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Yota Boy 08
04-15-2007, 07:56 PM
how would a 3sge (any generation) compare to a honda b series engine in terms of tunability and making naturally aspirated power? which one is better overall?

Melchior
04-15-2007, 09:33 PM
Every direct comparison detail aside, tuning a B series will always be a lot easier due to the massive support in aftermarket and even OEM parts. As a result, the tunability is almost incomparable, because it's not just how much the engine can give you/take safely, it's how much there is out there to put in it and how much work has been done making good upgardes.

Furthermore, there is a whole selection of "oem family upgrades" you can put in a B because Honda overlapped so many parts (e.g. pistons to bump compression, rods for strength, etc...) The paths have already been cleared, there are documented upgrade paths for literally everything you can think of. I've never owned a b-series, but they're suppose to be amazing to drive.

All of that said, engine to engine the 3s is very comparable, but more in the later generations. Having a displacement advantage over anything but a Frankenstein b20 block/whatever head can't be bad either, and quality wise the 3s is a little more robust than the b series, from what i've seen.

Yota Boy 08
04-16-2007, 12:28 AM
so which 3sge would be affordable, easiest to tune, and will be the best bang for your buck? i heard the 3rd gen ones are easy to find and have pretty decent power. i just wanna know what engine to use that i can keep naturally aspirated and make decent power on.

Cavanagh
04-16-2007, 03:23 AM
so which 3sge would be affordable, easiest to tune, and will be the best bang for your buck?
Of course, a Honda engine. There support like Melchior said is HUGE.

Yota Boy 08
04-16-2007, 03:41 AM
uh...which 3SGE, not which engine of the two. :lolhittin

Cavanagh
04-16-2007, 03:46 AM
Sorry, i got a little confused after this....

how would a 3sge (any generation) compare to a honda b series engine in terms of tunability and making naturally aspirated power? which one is better overall? :squint:

Shadowlife25
04-16-2007, 05:23 AM
Just asking others' opinion will give you an idea of what they like, but do your own research. Find out what it will cost, what kind of time will be involved, and what amount of custom fabrication (if any) is going to be needed. By the time you finish with that, you should have a good solid plan for the route you want to take.

Turbo FTW !!!

burnyd
04-16-2007, 05:31 AM
please do not do the following......

discrase and 3s motors by comparing them to honda B series.

If you want the NA tuning route toyota just isnt the way to go. There really isnt much you can find on this board as far as tuning 3sge motors..... I havent really seen much ethier, but the tuning just isnt there.

Melchior
04-16-2007, 07:10 AM
If you want the NA tuning route toyota just isnt the way to go.


Hi, i'm the 4a-ge. Nice to meet you. :P


Yota boy; go read the tech info writeups on toysport.com, this is just an excerpt:



For a milder set-ups the 3SGE may be adequate. Naturally aspirated the 3SGE is available from 140 to 200 HP. The 2nd generation (never imported to the US) produces 170 HP and are relatively cheap. Most parts for these engines are interchangeable with US engines, and is therefore easier to get parts for. The 3rd generation has 180 HP, and we support the unique parts for this engine. The 4th generation with VVTi has 200 HP, but is expensive and difficult to wire.

KoreanJoey
04-16-2007, 07:52 AM
Hi, i'm the 4a-ge. Nice to meet you. :P

BINGO. You're stupid sometimes Dan...

And as to making power with the 3SGE it is very doable. The main problem is sourcing parts locally/nationally. There are a TON of parts available for the 3SGE it's just not usually available here. We are blessed, however, with a nation that did get these parts and SPEAKS ENGLISH! Britain. Go check out www.fensports.co.uk

What they have listed there is a lot less than what they can get/make. Great guys to converse w/ via email.

And as to toysport.com

go ahead and read their info but take everything with a grain of salt. They were one of the first to start modifying Toyotas a ways back but have had SERIOUS customer support/shipping/general issues. I'll never order anything from toysport unless I'm down there in California and I can walk out with it. Over the phone or VIA email be ready for a long haul if you deal with them.

I've got a Gen 3 3SGE right now and I have to tell you, it makes me smile, but it also makes me sad sometimes in comparison to the 3SGTEs because... well, our cars, while not portly, aren't light. And without the turbo it suffers in low end torque. But it's a trade off for throttle response, which I love. Nevertheless in comparison to my old 5SFE... it's another world.

Melchior
04-16-2007, 04:33 PM
And as to toysport.com

go ahead and read their info but take everything with a grain of salt. They were one of the first to start modifying Toyotas a ways back but have had SERIOUS customer support/shipping/general issues.


/signed

I use their site as a reference only, i tried contacting them for some info when was looking to put a 3sge into my 184 and there was no response ever on the phone, and their emails got bounced back.

burnyd
04-16-2007, 05:17 PM
Hi, i'm the 4a-ge. Nice to meet you. :P


Yota boy; go read the tech info writeups on toysport.com, this is just an excerpt:

hi my name is 3sgte.. I make twice the torque and almost twice the hp!

I ment 3sge, but the topic on the thread is 3sge.. nothing to do with A motors...

90CelicaST
04-16-2007, 05:54 PM
Hi, 3SGTE, I also realize that you are .4L larger than me. You also have a turbocharger. On the other hand, I have 3 intake valves per cylinder, and VariableValveTiming on my intake cam. My name is 20v Silvertop, and I am a 4A.

burnyd
04-16-2007, 05:55 PM
Hi, 3SGTE, I also realize that you are .8L larger than me. You also have a turbocharger. On the other hand, I have 3 intake valves per cylinder, and VariableValveTiming on my intake cam. My name is 20v Silvertop, and I am a 4A.

.8 larger lol?

2kSnakEater
04-16-2007, 06:04 PM
Hi im an LS1



/thread

2kSnakEater
04-16-2007, 06:07 PM
in all seriousness, 3sgte > *

Murgatroy
04-16-2007, 06:11 PM
It is 4 tenths a litre.

90CelicaST
04-16-2007, 06:23 PM
.8 larger lol?

It is 4 tenths a litre.

I realized that after I left school. Damn my math.:slap:

Murgatroy
04-16-2007, 06:26 PM
I just tell folks that since I was partially edumacated in the South, numbers aren't my strong point.

Melchior
04-16-2007, 10:43 PM
Hi im an LS1



/thread


I'm sorry, would should have specified.

We're only debating engine technology from THIS century:P

I'm kidding. We have to exclude you mr.ls1, or you'll crush us all with your torque.

Idiot Stick
04-16-2007, 11:49 PM
Don't worry, he wont get all the way down the track before it breaks, and needs a 3sgte to help move it out of the way of the other 3sgte's

Melchior
04-17-2007, 12:34 AM
Yeah, but he'd get down the track so fast...

Yota Boy 08
04-21-2007, 10:53 PM
this "people introducing themselves as engines" stuff is hilarious. :hehe: but thanks for all these facts and opinions. ill definitely take note of them.

Rix86
04-22-2007, 03:00 AM
Hi, 3SGTE, I also realize that you are .4L larger than me. You also have a turbocharger. On the other hand, I have 3 intake valves per cylinder, and VariableValveTiming on my intake cam. My name is 20v Silvertop, and I am a 4A.
AND my power rating is... uh... overrated.
My younger brother, the blacktop, kicks my ass all over the world.

KoreanJoey
04-22-2007, 11:50 AM
AND my power rating is... uh... overrated.
My younger brother, the blacktop, kicks my ass all over the world.
:duh: :owned: :stupid: :ohyeah:

tuner_in_training
04-23-2007, 07:11 AM
correct me if im wrong... im kinda new but

this thread was about NA tuning so 3SGTE=out of the question

LS1=small block V8
V8 vs I4 = no comparison

so the real comparison here is 3SGE against 4AGE... im thinkin 4AGE but i just started readin the threads on this site and i still got a lot to learn so i dont really know

Melchior
04-23-2007, 04:19 PM
Actually the real question was 3sge vs b16, but that got lost quickly.

The answer was basically, they're both pretty equal engines in terms of strength, output, quality, etc... but the b16 will be "better" in the sense that there is so much more support for it. Personally, if I was to pick an N/A engine, I probably would pick a 3rd generation 3sge; but I like to be different.

KoreanJoey
04-23-2007, 08:09 PM
Actually the real question was 3sge vs b16, but that got lost quickly.

The answer was basically, they're both pretty equal engines in terms of strength, output, quality, etc... but the b16 will be "better" in the sense that there is so much more support for it. Personally, if I was to pick an N/A engine, I probably would pick a 3rd generation 3sge; but I like to be different.

No, you'd just be copying me :)

ciento44
04-23-2007, 09:38 PM
Actually the real question was 3sge vs b16, but that got lost quickly.

The answer was basically, they're both pretty equal engines in terms of strength, output, quality, etc... but the b16 will be "better" in the sense that there is so much more support for it. Personally, if I was to pick an N/A engine, I probably would pick a 3rd generation 3sge; but I like to be different.

With you, but comparing a 3sge to a B16 isn't fair to the honda.

Comparing it to a B18C5 would be a bit better. If we want to compare like displacements, then we're looking at a B20 bottom end (out of CRX) with a B16 head. I have a buddy that put down 250+ whp on an n/a B20 Vtec, and it actually put down some decent torque, too.

Now that being said, i know for a fact that people have put down 275whp or around there on a 3sge out of the altezza or whatever it was overseas. Mainly TRD parts. There was a thread on it over in the n/a tuning forum.

It's pretty comparable. Honda will be cheaper, and way easier to do in the US.

Cavanagh
04-23-2007, 09:58 PM
Actually the real question was 3sge vs b16, but that got lost quickly.
No, no accordingy to him its not... i dont know why, i tried to answer it, and then he he changed what he said and tried to say he was comparing 3sges against 3sges. The thread makes no sense.

Cavanagh
04-23-2007, 09:59 PM
how would a 3sge (any generation) compare to a honda b series engine in terms of tunability and making naturally aspirated power? which one is better overall?
He told me thats not what he meant... :wtf:

donteatbugs
04-23-2007, 10:14 PM
hi, im a beams 3sge, i make lots of power but im hard to find and even harder to install, but once you get me running you will love me.

DarkSideCelica
04-23-2007, 11:36 PM
Comparing it to a B18C5 would be a bit better. If we want to compare like displacements, then we're looking at a B20 bottom end (out of CRX) with a B16 head.

B20 is out of a CRV :lolhittin

ciento44
04-24-2007, 12:27 AM
B20 is out of a CRV :lolhittin

Typo. Good catch!

Or maybe it was just a freudian slip about my 'rex? :p

Yota Boy 08
04-27-2007, 12:35 AM
No, no accordingy to him its not... i dont know why, i tried to answer it, and then he he changed what he said and tried to say he was comparing 3sges against 3sges. The thread makes no sense.

when i was comparing 3sges to 3sges, that was just me asking a follow up question. sorry about the miscommunication. :lolhittin

andy
04-27-2007, 05:04 AM
hi, im a beams 3sge, i make lots of power but im hard to find and even harder to install, but once you get me running you will love me.

hi, im the evil twin 4age formula atlantic, I can be bought for 30,000 from a professional Japanese builder. And have 240ish n/a hp. and rev upwards of 11k. :thefinger

Yota Boy 08
04-27-2007, 10:20 PM
shyt i didnt know formula atlantic 4ages make that much hp. and so high in the rpms. that must sound amazinng.