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View Full Version : Possible blasphemy... just curious.



PhillyDRFT
03-21-2007, 05:26 AM
So as I keep kicking around idea's for the shell of a GT I have siting in my driveway. I'm waiting on the junk yard to come pickup whats left of my coupe. It stands as 1 KA24DE, 2 5sfe's (one with a broken rod) and a spare GT shell.

Since the KA24DE came transverse in the Sentra I'm kicking around the idea of getting a front clip (about 3-500$) from a local junk yard and maybe swapping it in once my garage is empty, It's not my DD anymore so I have all the time in the world to swap it.

I know i'll probly need custom length output shafts for the transmission unless I could get lucky and a combination of the two would work. and I'm not quite sure about the transmission placement. The only reason this came to mind is because having my 5s siting nexto my spare KA there isn't much of a size difference. I figure swaping in the 3sgte gets me 200hp but I would still have the s53 transmission that doesn't have a common opinion of stability under the longtime stress of the 3sgte. It's lasted forever for some people, broke in a week for others.

So pluses,
2.4l
ability to hit 200whp for around 800$
stronger transmission
Timing chain instead of a belt. (this is also up to preference)

Minuses
New engine mount placements
Wiring up the stock gauges and harness to accept the KA ECU
Possible transmission woes.
getting shit for having a nissan engine in a Toyota

My other idea is to finish the celica, put a rebuilt 5s back in it, sell it and buy a 6th gen.

I'm just looking to see if my idea holds water or if it's half baked?

grayscale
03-21-2007, 08:33 AM
HERETIC!!

Cavanagh
03-21-2007, 02:42 PM
I think it would be pretty cool, just cause its different. And you'll be able to make made HP with half the money it takes for a 3SGTE.

cms-gt4
03-21-2007, 03:00 PM
I would rather see you spend more $$, and make it rwd then install the nissan engine.

PhillyDRFT
03-21-2007, 03:50 PM
I would rather see you spend more $$, and make it rwd then install the nissan engine.

I don't really have a reason to need the RWD in my celica, yeah it would be cool but It's more feasible to buy a 1-3rd gen or convert an alltrac. Converting it to RWD woulden't even get that much attention. the only reason im kicking the idea around is because with a KA I could easily match the power output of a 3sgte swap for a bit cheaper, just a lot more work. I already have a 240 thats RWD and I miss my celica in the snow/rain lol.

Dr Tweak
03-22-2007, 05:05 PM
I doubt it would be cheaper than a 3SGTE in the long run.

That said, I can wire it up for you, if you decide to do it.

-Doc

PhillyDRFT
03-22-2007, 05:33 PM
I doubt it would be cheaper than a 3SGTE in the long run.

That said, I can wire it up for you, if you decide to do it.

-Doc

Thanks for the reply Tweak, havent seen you around in a wile.

I'll borderline it price wise with a 3sgte swap then, but it still gets rid of the s53 trans so that means no hybrid mr2/at transmissions, no dealing with changing lines on the mr2 trans, and no searching for a camry 5speed.

also with all the mixed opinions of the 3sgte as a power plant in non stock form, I'm not too sure if i'll be happy with it in the long run. It's all just food for thought, I'm trying to think outside of the box since we really dont have any "cheap" power options like a lot of other platforms got.

I would like to see more 5sge projects poping up we even have a pretty good start to a write up for one but it's just not happening.

Azzazzyn
03-22-2007, 06:00 PM
in the long run, i think it'd be a helluva lot cheaper.The ka adapts to mods better and you can push more power for alot less money. I know there are a good few 9 second ka's out there.

burnyd
03-22-2007, 06:02 PM
your going to have much more into it than that even if you do it yourself.

PhillyDRFT
03-22-2007, 06:52 PM
in the long run, i think it'd be a helluva lot cheaper.The ka adapts to mods better and you can push more power for alot less money. I know there are a good few 9 second ka's out there.

Exactly my point, and it also comes transverse so you wouldent have to deal with adding extra mounts to the block to mount it sideways. My main concerns are the output shafts, and basic engine bay layout. If an entire sentra front clip costs me 300$ from a junkyard around here. compared to a 3sgte swap thats for the sake of argument say 1500$ .. that still leaves me with 1200$ for extras.. on parts cost alone. not even mentioning any extras like oil lines, special output shafts, engine mounts, wiring, gagues ect... I'm in no way saying it will be DIRT cheap at first or a weekend swap but neither was the 3sgte when everyone started swapping them.

andy
03-23-2007, 02:12 AM
do it, be differnt, as long as its not a honda engine im cool with it.

PhillyDRFT
03-23-2007, 03:39 AM
do it, be differnt, as long as its not a honda engine im cool with it.

I probly will go through it as long as I can map out most of the problems I'll run into before I go about buying parts, I'm waiting on some measurements of the sentra KA. I'll ither goto the junkyard and get them myself or try and get someone on NICO to do the work for me lol.

My main concerns are keeping AC, running the heater core lines, clearance between the header and radiator because it's pretty tight in the sentra, and the size between strut towers once Ive included the transverse transmission of the KA. It will be a long term project for me if I decide it's feasible. I know it already. I'll keep an update once I get some measurements and talk to some people more experienced with hybrid swaps than I am.

Hiko
03-23-2007, 04:02 AM
The main thing I'd be worried about (assuming everything fits) would be getting axles the right length/spline. I have no idea how much custom ones would cost.

I'll be watching this project if it starts to come through. I'd never own a mutt, but I don't mind them either. Good luck!

PhillyDRFT
03-23-2007, 04:15 AM
The main thing I'd be worried about (assuming everything fits) would be getting axles the right length/spline. I have no idea how much custom ones would cost.

I'll be watching this project if it starts to come through. I'd never own a mutt, but I don't mind them either. Good luck!

Yeah I mentioned the output shafts but they can be "easily" fixed by getting custom ones, not a project halting problem like radiator/header clearance would be.

The only reason it has come to mind to make a hybrid is because of the success rate with toyota power plants, I'm very pleased by the 20v swaps but no one puts A series engines in GT's and ive already listed my gripes with the 3sgte swap. Id love to have a 3sgte but in it's AWD or MR2 form. We'll see once I have some more information on sizes and wiring.

Also funny side story to this was my other idea was to get a 77 fastback (because I love the look of them) and use a RWD KA24DET trying to make about 400whp. it would be about a $9,000 project. but well worth it imho. I dunno how often I would drag race it or just take it to shows lol. would definitely be a fun sunday driver.

PhillyDRFT
03-23-2007, 05:40 AM
New info = the FWD KA24DE came in altimas.. so i'm looking at an OBD2 engine most likely. being larger than the celica I believe worrys me a little about fitting the transmission with it. Theres a 77' Celica going locally for 500$ it's REALLY tempting to switch my project ideas...but i'm going to try and hop by the junkyard this week and get some measurements off of an altima.

andy
03-23-2007, 07:06 AM
whoa um, yeah get the 77

grayscale
03-23-2007, 08:37 AM
Fawk the Ka. get the '77 and and do an RB26 project in it :bigthumbu

Azzazzyn
03-23-2007, 12:22 PM
a fucvking rb26 clip costs upwards of 8k.

PhillyDRFT
03-23-2007, 03:02 PM
Fawk the Ka. get the '77 and and do an RB26 project in it :bigthumbu

would be awesome but the only thing I want any RB in is a R32 skyline lol. And the only problem with geting the 77' is I don't have room for anymore cars! lol, I have most of the driveway, the garage and one spot on the street where I park my 240, Then get it here from southern NY, If I can get the coupe out in time. I may be able to convince my family that having one more car in it's place wont make us look ghetto lol.

Im with Azz, RB clips are way overpriced to sell to tokyo drift fanboys.

grayscale
03-23-2007, 04:19 PM
No rb26, but a 20 and 25 halfcuts for a lot less and from one of the best importers-
http://www.jarcoinc.com/inventory/halfcuts/

grayscale
03-23-2007, 04:26 PM
I'm very pleased by the 20v swaps but no one puts A series engines in GT's
$ for hp isn't worth the trouble in our weight class. Original 4AGZE=145hp? Poo.


ive already listed my gripes with the 3sgte swap.
I'd like to read them, I read the opposite all the time but rarely can I find anyone pointing out the cons.

TheNefariousOne
03-23-2007, 05:01 PM
$ for hp isn't worth the trouble in our weight class. Original 4AGZE=145hp? Poo.

4age = cheap, mang (well depending on which iteration of it we're talking about)

Azzazzyn
03-24-2007, 01:53 AM
rb20 isn't worth it, you figure it pushes the same as an s13 sr redtop i think it is and the aftermarket for it is huge, in japan. You'd be better off payign $300 more for an sr clip with the 205 hp rating. I was throwing around the idea of dropping a 3sgte in my 240 to be different, and the power i want is only around 250 rwhp. It'd be nice to do, but my college brokeness has fudged all my plans.

PhillyDRFT
03-24-2007, 04:43 AM
Theres lots of great engines between toyota and nissan, it's just choosing the right one for the right project. I like 4age's for a few reasons, It's a very smooth and high revving engine. Not badly priced either. Ive been in a few 4age powered corollas and one in an ST. A fun little engine not a drag racing beast but mostlikely a blast for auto X.

With the 3sgte, I don't like that swapping it into a GT I have to deal with transmission swaps, since no one can give a direct answer to the power handling abilitys of the s53. Ive heard from more than one person that peaking over 300hp in a 3sgte stretches your reliability factor pretty far. Burnyd was one of the few that have said it before if he would like to elaborate further on the internals of the 3sgte, because as of late it's not really my specialty most of my 3sgte knowledge is from books, forums, websites and owner opinions. Ive been in a few MR2 turbos, never an alltrac though. I'm not saying it's a bad engine in any way but I would much rather have it on a nicer AWD or RWD platform then peg legging it on a fwd non-lsd swap. or have to source and install a MR2 turbo transmission. (i'm not positive if the corolla transmission ever got a factory LSD)

Ive got no gripes with any of the RB series engines. I don't really know how well I trust engine importers since in the silvia/240sx community lately there has been a "shortage" of sr20's since a lot of the great front clips have already been sold it's getting to bottom of the barrel unless you're upgrading to the blacktop s14 or even the much newer s15 sr20's. Ive seen a lot of bad sr's coming over lately and since there is no sister engine for the RB in america (to my knowledge) It sounds like a problem for what I'm looking for.

When thinking out of the box on swaps like this it really depends on the thought of "Your Car". How much do I have to spend? What don't I like about my car? What CAN be changed? I mean theres tons of great engines it all depends on your end goal. They were all made for a purpose. Ive even thought of swapping in a CA18DET.

One of the biggest problems I see whenever anyone swaps is overbuying. I wouldn't want to put in a higher end RB series engine unless i'm aiming at 700+whp. Will it get me to my lower HP goal? yes. Will it be more reliable? maybe. Will it cost more? most likely. Boils down to are my pockets as big as my balls and can I really do it?

All i'm looking for is reliable 200whp, in a bulletproof transmission that will take a beating every month or so when I take it to auto X or do time trials. A trip to WaWa or the beach. I think as compared to the 3sgte swap, in the long run It will fit my goals just fine.


I was throwing around the idea of dropping a 3sgte in my 240 to be different, and the power i want is only around 250 rwhp. It'd be nice to do, but my college brokeness has fudged all my plans.

I'm sure you already know the possibilitys of your KA if you're aiming for 250whp. a t3/t04e, any rom tune, 350/550cc injectors and SAFC can see you to that. It would be cool to see a 3sgte used in a FR platform.

Edit: I don't mean to sound like i'm the end all of knowledge these are just my personal opinions from what Ive learned and experienced. I appreciate the opinions of all of you and learn from you all daily. I won't put up a long e-fight if I'm wrong about anything.

grayscale
03-24-2007, 06:43 AM
Cool, thanks. I have also had a lot of "dilemas" with the trans. end of the 3sgte swap. 3sgte reliability has been proven on unmodified and very mildly modified levels and I feel that 225hp(+-), at least for some amount of time, is plenty for me. So from there I say-
s53-meh, even if it held up fine, it's still a fairly rough trans
AT-maybe, though I don't know much about it cause nobody seems to want to use it
mr2 w/lsd(e153?)-would be nice but what pain
s54-one I am considering but would like more input from 6gc owners

...or have to source and install a MR2 turbo transmission.
Pretty easy to find already mated to the engine. Looked at one a few days ago for $1600.

I don't really know how well I trust engine importers...
Have yet to hear of one bad thing from Jarco(thus the prices) and I also stood in front of a very nice low mileage sr20"bluebird" earlier this week at j-hot imports.

Anyway, sorry for the jack, just wanted to grab your opinion while I could.

PhillyDRFT
03-24-2007, 07:05 AM
Nah it's a pretty open ended thread...

I'm not saying there aren't any reputable importers but they have to get there stock from junkyards over seas. From what i've read the 3sgte and SR20det are the most imported engines from japan. So I would guess the best ones come over first. Not saying you're getting a bad one period, also there has been a huge influx of sr20's since drifting became a fad. so that also has an impression on my opinion of how many good sr's are left. I think you won't have a problem getting a great 3sgte from any reputable importer. just always keep in mind, it came from a junkyard for a reason so you can never be too careful.

1600$ is a huge budget for just a transmission. If things would go according to plan that could be my entire budget for a KA swap. IMHO I like the gearing of mr2 turbos I think it meshes very well with the 3sgte so If i was to swap it would be my transmission of choice. Ive also heard rumors about the s54 being more "reinforced" but no solid information about it. I know lagos has a 3sgte in his 6th gen but I have no idea if he is still on the s54 transmission. rather than get a s54 in my 5th gen I would rather sell it and swap the 3sgte into the 6gc, only because I like the look of them a little more.

grayscale
03-24-2007, 08:53 AM
Hrm, might have to poke Lagos for some info...

Azzazzyn
03-24-2007, 03:01 PM
I am quite aware of the potential of my KA for my goa, but its the strive to be different, even if only for a week :) If i didn't want boost so bad, i'd pick up a KA off zilvia for like $100 bucks, rebuild it and for about a grand i could more than likely get it near 200 n/a

PhillyDRFT
03-24-2007, 04:29 PM
I am quite aware of the potential of my KA for my goa, but its the strive to be different, even if only for a week :) If i didn't want boost so bad, i'd pick up a KA off zilvia for like $100 bucks, rebuild it and for about a grand i could more than likely get it near 200 n/a

higher CP, swapping in oem exhaust cams I think s13 exhaust cams for the s14?, Intake, header, exhaust, a good tune. you could probly hit 180whp. My only deal with the KA is how well it takes to boost.

Definitely a +1 to ya for being different. Id love to see a 3sgte swap in a 240. Even more than that. I would like to see an AWD 240 swap. I just have no idea how you would go about setting up the front suspension to incorporate an extra drive. Or what parts are interchangeable between skyline and s1X

Azzazzyn
03-25-2007, 12:13 AM
i looked into the awd 240 back when i first purchased the car.....and from what i was told, it'd cost me around 15k

PhillyDRFT
03-25-2007, 12:36 AM
lol 15,000$ sounds like way more money that it would take to do that. Maybe with dealer parts or a lot of auto cad.

But also to greyscale I think pressure 2 is using the s54 on his 5sfte and he's putting a decent amount of power thorough it so you might want to message him about it.

grayscale
03-25-2007, 08:54 AM
Okay, since you don't mind, and we're talking about this that and the other let me retract my previous staement about the 20v swaps. I said that I wasn't interested because of the numbers I have on those motors, but I now see that my info must be quite dated. I just got done reading info from Colosuss' 20v swap and he stated the 4age as 160hp. My old info said 112hp(yes I said old) on the 4age and 145hp on the 4agze. So I'm wondering what the hp is rated on a newer 4agze?

TheNefariousOne
03-26-2007, 01:25 AM
170 hp on the AE101 GZE

grayscale
03-26-2007, 02:11 AM
The poopercharger only added ten ponies over na form? I wonder how much more it could handle... I'm really interested since there is a possiblity of 6spd gearbox.

TheNefariousOne
03-26-2007, 02:35 AM
Well, the thing is, the ST/BT were 20 valve engines designed for NA performance. The GZE was always a 16 valver. What I'm not sure of is whether or not the GZE actually meets its reported numbers since the STs do not. I'm sure it's out there...

grayscale
03-26-2007, 09:17 AM
So an engine with the exact same code except for the charger(z) has a different head? strange.

PhillyDRFT
03-27-2007, 02:06 AM
So an engine with the exact same code except for the charger(z) has a different head? strange.

well it makes sense that they would change the head design to fit a forced induction application. It could be only a cam change or light change in the valve setup/angle

grayscale
03-27-2007, 04:26 AM
4age=20v----4agze=16v---=big difference.

TheNefariousOne
03-27-2007, 04:54 AM
It's not really that strange. Toyota did it with other engines too. The first one that comes to mind is the 3SGE BEAMS and the 3SGTE. One is turbo performance, the other N/A and they have different heads presumably (since the BEAMS has VVT-i and the 3SGTE does not). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

PhillyDRFT
03-27-2007, 06:51 PM
meh... I'm out. It's become blatantly obvious lately that I suck at teh car.

/quit

but for shits and giggles, any chance of swapping all of the SC parts to the freer flowing 20v? or am I missing big revisions? aside from engine management

shinrekka
05-24-2007, 12:15 AM
alright, i didnt feel like reading the rest of the posts. Once i read KA24DE, right there, its a bad idea. As a nissan guy myself, no its not easy to get 200hp all motor out of a ka24de, not 800$, think 4000$. Turboing it is going to cost more then 800$ especially if its front wheel drive. The nissan trannys are fine, however, none came LSD for the KA24DE. To this day people are still arguing if 200hp n/a is acheivable. Yes, they have a timing chain, but the guides are plastic and they deteriorate and f-up the engine. On my 240sx, the timing chain cost 1200$ in labor. Gonna be more for FWD, and if it hasnt been replaced, it will need to be sooner or later. The guides break apart and catch were the oil sprays up into the head and the head will get screwed up form no oil. I've had 4 240sx', a 90 300zx, 78 280z, and i know own a 91 nissan pickup, stay away from nissan, stick with toyota the best cars i've ever owned were and are toyota. If the celica came in a RWD formant with the engine transverse it would be the perfect car. From my experiance KA's are fun while they last. I was neck and neck with a 350z in my 240 and then a 7$ sensor went 3 months later and it started pissing oil everywere, i spun a bearing even before I knew what had happened. My other 240's were a different story. 5sfe > ka24de, sad for me to say but its true.

shinrekka
05-24-2007, 12:17 AM
i want to apologize for my numerous spelling errors, its been a long day.

Luni
05-24-2007, 01:01 AM
Cannon, you can use the 6 speed on a 7th gen GTS on an A series engine with minor modification also IIRC.

The 4 series motors are koo.

Check this out. 7A block, 20v head, GZE internals. 1.8 liter silvertop. :p

Put that sumbitch up on a 6 speed tranny, and vroom vroom. :)

ciento44
05-24-2007, 03:15 AM
I think i'd like to be the second person in this entire thread to argue that a KA24DE > 5sfe. :P

grayscale
05-24-2007, 12:25 PM
Cannon, you can use the 6 speed on a 7th gen GTS on an A series engine with minor modification also IIRC.

The 4 series motors are koo.

Check this out. 7A block, 20v head, GZE internals. 1.8 liter silvertop. :p

Put that sumbitch up on a 6 speed tranny, and vroom vroom. :)
I wonder what that combo might put out? Would be sick on an ae86, but would it be enough to haul my big fat-fatty GTS?

shinrekka
05-25-2007, 04:16 AM
ill never go back to nissan after owning a toyota. The only thing the 240 has on the celica is that its rwd.

PhillyDRFT
05-25-2007, 07:19 AM
Why was this thread dug up again?

I'm not going to argue the superiority of the ka24de / 5sfe. I never said NA power I said Reliable power. I already have a KA-T powered 240sx that hasn't given me a single problem (that wasn't brought on by myself or the toll time takes on a 16 year old car) You WILL not get 200+hp out of a 5sfe reliably.. will you get 200k+ on a stock 5s no matter how much you beat on it? yup, most likely it's a very will built engine. Does it take well to being modified? ask Pressure2 about that one.

You can turbocharge a ka24de for around 800$, reliability is questionable but it has been done. a small t25, 300zx/Cobra MAF, Safc, Eprom tune, FRP, and maybe even sr20 injectors if you feel like it. and you'll hit 200hp stock block. From there on reliability is in your safety mods and how well you've planned out your setup and tune.

My point was not to argue the difference of the engines, as for reliability in stock form the 5sfe has the ka24de under the table. If were discussing reliability under the added stress of FI it's a completely different story. I love my celica, don't get me wrong theres a reason I still have it sitting dead in my driveway.

There just has to be different options than 5sfte / 3sgte / 3sge for the GT Celicas. Someone needs to start thinking out of the box. I'm not down with the nay saying. I've since measured the transverse KA and in reference to the celica I believe it COULD fit. Custom drive shafts would have to be made, and new mounts welded in, most likely modifying the cross member to fit the new front and rear mounts.

The ka isn't as bad as you make it out to sound and toyota didn't build the 5s to be the keystone of there empire. They both are different engines that do different things.

shinrekka
05-26-2007, 03:09 AM
I know what your saying. on my SOHC KA i hit about 200hp to the wheels with a cheap turbo set up. The T25 is waaaayyyyy to small tho. The DOHC I left all motor but the cheapest i found to getting the timing chain done after the guides fell apart was 1200$ so that was the end of that. I moved on. The internals of KA's are geat, with a good tune I think the highest made so far on stock internals was something like 400hp.

More on the KA-T www.ka-t.org.

If I was going to swap in a non toyota motor into the celica, it was most likely be an SR20det. Or maybe an H22a.

PhillyDRFT
05-26-2007, 03:31 AM
The sr20det came transverse out of the bluebird but were not talking about a common junk yard engine. also I think a lot of odd pieces are in bad spots like alternator and power steering.

My idea on the KA was because it's VERY common, almost as common as the 5sfe. Goto any junkyard. theres going to be a KA there. People have hit over 500 on stock internals, Nowhere near reliably though. I wouldn't push it. The common census is 300-350 is time to upgrade the internals.

Nissan has stated the guides are useless and should be removed. You can do the job yourself for around 300$ in parts.

shinrekka
05-26-2007, 03:57 AM
I dunno man, i havnt been able to find a KA for my 240 is a junkyard :( Thats why I sold 2 of them. You cant rebuild a motor when a piston is dangling out the side.

But then again i would think it would be alot easier to find an altima in the junkyard then a 240. Must more common car.

To each his own tho, i've had some realy bad luck with nissan. Toyota so far, for me anyway, has been even better to me then any honda i've ever owned.

shinrekka
05-26-2007, 03:58 AM
i dunno why i wrote honda I ment nissan, but its true for honda as well.

PhillyDRFT
05-26-2007, 06:45 AM
Just as an update for everyone, I'm keeping the 5sfe in the celica mostly for the reason that I have 2 laying around. 2ndly I'm a little tired of the 5th gen and I will most likely be in the market for a 6th gen after I'm finished my GT. So we'll see how everything goes. I'll post up a thread about my progress soon. I haven't had a lot of free time so far I'm still pulling the engine and finishing odds and ends on the body work.