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View Full Version : Mr2 vs. All Track



ReRun64
08-23-2007, 09:44 PM
Sorry if this is the rong spot, I hope yall dont mind if it is?

I was wanting to know what yall guys opinions were on the pros and cons of the Celica All Track vs. 93 Mr2 Turbo in the twisties. Which would yall say is better and in what ways and conditions. Maybe even GSX? Thanks Chris

burnyd
08-23-2007, 09:50 PM
In autox I would prefer a alltrac if I was road racing I would like to have my mr2 back... and spell alltrac correct lol!

T-spoon
08-23-2007, 10:25 PM
Hmmm, I think I disagree. The MR2s have SUPERB turn-in. They are much sharper/crisper/snappier in tight manuvering. Alltracs simply stick to the road and take about as much as you'll give them in a sweeping curve. But, having just driven them and not road raced or autox'ed either one is why I say I /think/ I disagree, couldn't claim to know for sure.

burnyd
08-23-2007, 10:38 PM
Hmmm, I think I disagree. The MR2s have SUPERB turn-in. They are much sharper/crisper/snappier in tight manuvering. Alltracs simply stick to the road and take about as much as you'll give them in a sweeping curve. But, having just driven them and not road raced or autox'ed either one is why I say I /think/ I disagree, couldn't claim to know for sure.


Well, Maybe for an NA mr2 it could be decent at autox... the problem I had was Id boost with that small JDM ct26 and it would just make thinks a bit difficult when it made more power around bends.... basicly what Im trying to say it a straight away with one or two bends with a Mr2 is great.... when you start taking a mr2 turbo into multiple bends and corners all at one time its going to wipe out... imho, but then again this was on my turbo mr2.... When I road raced my car I was beating alot of cars there out for the track rental....

I have not yet to autox or road race my st185... chances are ill do it here next season but considering the weight and the handleing I think it would do pretty good in autox... decent at road race... but the mr2 would definately be the better of the two as far as road race.

T-spoon
08-23-2007, 10:51 PM
Well, yeah, there's always the turbo issue, and the alltrac handles that kind of power transition in a corner better than an MR drivetrain. I bet the spyders would AX nicely, but yeah, completely different car than a 93 turbo.

Luni
08-23-2007, 11:16 PM
Ive driven them both at the limit and assuming the MR2 is in the right hands (no offense to you burnyd of course, im not implying anything) it will do great on acceleration out of turns without losing the ass. You just have to transition in and hold your line properly and steer with your right foot and steering wheel.

Id assume an expert driver would be able to extract quicker times for the MR2 on both events. But Im only going off personal experience. I liked the alltrac, but it lacked a lot of the response the MR2 provides. MR2 handles better in good weather conditions hands down in my book.

burnyd
08-23-2007, 11:40 PM
^^ lol, I had a pretty good feel for that car.... its been drifted, road raced and autox.... I ran 13.60s on that car with that ct26 and only 13psi. And I ran damn good times road racing the car...... there not that great of autox cars...

Luni
08-24-2007, 12:03 AM
I disagree. Ive autoxed mine a couple times and I felt it stayed poised pretty well.

I have upgraded sway bar endlinks (the stock 93s vs the 91s) and I was on stock tires, and I didnt have any problems keeping the rear end in.

Dunno, theres a few turbo MR2s in the national spots. Not many tho. I dont think theres any alltracs there.

T-spoon
08-24-2007, 12:37 AM
Dunno, theres a few turbo MR2s in the national spots. Not many tho. I dont think theres any alltracs there.


Well, I'm sure there are more MR2s doing it period, so yeah. But suffice it to say, autox is so much a driver issue that it'd be pretty tough to say one way or the other which is a significantly better platform for that. Honestly I'd think as far as road racing goes the MR2 has a ton of advantages due to drivetrain layout.

Hiko
08-24-2007, 01:06 AM
Having driven neither car, take this with a grain of salt.

I rode in an MR2 at an autox a while back, and it had a larger turbo and accompanying mods in addition to some requisite suspension mods (this was SM2, BTW). It felt astoundingly poised, and had no trouble's or squirrliness around any of the tight corners.

Also, weight is a huge issue with autox, and the mr2 weighs 300-400 pounds less than an alltrac. As Conrad's sig states, "Autocrossing a 3300lb Alltrac is like driving an aquarium with 4 wheels". I also imagine this gives the mr2 a track advantage, too.

Cavanagh
08-24-2007, 01:44 AM
Well, Maybe for an NA mr2 it could be decent at autox... the problem I had was Id boost with that small JDM ct26 and it would just make thinks a bit difficult when it made more power around bends.... basicly what Im trying to say it a straight away with one or two bends with a Mr2 is great.... when you start taking a mr2 turbo into multiple bends and corners all at one time its going to wipe out... imho, but then again this was on my turbo mr2.... When I road raced my car I was beating alot of cars there out for the track rental....

I have not yet to autox or road race my st185... chances are ill do it here next season but considering the weight and the handleing I think it would do pretty good in autox... decent at road race... but the mr2 would definately be the better of the two as far as road race.
Thats when you then buy an N/A and pop in a V6 or BEAMS. :D

andy
08-24-2007, 02:37 AM
to put it this way, my 1986 corolla gts beat my friends turbo mr2 on the autox by 3 seconds. and he usually runs his mk1 mr2 and hangs right with me. Too much power at the worng time. not enough at the right. makes a slow lap time.

T-spoon
08-24-2007, 02:42 AM
to put it this way, my 1986 corolla gts beat my friends turbo mr2 on the autox by 3 seconds. and he usually runs his mk1 mr2 and hangs right with me. Too much power at the worng time. not enough at the right. makes a slow lap time.

Well, I don't know how much stock I'd put in times someone runs in a car they don't usually race though ;) If you're used to driving a MUCH lighter NA car, and drive the heavy turbo car the same way, probably won't have the same results.

cms-gt4
08-24-2007, 03:13 AM
I have driven both an mr2 with a 3rd gen and an alltrac with a 3rd gen. Both cars had good rubber on them, both had coilovers and both chasis had been stiffened up a bit.

As far as steering response and feedback goes, stock for stock, the mr2 wins hands down.

In stock form the alltrac is very numb. It is also very under tire'd.

The car changes a bit though with certain mods. More tire, especially in the front helps a lot. There is also much to be desired in the alignment department.

When I first got my swap running, I was a bit disapointed. Even with the wider tires. The car still pushed in turns. So, I looked at a few things. I adjusted the camber in the front, and the height all around which helped.I think most alltracs in the US came stock with an open rear dif. then I got a rear lsd. the car was changed very much so it became a different animal. Then I got a 320mm steering wheel. The rack is too long on the car, and it was softened way too much for production.
Even though the rack is not shorter now, it does take much less effort to get my wheels turned to an optimal direction and back. I always felt the steering was slow for the salomn, and now I am very impressed. The car gives my 350z track a runs for its money.

I would be hard pressed now, to say which car would be faster in an autox, the mr2 or my alltrac but I do think it would be a drivers race more so.

On that note though, even though the car is very tight, it is too tight for the road. I am trying to soften it up a little for daily driving, so its not so dangerous.

burnyd
08-24-2007, 04:43 AM
to put it this way, my 1986 corolla gts beat my friends turbo mr2 on the autox by 3 seconds. and he usually runs his mk1 mr2 and hangs right with me. Too much power at the worng time. not enough at the right. makes a slow lap time.


that is what I am trying to say you just worded it so much better.

mike325ci
08-24-2007, 04:01 PM
the original question was "in the twisties" -- not in a autox/track/rally/rallyx/etc situation... the "twisties" are public roads. i say the alltrac is a safer car to have fun in the twisties if you have to ask the question. an inexperienced or under-experienced driver in an MR2 can make some mistakes that will have him spin and smack the car easily compared to the sure-footed Celica.

but for the fun factor, nothing like a small 2-seater. that means the MKI MR2 or MKIII MR2 Spyder. at the expense of power, these little suckers are very fun in the "twisties."

CYA-- that said, you should not be pushing the cars to the limit on public roads and "twisties" as you endanger yourself, your car, and others that you share the road with. there are plenty of track/autox/rallyx/etc. events in your area i'm sure where you can do that. and then the above comments apply re: the differences between the two cars.

BlueDragon
08-24-2007, 06:43 PM
Owned both.... done it in both... Hard for me to decide myself... The Mr2 only drifts if you carry too much speed past the apex, and as long as you dont let off the gas suddonly you wont lose it just keep it steady on the gas and work your way back into a line that gives you traction. I have yet to drive a well setup alltrac though, and I had almost as much fun as the mr2, feeling a bit safer and more confident to push the limit in the alltrac. I guess when I get my build done I can let you know more.
Bottom line.. Toyota was the shit in early 90s, what happened? Ahhh anyways I agree for road situations and safety wise go for the Alltrac no doubt, if you can handle some raw conditions and situations maybe you can make use of the MR2....

cms-gt4
08-24-2007, 08:19 PM
I think there are two main difference in handling characteristics of the two.

MR2 is fast in, quick out.
Alltrac is quick in, fast out of a turn.

The alltrac gains grip in a turn, since the center diff is doing more work the longer it is under load, while mr2 has this snap oversteer issue.

Luni
08-24-2007, 08:42 PM
Mr2 doesnt generally have much problems ACCELERATING out of a turn.

The main beef with MR2s is people feel the car start to pivot on itself, it fishtails a little bit, and they lift their throttle. Then they snap oversteer.

Just gotta learn how to drive it, thats all.

Cavanagh
08-24-2007, 09:53 PM
I understand (mostly) how the mr2 seems to handle, but what is "snap" oversteer? Is it just oversteer that happens very suddenly?

mike325ci
08-25-2007, 12:44 AM
it is oversteer caused by driver error and inexperience. it like a double-edged sword. with the right driver it can be used to your advantage to "pivot" the car in tight corners. the beauty of an MR car. that and ability to acceralate out of a corner quicker.

http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/snapoversteer.htm

trah
08-25-2007, 05:08 AM
I had the mr2 turbo in a auto x and it blew balls but that was my experience. but if you upgrade suspension it handles better. but i drove my alltrac in auto x and i have better control with stock settings. I would still prefer Alltrac since I still have it WOOT WOOT :Ban1:

celica91gts
08-25-2007, 09:58 AM
Sorry if this is the rong spot, I hope yall dont mind if it is?

I was wanting to know what yall guys opinions were on the pros and cons of the Celica All Track vs. 93 Mr2 Turbo in the twisties. Which would yall say is better and in what ways and conditions. Maybe even GSX? Thanks Chris

YEAH TOUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELL YEAH FOR TOUGE.... umm no personal experience in driving a rwd car so i dont know. but i have driven my dads old subaru impretza rs 2.5. i gota say.... i love awd on mountain roads. i just feel freaking stable as hell. thats my in put. and that touge races are the best in the world. go wrc

Cavanagh
08-25-2007, 06:17 PM
it is oversteer caused by driver error and inexperience. it like a double-edged sword. with the right driver it can be used to your advantage to "pivot" the car in tight corners. the beauty of an MR car. that and ability to acceralate out of a corner quicker.

http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/snapoversteer.htm
Thanks!

KoreanJoey
08-26-2007, 07:28 AM
MR2 without a doubt... I've driven both ATs and MR2 but the MR2s lighter weight makes a HUGE difference. And yeah the Turbos biggest problem autoXing is... yeah unfair classing. If you want to compete get an NA.

T-spoon
08-27-2007, 05:13 AM
Also, my MKIII supra handles better through sweeping curves than either of my MKII Mr2s did, or the alltrac, or the Spyder. Exit speeds are MUCH higher, and it's far less frightening in rain than the MR2s. But anyway, that's a bit off topic.. I was just suprised to find it out.

Conrad_Turbo
08-27-2007, 03:47 PM
Stock vs stock (and same tires)...hands down the MR2 would win at autox and road racing in the dry. However in the wet the Alltrac would clean up quite well.

The Captain
08-27-2007, 04:14 PM
I agree with Luni, in the dry an MR2 has the tough to beat combo of light weight and quick turn in. In a situation where limited traction is an issue, an Alltrac will spank just about anything two wheel drive. The rear Whiteline sway bar completely changes the Alltrac's severe push problem for cheap. TEIN coilovers and 17" low profiles improve turn in tremendously. Plus you can bring your race tires and rims with you in the back of your Alltrac. Try that in an MR2!

I might be slightly biased :)

mike325ci
08-27-2007, 10:32 PM
Plus you can bring your race tires and rims with you in the back of your Alltrac. Try that in an MR2!

done! me, packed up for an out-of-town weekend autox:

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7234.jpg

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7237.jpg

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7235.jpg

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7238.jpg

:wiggle:

mike325ci
08-27-2007, 10:35 PM
actually, in your defense, you can't use your MR2 like a pickup truck to carry this much crap:

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7227.jpg

:p

The Captain
08-27-2007, 10:38 PM
LOL!!! Okay, you got me with that packed MR2! Of course you don't have room left over for a tooth brush.

KoreanJoey
08-28-2007, 02:07 AM
one tire behind the passenger seat, one in the front trunk, 2 in the passenger seat and my jack and tools in the trunk.

Doctor Jinxed
08-28-2007, 03:02 PM
Heeey, coupes can do that too. =P

I put these:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/940/img0007al7.jpg

Here:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6587/img0004hy4.jpg

Snug as a bug. :wiggle:

cms-gt4
08-28-2007, 04:42 PM
But can you stuff a whole alltrac rearend, gearbox/transfer, in an mr2.

They used to offer a bed liner in japan for the 165. Its was an insert that made the entire back of the car pretty much a truck bed.

VikingJZ
08-29-2007, 04:27 AM
Two things:

1.) Mike 325: I like your tire bags. The Tire Rack's headquarters are roughly a half hour from my house. While I've never had the time to get to it, they have a really nice road track out there that's open to the public. I also know the guy that designed their system that lets you see wheels on your type of car. He also runs their website.

2.) About the cars: I have never driven an All Trac or MR2 but would imagine both have their high and low points. The MR2 I would say may have a slight advantage over the Trac because it's so nimble. Yet, the AT is nimble.

I vote toss up/personal preference.

ToyotaSupra
09-07-2007, 10:31 AM
Hands down the MR2 would do better if it's the same driver... I know I can take turns way faster than my supra/starlet/cressida/celica.

KoreanJoey
09-07-2007, 11:03 AM
The rear Whiteline sway bar completely changes the Alltrac's severe push problem for cheap.

Again, changing classes to make the car unable to be competitive...

G Stock is the only class the AT has any chance. Otherwise it'd run DSP... screw that.

cms-gt4
09-07-2007, 03:10 PM
The alltrac is not a good car for class competition for autox. It needs too many things that push it out of a stock type class. Martin is the only one I have seen make one worthy in SM. I can't wait to see what he does with his at nationals next year.

KoreanJoey
09-07-2007, 04:15 PM
Nationals is this month for this year.

Hiko
09-07-2007, 09:29 PM
GS = Mini Cooper S => Alltrac losing

SM = BMW M3 => Alltrac losing

DSP = BMW E30, E36, E46 chassis => Alltrac losing

STX = WRX's and More M3's => Alltrac losing

This is nationally, BTW.

After looking through the 2006 Nationals results at Topeka, I'd say that SM is where the Alltrac has the best chance at being vaugely competitive. But it would take a great driver and some serious financial dedication. And you'd still have to expect something like 20th place in a field of around 30. Who knows? Maybe this Martin guy'll prove me wrong.

Either that, or an Alltrac might pull off something like 30th out of 40 in STX, again, with a great driver and car.

GS is, IMO, the least favorable to the Alltrac. The national field consists of almost all Cooper S's. And let's be honest, they are mis-classed in GS (should be BS!) and will hand even an amazing driver in an Alltrac his ass if driven by a competent driver.

Really, no offense to the Alltrac, but as Coldiron said, it is not a competitive car. At least as far as SCCA events go.

Rix86
09-07-2007, 11:12 PM
The Minis are being moved out of G Stock (at least that's the word down the grapevine)... that's the one hope for the ATs.

Oh yeah.. this is KoreanJoey BTW.

Hiko
09-07-2007, 11:27 PM
I've heard that too, but the SCCA is bad at ignoring mis-classed cars, e.g. the 89-91 Civic Si in STS, Shelby GT500 in FS, and the Mini Cooper S in GS. I think they figure they'd be pissing off a lot of people who went out of their way to buy competitive cars if they changed the rules after the fact.

Long way of my saying I don't think they will re-class the Mini's.

cms-gt4
09-08-2007, 05:42 AM
I am not sure how he will do. I hope he does well. He has been getting FTD in his region for a while. He is running next years nationals, he has more planned to the car.

He has 315s all around he is revamping his suspension again and made his own fiberglass RC hood. He has a done a decent bit to the car, and I expect more next year.

From what I understand Bob did reallly well in his alltrac at nationals years ago. I forget what class.

Here is Martins car.

Old 275s setup on the sportmax wheels.
http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/photos/Valent/Jan06/pic27%20(Medium).jpg

New 315s setup on the 5zigen.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/evilnissan/MOVAIRPORT051907/MOVAIRPORT017.jpg

Bob's alltrac.
http://img200.exs.cx/img200/7395/rgt0fs.jpg

MrWOT
09-08-2007, 06:57 AM
I had the opportunity to try a set of 17x10s on my 165 a while ago with spacers, and I also tried the 17x10s up front and 15x9 in the rear with a much narrower profile. It works very well given a stiff rear end and enough torque to move the beast. It had an aluminum diff bushing installed and that made a HUGE difference in response in the rear over even the poly.

RedCelicaTRD
09-13-2007, 05:50 PM
Wow, what a worthless thread. You guys fail to put the most important thing into this: driver. An Enzo will get beat by a metro given the right drivers. Buy what you want to drive and then learn how to drive it.

P.S. Bob Cummings did well at nationals in his All Trac back when the All Trac was in F Stock. If you look at some of the old pics he has FS on the side.

cms-gt4
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
Buy what you want to drive and then learn how to drive it.


Best point made in this thread.

I get my asses handed to me by a 90's impalla in autox when I drive my 350z. A lightly modified 99 mustang tends to win FTD in my region and a stock Miata on race tires, beats the shit out of most of us. Mind that he has won nationals couple of times though.

I think one of the best mods someone can do to their car is get some driving lessons from the Evo school or somewhere. 400 bucks on how to take your car to its limits will get you further than a set of coilovers.

KoreanJoey
09-13-2007, 07:49 PM
I run FSP. :)

RedCelicaTRD
09-15-2007, 08:48 PM
Well, yet again not having pics load at my work makes me look like a dumb ass. You can clearly see that Bob was running in FSP, not F stock.

KoreanJoey
09-18-2007, 08:36 AM
Wait... alltrac? I thought they ran DSP...

RedCelicaTRD
09-18-2007, 03:12 PM
That pics is from probably 6 years ago, when the AT was in FS and FSP. He did really well and then they moved the car up a class.

KoreanJoey
09-18-2007, 08:27 PM
shitty thing about running Nats... you do too well and they pwn you into a different class.

BlueDragon
09-22-2007, 02:16 AM
OH MY GOD!!!! THAT MOFO STOLE MY IDEA AND GAVE ME ZERO CREDIT.....
He has a peice of an invader body kit chopped off and replacing his ugly grill peice that is exactly what I did with my GT after i destroyed the kit into 100 peices... wow i need to start manufacturing this mod huh?

RedCelicaTRD
10-10-2007, 01:24 AM
I run FSP. :)
How do you run in FSP with an engine swap? Shouldnt that put you in street mod?

KoreanJoey
10-10-2007, 08:01 AM
Toyota manufactured engine, manufactured for the Celica, no change in induction. Updating/backdating rules apply.

hotrodhendrixJCH
10-10-2007, 02:37 PM
done! me, packed up for an out-of-town weekend autox:

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7234.jpg

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7237.jpg

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7235.jpg

http://www.mchoi.com/go/carpix/2007_06_08_various/images/DSCN7238.jpg

:wiggle:
.

Very Intesting... Can you fit a 3sgte long block into the trunk??? I dont think so. Now my 3000gt... I should have takin some pics.