I could try to sell the car as it sits, but I don't see me getting that much money out of it since very few people have use for a dead 4th gen.

I don't know what else to do. The whole issue has become a really sore subject with me lately. I've put 2 years of work and effort into this car and it's gotten me no where. I need something a little more reliable.

What do you guys think?

Hookecho
09-13-2007, 08:13 PM
don't let it beat you. it's just a motor and you are very capable of problem solving from what i can tell. i realize you may be frustrated though.

KoreanJoey
09-13-2007, 08:19 PM
You know, it sounds like a fuel pump relay problem. dmboy_wsu had the same issue, have you tried running a jumper to bypass the fuel pump relay?

Ajilon
09-13-2007, 08:33 PM
You know, it sounds like a fuel pump relay problem. dmboy_wsu had the same issue, have you tried running a jumper to bypass the fuel pump relay?


yeah.. well... kinda.

It goes back to the many wiring issues the car has. Too many to even begin sorting out. The diagnostics box is all messed up or not connected or something, so jumping the pins isn't an option, though we tried that before we realized this.

Borinal
09-13-2007, 08:46 PM
I'm in the process of narrowing it down 100% at this point and potentially having it driveable, barring that the fuel pump isn't toast, but I'd imagine the pump wouldn't work on START if there was anything wrong with it. Anyways, what I'll be doing is hot wiring the fuel pump from thedirect wires off of it to the B+ straight off of the ECU harness. If it runs, perfect easy fix! The diagnostics box doesn't work at all it's cut/severed/not connected, whatever, somewhere in the harness the connector out of engine harness from ecu get power from B+ but when I bridge that with the FP wire, it doesn't run. But it DOES appear to pump when you turn ignition on, so I'm taking it staright to the source, if all I have to do is run a hard wire or a new one to the relay and eventually fix the daiganostics box, great, easy fix. So it's on the verge of being narrowed down 100% and fixed, unless there is anything else wrong. Also, there is most likely an air bubble in the clutch line!

It currently turns over and begins to run for a split 1-3 seconds and then it loses fuel and dies. So, everything is functioning to some degree to allow it to run off of spraying Ether into the intake manifold. So if we get the fuel pump going, it should drive fine and then we can fit and finish the rest as we have time.

KoreanJoey
09-13-2007, 08:46 PM
hrmmm... wish I could help but I'm kinda far from you guys. Maybe when I one day make the visit to Lunis :)

Luni
09-13-2007, 08:52 PM
I told you this one too.

AFM equipped toyotas will start up on a boner map, and then switch to AFM reading.

If your AFM is unplugged it will start up, wait a second or 2 and then die.

KoreanJoey
09-13-2007, 08:55 PM
Um... is she running the 5SFE on the 3SFE equipment? because the 5SFE is MAP...

Borinal
09-13-2007, 08:59 PM
Doesn't make any difference, I told you that. But for the record on the more RECENT briding of B+ and what SHOULD be connected to FP from in the car under the dash it didn't make a difference, still wouldn't run, and I plugged in AFM. At that point AFM doesn't matter because it should have been hard wired to be pumping as long as key was at on position. So, the FP wire isn't connecting to the FP, and I highly doubt the fuel pump is dead, because with Fuel Filter disconnected on the top, on start it shoots fuel, on on position key NOTHING, if it started for a second and stopped I'd be inclined to think possibly a FP issue, but definitely thinking wiring still.

KoreanJoey
09-13-2007, 09:01 PM
Is the FP relay just dead maybe? It does happen.

nuclearhappines
09-13-2007, 09:06 PM
besides the fuel problem

on most toyota ignitors there's an IGT and IGF wire

IGT is ignition trigger
IGF is ignition feedback
if the ecu doesn't see IGF (feedback) it will not know if the coil is firing or not, and so it will not know how to sync with the cars rpm and will end up killing power... i'm not sure how long this takes to happen but it's one thing to look at too...

Borinal
09-13-2007, 09:09 PM
Is the FP relay just dead maybe? It does happen.
Hard wired, relay is bypassed. I've considered that the relay was bad or that the required sensors were not reporting to the relay in a fashion that the requirements were met for it to allow the FP to engage permenantantly, so I pulled the relay and hard wired them. As I said, I believe somewhere in the harness the FP wire isn't connecting, that or the FP is dead, but I'm leaning towards wiring given everything stated in my other posts.

Borinal
09-13-2007, 09:14 PM
besides the fuel problem

on most toyota ignitors there's an IGT and IGF wire

IGT is ignition trigger
IGF is ignition feedback
if the ecu doesn't see IGF (feedback) it will not know if the coil is firing or not, and so it will not know how to sync with the cars rpm and will end up killing power... i'm not sure how long this takes to happen but it's one thing to look at too...
Yeah, I've considered that. At this point, I believe that it's not running due to the other issues though, because if you spray ether it runs fine (not good on seals, so it was just for sanity's sake), it may not run good if other sensors aren't functioning and etc. But the fact that it idled smooth and revved' sounded healthy and good, I think it's just the FP wire. I may be wrong, whatever it turns out to be though we'll figure it out. Keep the ideas coming though, wondering what I could have missed. From what I've read/heard the only thing it looks at on that relay shouldn't be a further problem such as the IGT/IGF, but worth checking out to make sure everything is in place.

Rix86
09-13-2007, 09:33 PM
which parts from which cars/engines are you using?

Borinal
09-13-2007, 09:35 PM
My logic could be totally fucked, but if the FP is provided 12v directly it SHOULD work, there are only 2 wires from FP, if I bypass the safetey relay it should run as long as the car has power, the fan does, so should anything else connected to B+ including the fuelpump regardless of AFM and all that other 'trigger wire' etc shit that is being thrown repeatedly my way, I understand the set of voltage input requirements to activate the relay, but I've bypassed it, the only thing I can gather is that the wire in the harness isn't connecting to the FP physically, though I don't know where the FP connects to ignition (like to prime with starter, and it does spray on prime/ignition) so I'm guessing that could be from the ignition switch direct and a separate wire for the fp relay, I could be wrong still, but pretty sure I'm troubleshooting it the only feasible way at this point, as long as I'm not missing something, and I don't THINK that I am.

Borinal
09-13-2007, 09:35 PM
which parts from which cars/engines are you using?
3S harness/ecu/sensors on 5S motor.

3sgte@daspeedof
09-13-2007, 09:52 PM
I wish I could help, just keep at it, I'm in the same boat, and I just can't get myself motivated enough to get mine back running either.

Borinal
09-13-2007, 09:55 PM
Well I'm bound and determined. Even if I have to run a fuel line to a converted beer hat with mounted gas cans, and blow fuel into the TB; that fucking car is going to drive. LOL

nuclearhappines
09-13-2007, 09:59 PM
is the fuel pump relay clicking over ? do you have a digital volt meter ?

on the older (pre 90s cars) the AFM could actually cause fuel cut... so that was a fuel pump trigger and it's documented in the BGB... look it up...

Rix86
09-13-2007, 10:02 PM
put power and ground manually to the fuel pump, see what happens.
Are you using the 3s distributor?

Borinal
09-13-2007, 11:00 PM
put power and ground manually to the fuel pump, see what happens.
Are you using the 3s distributor?

<BGF>
Yes. We had to. the 5sfe dizzy has an external coil, whereas the 3sfe one has an internal. because there's no wire off the harness for this, we had to use the original. At first I thought this was causing the problem so I sourced another one but I'm getting the same results.

Mental Note: check who is logged in on computer before posting

Borinal
09-13-2007, 11:58 PM
put power and ground manually to the fuel pump, see what happens.
Are you using the 3s distributor?
That is exactly what I've been saying that I'm going to do. I'll source out what is going on with the relay and it is probably a junction that isn't connected, but I need to get power to the FP and get it running and driveable in the interm of FIXING it properly.

Borinal
09-14-2007, 12:02 AM
Luni and I were chatting, came up with essentially the same thing, pretty sure we've got it worked out. Just really nothing else that it could be. I'll post a scan and explanation when it's running.

Luni
09-14-2007, 12:08 AM
I think we found the problem guys.

He has manually bypassed the FP relay and hit it with 12 volts and it still doesnt work.

It does however prime when he turns the key to ON.

Looking at the diagram it shows the FP blu/blk 12 volt wire connected to the Fuel pump relay. It also shows a tie into the ignition switch as well. What that tells me is if he bypasses it at the relay it should make it fire all the time. It isnt. So that tells me he has a break in the wire between the relay and the diagnosis box, and the ignition switch tiein is after that, and that circuit to FP is still good.

Hes basically missing 1 jumper of wire. So if he just runs a wire and ties it directly to the fuel pump itself from the FP relay, it will work.

vip09
09-14-2007, 12:22 AM
Good luck guys!

Rix86
09-14-2007, 12:30 AM
when you say FP relay, do you mean the circuit opening relay?
Or does that car have a seperate fuel pump relay?

Luni
09-14-2007, 12:34 AM
Circuit opening relay IS the FP relay

FP relay has like... 2 triggers. One is the B+ wire. One is the green wire from the AFM. Fp relay also has a wire going to the CSI, and another wire going to the FP.

Ignition also is tied into several wires at common junctions. One of those junctions is at the FP wire AFTER the FP relay.

This has to be true because if he turns key to on the system primes and squirts fuel for second upon key on (to prime the system for pressure). So that is active, but if he bypasses the FP relay and goes direct 12v to the FP feed wire it does NOT work. That says theres a short between FP relay and FP somewhere BEFORE where the ignition on ties into the FP circuitry.

Rix86
09-14-2007, 12:40 AM
more like an OPEN, unless there's a blown fuse or melted wire somewhere.
I should grab an older EWD and see what I can come up with....

Borinal
09-14-2007, 12:56 AM
Yeah, open not short, open/break. and you mean BEFORE the relay, because after the relay it would rely on the relay, but we all know what you meant.

The B+ wire in the DIAG box has no juice either so there is more to the whole mess, but I'm looking to get it running and then to sort all of the other issues out properly over the winter when the car really isn't driveable and it is ok for it to be down, right now we kinda need it running especially sine my MR2 is awaiting axle seals.

Luni
09-14-2007, 01:03 AM
No Dave.

I mean AFTER the relay.

If it was open BEFORE the relay, it wouldnt matter now would it? Youd be troubleshooting a trigger situation, not an actual fuel pump on/off situation.

Its open AFTER the relay sends its signal out to the pump. Its open BEFORE the pump, AFTER the relay. Not before. There is no "before" the relay. "Before" the relay is simplay Green AFM wire and blk/yellow 12 volt wire.

We know they work.

Luni
09-14-2007, 01:23 AM
more like an OPEN, unless there's a blown fuse or melted wire somewhere.
I should grab an older EWD and see what I can come up with....

We have the EWD on the site, and I have the diagram.

Its very simple and easy to read. Im pretty sure this is the issue.

celicaGT90_05
09-14-2007, 01:35 AM
honestly Aji I think your car is beautiful, I'd love to have it if you sold it though I cant really fit anymore cars here, but I'd prefer to see you get it running....as hard as it may be

Borinal
09-14-2007, 02:27 AM
I thought that you meant the ignition/prime. I didn't catch that you were referring to the open in the circuit. =)

Luni
09-14-2007, 08:51 PM
So, the FP system works but now the Injectors arent firing.

God dammit someone really fubared the wiring on this thing when they cut that harness.

Ajilon
09-14-2007, 10:14 PM
yeah I know. this is what I've been saying. the wiring harness is so messed up that it's damn near impossible to figure out. Basically if the injectors aren't getting a signal when they should, something else is when it shouldn't be. That can cause even more problems. I guess what I need is another 3sfe harness or use the 5sfe and re-pin the body. Anyone have any idea how intensive/difficult/tool throwing process that is?

Borinal
09-14-2007, 10:42 PM
We'll figure it out. That may very well be the way to go, and the way I wanted/suggested (it's your car) to go originally when it was being swapped. But we'll test the basics, if it's the triggers that are the problem, it may very well be easier to swap the harnesses. We'll probably end up doing that, but Rob figured out which wire pulses the ground, so we can see if the ECU is sending the injectors a signal at all, and if not it's the triggers, AFM, TPS, whatever, and that may be a bitch to troubleshoot, so meh, I dunno. But we'll get it for sure. Might be better to just swap it to the good harness we have, less of a headache, body wiring shouldn't be much compared to fixing this harness and it would control the motor better, work with the larger injectors etc...

Ajilon
09-14-2007, 11:40 PM
can we just set it on fire, collect the insurance and buy an STi?

Borinal
09-15-2007, 01:39 AM
can we just set it on fire, collect the insurance and buy an STi?
I didn't know it was worth an STI dead. >=) Let's talk!

Ajilon
09-15-2007, 02:00 AM
well... not all inclusive, however, the insurance payment would make a nice down payment on one :D

Borinal
09-15-2007, 02:29 AM
well... not all inclusive, however, the insurance payment would make a nice down payment on one :D
Can we trade in the Minvan too? Don't need it at that point! Well... for 3 of the kids anyways, the other one should just be gratefull to have a seat on the ski rack.

Ajilon
09-15-2007, 03:58 AM
oddly enough the dealership asked me the same question today when I made the appointment to have the electrical problem diagnosed!

Borinal
09-15-2007, 04:05 AM
If you wanted to trade it in for an STI??

85gtsblackman
09-16-2007, 10:28 AM
get a legacy gt spec b