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nuclearhappines
06-28-2007, 09:35 AM
See the pics...

2 Different Designs... I'm thinking of building one which is a combination of two...

Other things i've heard to work

Grounding throttle body bodies on drive by wire cars (especially since my intake manifold is plastic)
Grounding the back of the alternator body solidly to chassis ground ...

Maybe this is all snake oil, but it will cost barely anything as a DIY...

Details:

25 volt capacitors , 105* C, Low ESR preferred (Aluminum Electrolytic)

Typical values

4700 uF
2200 uF
1000 uF
470 uF

15Amp fuse for security

The other setup is supposedly trying to pickup RF Interference and 'subtract' it out of the system ground... if i understand it correctly...

Conrad_Turbo
06-28-2007, 05:24 PM
Lol I like the inside shot. :laugh:

I worked for a large company designing wiring harnesses for vairous types of machines...some of those grounding kits would help in some areas, but a lot are not necessary at all. All it takes is a look at a wiring diagram of the car, if the grounds are tied inside of the harness (which is how I did all my designs) then there is absolutely no need for a redundant external ground system. Adding capacitors to smooth out the power supply is a good idea, however the only benefit would be when the defrost wires came on the headlights didn't dim for a second, or when an aftermarket sterio is going the faceplace won't dim during high volumes. If the capacitor system was used to protect the electronics on the car, then it's redundant since 99.9% of mass produced quality electronics have filtering circuits inside which are designed to endure the automotive environment.

nuclearhappines
06-28-2007, 07:18 PM
You know the worst part for me conrad is that i'm supposed to be able to rationally analyze this (given my education) and I can't really make my mind up.

I've seen my cousin's supra, on an empty channel/unconnected wire of an SAFC pick up 0.3 volts of 'noise' on a WOT ... where in the AFC view mode, say you have a Karman car and you're logging map, carmann, rpm, knock.... you will see MAP move up from 0.0 volts up to 0.3 or even 0.4 volts as he goes from 0 to redline. So that has to do with the grounding side of things (noise floor i guess)

Then on other cars people have reported with DIY and brand name grounding kits an improve in voltage from 13.x to 14.x volts, one even from 12.5 volts (he had an underdrive pulley and a big system, to 13.2 volts) ... So that's talking about having 10% more voltage available to your ignition circuit and your fuel injection drive circuits, and your throttle looking like 10% higher throttle ... and a combination of other things where it is 'plausable' that a 10% increase in voltage could possibly do something.


On the rebuttal, the supra was an electrical mess and was touched by more psuedo mechanics than I care to think of so having a ruined grounding system is possible the cause of the noise rather than the need for extra grounding ... and as far as the supply goes i think for a car to be running that low a voltage (12.5...etc) with the alternator on is a sign of a bad electrical system to start with (maybe some of the alternator rectifier diodes are blown and you're getting for example 2 phases of a 3 phase AC signal converted to DC causing you to see low voltage at the battery)...

I agree with you that the capacitors will ONLY be a help on transients ... but I'm leaning towards saying that shifting an automatic tranny and jumping on the throttle will cause similar transients ...

I know on some standalones you have a voltage compensation curve for fuel injection

For example at 15 volts your IDC would come out of the standalone as 55% IDC
at 13 volts , after compensation the standalone would spit out something like 60% IDC. The amount of fuel desired to be injected in cc/min is the same... it's just that a lowre operating voltage will increase injector ON delay time and the mixture will sway a bit with the decreased voltage.

So if my ECU has a voltage compensation, then the caps are pointless on that front.

Then there's ignition... and is there a timing compensation for voltage drop?

Typically on dynos these things will show 2-3 hp gains. and smoother 'response'

I think the smoother response and more lively throttle comes from having a 10% higher reading come back from your TPS if your voltage is maintained stable at say 14.5 when you're mashing the pedal... so the ECU sees your TPS Signal rise faster and sooner into WOT mode.

I think any actual gain in HP comes from running your ignition and fuel injectors at a slightly higher voltage level... and so the 2-3 hp increase is inline with an ignition upgrade.

When i think of it this way I want to build a completely different circuit...

1- Drive ignition parts with a custom step up 16 or 18 volt regulator.
2- Reground some parts like the Throttle body and ignition grounds direct to the batter if like you said they aren't already directly grounded.
3- Make sure the voltage regulators driving the TPS or in my case the Drive by wire pickup under the pedal and the TPS at the TB , are driven from switched capacitor regulators , and not driven by linear regulators...so that it would be sure to have a maximum of 5 volts to work with under any supply (12-15v) condition ...

I think something like that would be a better 'box' to work with... and will show more consistent gains on different cars...

Conrad_Turbo
06-28-2007, 10:34 PM
Hey you're the electronics wizard, not me! :laugh:

If I were you I'd use an oscilloscope and see the electrical noise on a car, then try and reduce it as much within reason (cost) to benefit anything that doesn't have noise reduction circuitry in it. I know you'll need some fancy filter circuits since the electrical noise will vary throughout the rpm band and under different loads on the electrical system. As for how to figure that out without guessing...I have no idea! Definately not my forte.

However running a higher voltage to your coils is completely unnecessary UNLESS you are having a cylinder(s) with missing combusion cycles due to too large of a plug gap or due to lots of boost and/or nitrous. If the spark plug can ignite the air/fuel mixture then that's all the power it needs, increasing the voltage/current of the coil is just wasteful since it's been proven that the power output of a spark has no relation on power output of an engine (unless the cylinder(s) is missing combusion cycles).

Adding a ground strap to the TPS isn't really necessary since the TPS sensor would already have a ground wire in it that should be internally grounded within the harness. Right? If it wasn't then the car wouldn't work since the intake manifold is plastic.

Adding a grouding kit definately wouldn't hurt the car, however with the price of copper going up and such a lot of applications it just a waste of cash. However I am sure there are some idiots that designed electrical harnesses and the use of a grounding system will make up for their shortcuts in harness design.

FYI some of the pricey harnesses I designed were $800-900 (don't want to imagine how much a customer pays for it) and it was fully internal grounded, so any external grounding cables would have just been redundant and wasteful. However the same harness with external grounding cost around $600-700... So if companies cheap out they can definately have an inferior system which a grouding kit could improve upon, however companies have to keep in mind about reliability of having an internally grounded system. My harnesses were 80-90% internally grounded and only the unimportant items were externally grounded, in order to save costs.

turbo4ag
06-29-2007, 01:17 AM
As anyone who works with electrical connections in the automotive field. 300 millivolts is the standard noise unless everysingle connection was made of gold or platinum and soldered to everything it comes into contact with.

Even still I'd bet you'd get atleast 100 millivolt drop because of the soldered transistors in the SAFC itself.

nuclearhappines
06-30-2007, 06:24 PM
1st pic, NMS (Nuclear Motor Sports :p) DIY Voltage stabilizer plugged into the power socket (+12v).

2nd pic, NMS DIY Voltage stabilizer unplugged (holding charge for about 5 minutes whilst the LED drained the capacitors... which is great... i'm glad i put the LED in there because as soon as i unplugged it , and the LED stayed on, my first impulse of a thought was 'oh shit, charged capacitors... this is dangerous' ... then i remembered the LED as it started to dim and i felt happier that i wouldn't have to discharge it manually)...

Total cost is around 25 usd......

Conrad_Turbo
07-03-2007, 06:17 PM
As anyone who works with electrical connections in the automotive field. 300 millivolts is the standard noise unless everysingle connection was made of gold or platinum and soldered to everything it comes into contact with.

Even still I'd bet you'd get atleast 100 millivolt drop because of the soldered transistors in the SAFC itself.

True and which is why most quality harnesses are ultrasonically spliced for reliable splices (vibration resistance) and smaller voltage drops.

nuclearhappines
08-05-2007, 10:18 PM
Just got back to this project this week...

Soldered up the wires yesterday and I got some black RTV silicone to seal it up today... now it's water resistant so i can feel ok tossing it in the bay... below is the final picture... i might put it on this weekend... .

I looked at the car and I can see 4 different points where the harness is grounded to the chassis... one for the battery to chassis, one on each shock tower, and one on the valve cover (For the coil packs and sensors mostly)

If this 'stabilizer' doodad does in fact show any improved anything then i may just go ahead and try to ground those points together with supplimental grounding ...

It's one of those 'it can't hurt' type of projects and it costs nothing to DIY

nuclearhappines
08-06-2007, 03:21 PM
I just installed it 20 minutes ago and took it for a quick drive...

When I first started the car, my dash display was brighter... and the car was quieter.. i looked down at the tach and it was idling steadily at 600 rather than 750...

So I took it for a spin and there is definately something there. It's not huge but it's there... car is just a bit smoother and a bit more responsive... as far as actual power gain... I can feel that there is something there but it's not big by any means...

Glad i did this, but also glad i didn't pay 250 usd to do this...

Thumbs up for now... we'll see how it does on a cold start tomorrow morning .....

I'll keep you all updated ...

PhillyDRFT
08-06-2007, 06:02 PM
Very awesome nuke. Now make me one that doesn't fit a benz! ;)

j/k
I've been following this thread since you started but I'm still new to electrical so I kept my nose out of it lol.

nuclearhappines
08-06-2007, 06:12 PM
it's universal ... they don't really make anything that 'fits' the benz lol

T-spoon
08-06-2007, 11:29 PM
You know, with my poor, MUCH molested 20 year old wiring harness, this might be a useful thing for me to add. My voltage still drops down to about 13 when the car gets really hot under the hood, and can dip lower still when it's really hot and I stay on the brake for longer than a second or two. Nuke, you see any benefit for me trying it? If it would help, it'd be great, on the other hand, is it just a band-aid in my case?

PhillyDRFT
08-07-2007, 12:48 AM
Haha I was just kidding about the benz thing I figured a stabilizer is universal.

Any chance of a few more detailed pics. Top and bottom of the breadboard and maybe a detailed parts list? ya know for us newbish folk who don't know the difference between capacitors. :bigthumbu

nuclearhappines
08-07-2007, 06:00 AM
i drew something up in paint ...

T-Spoon, they say alot of this stuff is placebo .. then form the user feedback research i did on google ... one guy with an underdrive pulley was claiming that with the pulley his idle voltage had dropped sometimes as low as 12.8... with one of these (brand name one though) in place it was back up to high 13s...

alot of people talk about dimming lights ... i don't have that problem since i have xenon, so my lights are running a regulated voltage ... but if you have dimming lights with the brakes this helps... some people talk about cleaner bass ..

It's a very controversial mod... but it's cheap to try... if i were in the US i could've probably built this for 10 bux... we have at least a 100% mark up on components here just because the volume is really low (mostly students buying parts, not much repair going on and no manufacturing at all)...

This is one half of the project. The other half is that my car is in fact only chassis grounded and not harness grounded ... how do i know? well there aer a couple of power cables that come off my battery... but during the installation yesterday what i saw is that i only have 1 ground cable and that goes directly from the battery to the shock tower... so even on a 2005 benz the grounding is through the chassis ... so next i'm thinking of DIY Grounding kit...

i'd like other people to give it a shot to know that i'm not just imagining things :) :p ..since i don't have any actual measurements of anything

PhillyDRFT
08-07-2007, 06:13 AM
Thanks for the quick response nuke. It looks simpler than I was expecting. I was planning to reground everything in my 240 this week when I relocate the battery to the trunk. This looks like a really good addition to it.

I'm absolutely insane over trying to tweek this thing to have a clean idle. So I'm really looking forward to this project. I'm assuming it would be a 12v fuse? What size resistor did you use? and I don't really know how power caps work I'm assuming they come in different flavors also?

nuclearhappines
08-07-2007, 10:06 AM
capacitors are stated in teh first post, they are electrolytic capacitors, 24+ volts, and get the highest temperature rated ones you can find since this is going in the engine bay...

I saw people use 25 and 15 amp fuses... i'm using a 10 amp fuse ... it's just a safety. ..

a resistor in the 450-650 ohm range , 1/4 watt will do for a typical T1.5 led (just your average LED) ...actually some stores will give you an LED + Resistor 'package' for 12volts that you can just wire up directly... so you could use one of those...

the most important thing is to wire all the capacitors in the same polarity (+ to + to + to + to power supply +) ... if you reverse the polarity on an electrolytic capacitor it will blow up in 2-3 minutes (literally cause a small fire cracker like explosion of ugly stinky electrical goo)

T-spoon
08-07-2007, 03:41 PM
Excellent info, Nuke, I'm going to try this. I AM underdriven, and while there's a smaller pulley on the alternator to compensate, I also have two high powered fans running on the radiator and a sound system of moderate power. This morning it was dark driving to work so with headlights on I regularly dipped to 12.8-12.9. We should be able to get a direct measure of usefullness on mine at least.

PhillyDRFT
08-08-2007, 12:57 AM
Ahh I had a bit of a brain fart. I should have realized that the resistor was for the led power. But correct me if I'm wrong. Shouldn't it be before the led on the pos side not the negative?

also with the power caps I see you used 3 or 4 different types. Any reason for that and is there a series they should be wired up in?

any recommendation where to get good electronics parts cheap? I'm no whiz lol so I don't want to overspend on a bad product because I'm ignorant to the inner workings.

T-spoon
08-08-2007, 02:38 AM
I was gonna hit up radio shack when I do this. I'm sure there are better places, but ehhh. Interestingly enough, I turned on the AC, and even though the belt is too loose to really drive the compressor right now.. my voltage went UP with the AC on and blower going. I find that rather baffling. :wtf:

PhillyDRFT
08-08-2007, 02:53 AM
I dunno, loose belt sounds like it wouldn't be putting as much torque on the pully. So thats less load on the engine. and doesn't your idle go up when the AC is turned on? Or are we talking a huge jump in voltage?

I was going to hit up Radio shack too but I dunno how they are around you. But around here they charge around 5$ each for blue leds.

nuclearhappines
08-08-2007, 05:32 AM
>> Ahh I had a bit of a brain fart. I should have realized that the resistor was for the led power. But correct me if I'm wrong. Shouldn't it be before the led on the pos side not the negative?

Doesn't matter... I've done it both ways in different designs ... it's like putting an intake restrictor on a WRC car, it doesn't matter if you put it there before or after the MAF, the end result is only a restricted amount of air is allowed through...

>>also with the power caps I see you used 3 or 4 different types. Any reason for that and is there a series they should be wired up in?
Types ? you mean the blue ones ? that was the only color they had in that value...
I'm using a few different valued ones, honestly i don't know why... that's what the people i copied this from were using so i did that...

Everything is wired up in parallel except for the fuse
and the connection between the LED and it's resistor


>>any recommendation where to get good electronics parts cheap? I'm no whiz lol so I don't want to overspend on a bad product because I'm ignorant to the inner workings.

In saint louis we had a family owned electronics parts surplus store... they had all the basic components in stock plus some random junk like old lazer tubes and spare power bushings and 80's video games controllers... at that place things were like 10-15 cents a piece... look for something like that...

T-spoon
08-08-2007, 05:42 AM
I dunno, loose belt sounds like it wouldn't be putting as much torque on the pully. So thats less load on the engine. and doesn't your idle go up when the AC is turned on? Or are we talking a huge jump in voltage?

I was going to hit up Radio shack too but I dunno how they are around you. But around here they charge around 5$ each for blue leds.

Eh, I have a high idle anyway, but shouldn't matter on the freeway. It was a noticable jump in voltage, we're talking from 12.8-13.0 to 13.4. My voltage also dips crazily at WOT.

PhillyDRFT
08-09-2007, 05:12 AM
Heh so I was sniffing around ebay for some cheap capasitors in bulk. I usually get good deals on LED's off ebay. I got curious and found this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ECU-Chip-Voltage-Stabilizer-Mazda-Protege-Mx3-Mx6-Miata_W0QQitemZ150149186226QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3357 7QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm SURE it's a real c-west part lol.

I'm thinking about having a go at it for 20$ shipped. At the least if it's crap I can salvage the power caps inside and use those. What do you guys think?

T-spoon
08-09-2007, 05:18 AM
Heh so I was sniffing around ebay for some cheap capasitors in bulk. I usually get good deals on LED's off ebay. I got curious and found this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ECU-Chip-Voltage-Stabilizer-Mazda-Protege-Mx3-Mx6-Miata_W0QQitemZ150149186226QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3357 7QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm SURE it's a real c-west part lol.

I'm thinking about having a go at it for 20$ shipped. At the least if it's crap I can salvage the power caps inside and use those. What do you guys think?

Heh, for $20 shipped seems like maybe worth a go. I don't suppose there's any danger of it doing something horrible to your electrical system.

PhillyDRFT
08-09-2007, 05:28 AM
Yeah thats what I thought. for extra safety I could fuse the Pos line before hooking it up.

At worst I could scrap it for parts and have a comparason for Nukes design.

nuclearhappines
08-09-2007, 07:59 AM
Yeah I didn't have that route available to me ... so i had to build one...

nuclearhappines
06-24-2009, 02:20 PM
Something new in the works now... which includes:

1- Throttle enhancer
2- Voltage stabilizer
3- Intelligent timing controller (via controlling a IAT variable resistor)
4- Intelligent Automated Air Fuel Tuner (via modifying the MAP sensor signal on the fly for a target of around ~12:1 AFR)

All in one 2" by 2.5" box...

mar_phi6
06-24-2009, 10:57 PM
any updates

Shadowlife25
06-25-2009, 01:26 AM
Good stuff Nuke, keep us posted! :)

-Mario

nuclearhappines
06-25-2009, 03:02 PM
You can see below:

The output of the simulation ...

The x-axis is narrowband O2 voltage
The y-axis is MAP voltage

Once O2 voltage goes above 0.90 the MAP voltage is leaned out by up to -13%
Once O2 voltage goes below 0.80 the MAP voltage is richened by up to +13%

And in there you can see the same behavior for different starting points for MAP voltage (that's why there are so many lines running across) ...

The timing advance is connected to the same signal that controls the MAP correction, so over 0.90volts map voltage you get max timing advance (the IAT resistance gets modified on the fly)... as you come back off WOT the IAT resistance and timing goes back to normal.

The disadvantage of the IAT mod is that it makes you run rich all the time. by doing it this way (switching it on at WOT only AND checking the O2 voltage and trimming MAP) you can get an on the fly tunable car (more timing, flat A/F) that only happens at WOT... once your O2 voltage and map voltage drops back to cruising levels the ECU is 100% in control of your fueling.

That's the theory of it at least, no aftermarket company that I know of has attempted to do this...

If your O2 sensor fails , or your O2 wire to the Box gets disconnected, it will fail safe...

Your map will go +13% rich (no harm)
Your IAT will be unaltered

So it's really not an aggressive box either ...

That's the concept... need to get a prototype built, need a volunteer to install and dyno test it, and then we can look at mass production...

nuclearhappines
06-25-2009, 03:07 PM
At this point though, I'd have to say, I'm targeting only N/A cars as a start ... and possibly supercharged cars...

Turbo cars depending on the setup can be more 'delicate' when it comes to tuning so I don't want to sell this as an auto tuner for everything.

For N/A cars that typically bump up base timing and then setup an SAFC on the dyno to the tune of +15hp in midrange and +7hp at peak... this is exactly the device to do it, only you don't need to take it to a dyno .... and it will bring out the potential of all current and future bolt ons...

FourVeeSix
06-25-2009, 05:30 PM
Could this idea be used on the 3vz V6 thats running in my old alltrac?

Looking rather interesting to say the least! :)

nuclearhappines
06-25-2009, 05:48 PM
What type of sensors does the 3vz use ?

This is designed for a 0-5 Volt TPS - increasing
A negative temp coeffecient IAT (decreasing resistance with increasing temps)
A 0-5 Volt metering sensor (MAP, MAS, MAF) - increasing.
A 0-1 volt narrow band O2 sensor

Sensors that go from 5 to 0 would require a different design.
Psuedo wideband sensors that go from 0 to 2.5 volts or so require a different design.
And Positive Temp coeffeceint IAT's (increasing resistance with increasing temps) require a different design too...

Ultimately, there could be a few designs for a few groups of applications ... but for now this is what i'm working on ...

jaydog82
06-25-2009, 05:57 PM
i like it, how much will it cost?

nuclearhappines
06-26-2009, 02:15 AM
price will be competitive ... don't worry about that yet... it's ALOT to put in one box honestly...

Throttle maximizer : I bought my sprint booster for 250 dollars
Voltage stabilizer: built my own for around 15 dollars, these go for 60 to 150
Fuel controller: 190 + tuning

So that together is a 590 dollar product.... that is no where near my MSRP for sure... but I won't be giving these out at cost either...

It has to be viable for me to do it... and it has to be a good deal for you guys at the same time ... and that's what makes businesses not only start, but also have a chance and growing , and having a continuous R&D budget to keep bringing in new products...

FourVeeSix
06-26-2009, 10:17 AM
What type of sensors does the 3vz use ?

This is designed for a 0-5 Volt TPS - increasing
A negative temp coeffecient IAT (decreasing resistance with increasing temps)
A 0-5 Volt metering sensor (MAP, MAS, MAF) - increasing.
A 0-1 volt narrow band O2 sensor

Sensors that go from 5 to 0 would require a different design.
Psuedo wideband sensors that go from 0 to 2.5 volts or so require a different design.
And Positive Temp coeffeceint IAT's (increasing resistance with increasing temps) require a different design too...

Ultimately, there could be a few designs for a few groups of applications ... but for now this is what i'm working on ...

Thanks for that.

AFM is based on the old bosch D jetronic air flapper type as found in the GTE setup but it does run backwards iirc 5 to 0 volts.

TPS is as you stated and O2 sensor.

Need to dig into the IAT specs but off the top of my head im pretty sure its an NTC type.

Tony.

broderp
07-03-2009, 08:53 AM
What did you base the cap values on? Were you looking for a specific ripple voltage reduction?

I can see the merits in such a circuit, but as each car (our used cars) is different, then the smoothing required to achieve uiform results from one car to the next will also be unique. What works in your car may not work on mine.

This seems to work on the same principle of the car stereo guys who add a 1 farad cap to the high powered stereo to help smooth or maintain voltage during high amp loads.

I've built power supplies and the amount of calculatopn needed to determine ripple, rejection and fuse protection are some you can't just guess, unless you're a genious. :laugh:

Looks like a fun project.