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Unisoldier
05-18-2007, 01:14 PM
Did Toyota try to compete with themselves during the 90īs? The Celica and the MR2 is basicly the same car. Same apperance, same engine, gearbox - you name it.
Then we got the Supra and the Soarer, that got more powerfull engines than the first 2 - but still pretty much in the same segment of cars.
Why so many cars in the same segment? Seams like they have only been stealing market parts from each other.

Gary
05-18-2007, 02:04 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, MR2 is a "sport" car but Celica is a "sporty" car.
2 seater RWD and coupe FWD are apple and orange.
Sharing the same engine is to reduce R&D/manufacturing costs.
Supra is in another league.
Check out price of these cars and you will see they are marketed to different crowds.

RedPhoenix
05-18-2007, 04:04 PM
All a little different, but I see what your saying

MR2 = RWD 2 seater turbo 5 sp
Celica = AWD 4 seater turbo 5sp
SC300/400/Soarer - RWD I6, V8, or I6 2.5 TT
Supra - RWD I6 TT

all a little different in my eyes. But I can see what you mean. And look now, what sports car do they have left?

Unisoldier
05-18-2007, 06:43 PM
Yes, I do see the differences - I just thought they are too small. I can see that Celica were ment as a "sporty" car for common people. And I can see that Supra is more of a real streetcar for people with smaller dicks and larger wallets. But I cant really see what the MR2 added that the supra didnt have. Supra maybe was a little more expensive but when it comes to performance Im not sure theres a big difference between the Supra and an MR2 Turbo. The Soarer i figure was ment for autobahn/fast highways but it should have been build larger with 4 seats and more space to compete with for instance Audi A8, BMW 750, Volvo s80. On the other hand Lexus (wich is owned by toyota) covered some of that market. Just some thoughts. As Redphoenix mentioned - its waaay too little today anyways.

geebes
05-18-2007, 06:45 PM
You should drive an Mr2 and you'll see why they made it! :hehe:

Unisoldier
05-18-2007, 09:17 PM
I figured the MR2 would feels something like the celica, the same engine, size and so on. So in what ways is it different. Better handling? Lower weight? I guess there must be some reason they put the engine behind the driver. But more interesting: Whats the difference between the Supra and the MR2 turbo when it comes to driving it?

Ricksta
05-18-2007, 11:38 PM
I figured the MR2 would feels something like the celica, the same engine, size and so on. So in what ways is it different. Better handling? Lower weight? I guess there must be some reason they put the engine behind the driver. But more interesting: Whats the difference between the Supra and the MR2 turbo when it comes to driving it?

i hope you have a good reason to ask such a retarded question. i beleive you said "mr2's celicas and supras are all the same car" STFU! :fuckoff:

alltracs are slow as ass stock. they are very heavy because thier awd. it takes a lot more money to make an alltrac fast rather then an mr2 with it being so light. there are so many different variables on why alltrac is better or the mr2 is better and im not listing them...

supra is in a league of its own. no other car compares to the supra on toyotas line up. every toyota enthusiast dreams of owning one. they are pricey mofos and very pricey to mod. i hope you have deep pockets for either of the 3 cars....

Ricksta
05-18-2007, 11:40 PM
I figured the MR2 would feels something like the celica, the same engine, size and so on.

youve got to be joking... :slap:


http://i5.tinypic.com/4ml5f2x.gif

T-spoon
05-18-2007, 11:44 PM
I figured the MR2 would feels something like the celica, the same engine, size and so on. So in what ways is it different. Better handling? Lower weight? I guess there must be some reason they put the engine behind the driver. But more interesting: Whats the difference between the Supra and the MR2 turbo when it comes to driving it?

Heard of the Lotus Elise/Exige? That's why Toyota made the MR2. It may share an engine with the Celica, but that's about where the similarity ends. Being mid-engine RWD changed weight distribution completely. Ask what the difference is between a Lotus Elise (or even a porshe) and any little FWD sporty coupe and you'll start to understand what's different about a celica and MR2. Same goes for the difference in an MR2 and Supra. Supras are a classic RWD front engine sports car. Really they're just cheap supercars, while MR2s are like cheap Porshes. The Lexus SC or Toyota Soarer series share supra drivetrains, but they're built for luxery over pure performance, like a Mercedes AMG. All different classes for different things, some people that like one will like the other, but they are not filling the same market role.

As far as the AWD turbo Celica (GT4), it's a rally car, which is clearly a different role, and they fill whatever market niche any other production versio nof a rally car fills, which is to say, they last as long as the company is active in rally...

Luni
05-19-2007, 12:15 AM
No, MR2 and Celica FEEL different. Completely different.

celicaGT90_05
05-19-2007, 02:28 AM
well they also aren't the only company to do that kind of stuff, like Ford, back then the mustang and the ranger were practically the same vehicle with different bodies, honda had many different civic variations but all practically the same car. Basically they are just tryin to make a car for a variety of people but didn't want to spend extra money needlessly to make each vehicle an individual. Look at the situation today, GM for example has the chevy cobalt and the pontiac G6, and now the G5 which is basically another cobalt with pontiac badges, and why? Not 100% sure, but it will be more likely to get people to buy a GM product if they hate Chevy but like Pontiac, or vise versa

KoreanJoey
05-19-2007, 09:22 AM
Toyota still does it now... w/ less difference in the cars... look at the FJ Cruiser and the 4Runner... same car, different body. Camry/Solara (4door and 2door of same car) and the Highlander (same car different body, raised to be an "SUV"). And that's not even looking at the Lexus variant of the same cars.

Also, here's my breakdown of the different cars you described in a racing situation:

Celica (FWD): Quite front heavy, stock 5SFE or 4AFE(never driven a 4AFE or 7AFE celica). SLOW, somewhere in the 2600-2800lbs range... not truly light but not a lard ass either. Sporty but still lots and lots of understeer from FWD. Hard to alleviate those problems w/o spending lots of money (believe me on this one).

Celica (Alltrac): Heavy... in the 3400-3600lbs range. Stock 3SGTE, not really all that fast but a different feel to it. Handles kind of like a FWD Celica with maybe a little more balance, slides out more than pushes on pavement (although does exhibit some corner entry understeer). Very controllable in most slides (which it's prone to do because of the weight of the car)

MR2: 2600-2800lbs range, same weight (around) as the FWD Celica. The handling on these cars are pretty amazing. Amazing traction with fair weight distribution. Does, however have a problem (lessened in the 93+ MR2s but still exists) of lift throttle oversteer (when you come into a corner you HAVE to commit to it, not letting off the gas, not braking, but the MR2 will reward you for finding the limit of the car). Basically the fastest way to drive an MR2 is to use a LITTLE rotation, nothing requiring countersteering. The cars handles AMAZINGLY different from the FWD or the Alltrac Celicas. It's actually about as different as you can get in basic drivetrain layout/handling.

Supras: I6 N/A or Turbo. Never driven an N/A Supra (93+ NE ways). The turbos are... quite quick stock... 320hp. While not a huge number in comparison to some of the fast cars available but is an amazingly capable platform. Very good suspension stock (tuned by Lotus). The cars handle mostly like a good RWD car w/ a touch of corner entry understeer which is easily controlled via the throttle. Is a great combination of luxury and sportiness (think M3, which, in my view is a great comparison). If you think that the Supra is for people w/ small penis' and big wallets then you should think the same of M3s, Merc AMGs, Audi S series, and Jag R series.

Never driven a Soarer, but have driven the US SC400 (1UZFE 4.0L V8). Definitely more luxury than sports car, but is on a similar platform (maybe the same) as the Supra. Pretty heavy due to all the luxury stuff and the suspension is fairly compliant but still kind of sporty. More of the 330 or 335 class competitor than a sports car. Never raced one so I can't really tell you about how the car does at it's handling limits.

Murgatroy
05-19-2007, 11:08 AM
Heard of the Lotus Elise/Exige? That's why Toyota made the MR2. It may share an engine with the Celica, but that's about where the similarity ends. Being mid-engine RWD changed weight distribution completely. Ask what the difference is between a Lotus Elise (or even a porshe) and any little FWD sporty coupe and you'll start to understand what's different about a celica and MR2. Same goes for the difference in an MR2 and Supra. Supras are a classic RWD front engine sports car. Really they're just cheap supercars, while MR2s are like cheap Porshes. The Lexus SC or Toyota Soarer series share supra drivetrains, but they're built for luxery over pure performance, like a Mercedes AMG. All different classes for different things, some people that like one will like the other, but they are not filling the same market role.

As far as the AWD turbo Celica (GT4), it's a rally car, which is clearly a different role, and they fill whatever market niche any other production versio nof a rally car fills, which is to say, they last as long as the company is active in rally...
Thank you. I don't have to type a lot, and you were more polite than I could be right now. I had a bad night. ;)

To the OP,

The cars share engines because, as mentioned, it cuts down on R&D.

None of the cars you mentioned are similar other than in the aspect they were manufactured by Toyota and were meant to appeal to the 'fast' lifestyle. Until recently Toyota did still try to be fast. Now they are different.

The cars all share a similar body design. Not chassis, but body styling. Swoopy, big headlights/flip ups. Low slung. It is something that Ford and Chevy and Mopar have had for a while. It is called Brand Styling. It makes the Manufacturer's vehicles look like family. If you see a 1964 Mustang and a 2005 Mustang, you would see the body resemblance. Toyota doesn't have that in the American market.

To any driver, the distinctions between FWD, AWD, RWD and Mid Engine RWD would provide enough distinction to assume the cars were in fact different.

Unisoldier
05-19-2007, 12:17 PM
Got a better clue now how things are. If Ive had the possibility to drive them all I would certanly be able to tell the differences, but I havnt so just had to ask. I relize that this lineups in the 90s covered all type of customers pretty well. Celica - the avarage sporty car for most people - and also to have a good rally-car to compete with. MR2 - the car for twisty and narrow roads. Supra - the street racer. And finaly the luxurious Soarer. Hope I got all of this right.

andy
05-19-2007, 04:13 PM
i hope you have a good reason to ask such a retarded question. i beleive you said "mr2's celicas and supras are all the same car" STFU! :fuckoff:

alltracs are slow as ass stock. they are very heavy because thier awd. it takes a lot more money to make an alltrac fast rather then an mr2 with it being so light. there are so many different variables on why alltrac is better or the mr2 is better and im not listing them...

supra is in a league of its own. no other car compares to the supra on toyotas line up. every toyota enthusiast dreams of owning one. they are pricey mofos and very pricey to mod. i hope you have deep pockets for either of the 3 cars....

the mr2 isnt that light, at 2700lbs its as much as my 91 gt. its just better in everyway, except ability to work on the engine. that blows. and i will own a supra when i get outa school. !!!!!!!!!!!!! :wiggle: