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CollapsedNut
12-28-2006, 10:09 PM
A friend of mine is wanting to get rid of his prelude because he keeps gettin speeding tickets...he offered to trade me it for my 93 wrangler so Im just wondering what you guys think...

Fuelish
12-28-2006, 10:36 PM
A friend of mine is wanting to get rid of his prelude because he keeps gettin speeding tickets...he offered to trade me it for my 93 wrangler so Im just wondering what you guys think... Ummmm, he'll likely be getting speeding tickets in a Wrangler, as well....... speeding is a function of the driver, not the vehicle. How do miles on the respective vehicles compare ? I'd prefer a Prelude to a Wrangler, but I'm not a Jeep/truck kind of person. Only you can answer this one for yourself, I'm afraid ;)

Hookecho
12-28-2006, 11:22 PM
they're fun cars to drive. which motor is in it? if it's the 2.3L si or 2.2 v-tech then i would trade. hell, even if it's the base s model i still would trade. i had a 97 wrangler myself and i didn't care for it.

T-spoon
12-28-2006, 11:26 PM
Your friend is silly, hasn't he heard, it's Celicas that "Looks fast" enough to get tickets sitting still :squint: :hehe:

ciento44
12-28-2006, 11:52 PM
I vote get the Prelude. If it's an H23, spray the snot out of it, and beat up on 3sgte swaps. :P

If it's H22a, then spray it or turbo it. :)

Those are some amazing engines in their own right.

CollapsedNut
12-29-2006, 01:06 AM
Im not sure which motor it is it doesnt have the lsd and it doesnt have flip up lights...could these motors really hold n2o? 90celicast told me it is a 2.3L so thats probably what it is

hobbie2k
12-29-2006, 01:29 AM
The H23A is still one fine motor, not up to the H22A when sheer speed is the goal, but it's torquey (for a Honda) and still very powerful for a sport compact from the early 90s. Also, they cling to their values like mad and a fairly tough.

Look up the values of both cars first, just to be sure you're not getting ripped off financially (though unless there is a huge mileage discrepancy I can't see it happening). Then check for general condition, they are tough cars, but they tend to be beaten on.

Assuming the car is in decent condition, I'd be all for it.

CollapsedNut
12-29-2006, 01:33 PM
the prelude has a body kit, but wasnt professionally installed so it has afew places where it needs work. It has a full exhaust and an intake kit.Nice set of wheels. I'll have to get front corner lights for it. Im sure the motor has been ran hard. prelude has about 160k while my jeep only has 140k but the jeep is gonna need more work than the prelude.

Hookecho
12-29-2006, 02:00 PM
get it

ciento44
12-29-2006, 08:11 PM
Im not sure which motor it is it doesnt have the lsd and it doesnt have flip up lights...could these motors really hold n2o? 90celicast told me it is a 2.3L so thats probably what it is

These motors LOVE Nitrous.

The H-series engines are great. Close-deck, and the H23 bottom end is strong as hell.

I know of at least two local ones running 150+ shots of nitrous.

One was an H22a with a 175 wet shot, auto with a custom stall converter, and that bastard was FAST. Sounded absolutely crazy on highway pulls. Like a NASCAR engine on crack.

Other was an H23 bottom end with an H22a head, 150 shot i think, and that was damn quick as well.

CollapsedNut
12-29-2006, 08:28 PM
Hum, sounds fun! Looks like next week I may be driving a prelude, just waitin on pops to ok the jeep trade cause the jeep is part his too lol

ciento44
12-29-2006, 08:34 PM
Another alternative, and probably won't break the bank.

H23 block with H22a head, and a turbo at relatively low boost 8-12psi. That'll net you well over 200whp, 12psi probably more like 240-250whp depending on turbo used. It'll take it on stock internals, assuming they're in good shape.

Nitrous is obviously cheaper though, and probably a little easier to deal with if done right.

Mister2T
12-29-2006, 09:14 PM
ah i would perfer the jeep over the prelude, you could go muddin in the jeep :)

2kSnakEater
12-29-2006, 09:15 PM
get the Prelude, sell the prelude, buy my GTS, do a 3sgte swap.

3sgte > any hundu motor.

2kSnakEater
12-29-2006, 09:16 PM
ah i would perfer the jeep over the prelude, you could go muddin in the jeep :)


his Jeep is the 4cyl version, he would be lucky to get over over 80mph on the highway, mudding is out of the question.

ciento44
12-29-2006, 09:25 PM
get the Prelude, sell the prelude, buy my GTS, do a 3sgte swap.

3sgte > any hundu motor.

Fanboy. :hehe:

I can think of multiple Honduh engines i would rather have than a 3sgte, but i would rather have the Celica than most Honduhs.

2kSnakEater
12-29-2006, 10:24 PM
The C32b is the only Honda engine I would rather have than the 3sgte.

DarkSideCelica
12-30-2006, 09:30 AM
If it's H22a, then spray it or turbo it. :)



u do know tht the H22 is really bad for boost rite? CR is too high for boost unless if u get lower compression cams... the H23 is a good motor too... non vtec, but good on boost... i'm actually doing a H23 head swap on my F23 (accord motor)

CollapsedNut
12-30-2006, 01:34 PM
his Jeep is the 4cyl version, he would be lucky to get over over 80mph on the highway, mudding is out of the question.

well...your right about the speed part but it actually does very well, that lil 2.5L has so much low end torque its crazy. Ive never had it ina situation where it needed more motor than it had to get out. The prelude is gonna be fun...skrew abuncha big turbo kits, Im just gonna spray it! It has plenty of power and with n2o itll have all I need.

2kSnakEater
12-30-2006, 04:07 PM
put a C32b in it!

hobbie2k
12-30-2006, 08:28 PM
put a C32b in it!

Might as well get an NSX for what that would cost... That Prelude shares it's engine bay with the 4th gen Accord. It wasn't until the 5th gen that a V6 was put into the Accord and even then they had to stretch the bay for the V6 models to make room.

It would take a lot of custom fab to make it work. For the same cost you could probably get a used NSX, or a worked H22a with full chassis and suspension upgrades.

ciento44
12-31-2006, 07:24 AM
u do know tht the H22 is really bad for boost rite? CR is too high for boost unless if u get lower compression cams... the H23 is a good motor too... non vtec, but good on boost... i'm actually doing a H23 head swap on my F23 (accord motor)

H22a is a fine motor for boost. Close-deck, strong block, and sure, the compression ratio is high, but it's definitely still within the realm of possibility.

It's not something that i would push a LOT of boost on, but 10+ psi on a t3/t4 hybrid is extremely likely territory on a healthy block with a good tune. That kind of setup would be nothing to sneeze at, either.

People successfully run Type-R motors under low-pressure boost 7-10psi with no problems, and that's quite a bit higher compression than an H22a.

I used to think the same thing as you, in all honesty. But, boosting Hondas is like a plague out here, and i've seen pretty much everything boosted, and nobody seems to go as far to build the block, just boosting on stock internals, and H22a seems to hold up just as well as B-series.

Idiot Stick
12-31-2006, 01:47 PM
Locally we have a place called "JD Racing", and theyve pushed 450 WHP out of an H22A with Stock internals. Details, Im not sure. But they've done it.

They also have a dragster hatch, running close to 600whp in a LS/VTEC I think. So it can be done.

Theres also a local prelude SRV (Well hes in Alberta now, car was local), that looked like sex. Unforunately all my pictures of his car are on my work computer, so I'l have to post them on tuesday.

If i couldnt get a Celica, or an MR2, Id be going for a 92-96 prelude for sure. They are (IMO) equally as sexy, and have a bit of power to back it up too.

Cavanagh
01-02-2007, 02:04 AM
get the Prelude, sell the prelude, buy my GTS, do a 3sgte swap.

3sgte > any hundu motor.
:wtf: :brick: :lolhittin

ANY honda motor? And are you talking stock or modded.

Idiot Stick
01-02-2007, 06:31 PM
I knew i'd forget about this topic. here are the pics of this buddies prelude. If I were to buy a prelude this would be the look I'd shoot for, IMO.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2884/x1pbglkvql4bujgoham0jemdg6.th.jpg (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x1pbglkvql4bujgoham0jemdg6.jpg)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7871/x1pbglkvql4bujgoham0jemlf9.th.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x1pbglkvql4bujgoham0jemlf9.jpg)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1/x1pbglkvql4bujgoham0jemev7.th.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x1pbglkvql4bujgoham0jemev7.jpg)

ciento44
01-02-2007, 06:33 PM
Not too bad. Not a fan of the hood, but overall, looks pretty damn mean. :)

Idiot Stick
01-02-2007, 06:58 PM
I personally think the hood makes it.

But im a fan of some rice. :)

trah
01-02-2007, 09:06 PM
h23 is alright h22 is better go NA no need for n20 like other people on the thread are talking about. if it is the base model you can get a DSM turbo for 100-200 bucks (manifold, turbo, o2 housing) and boost it 10 psi stock internals and nothing will go wrong. I had 4 motors in my accord. JDM h22 blown due to running 4 psi safely. USDM h23 blown because running 60 shot of nos heh. F22b (dohc non vtec) car got stolen and took motor =(. and now I have a f22a1 (stock SOHC motor just like 92-96 prelude base model motor) running 10psi stock internals and still running strong. These Honda motors don't like N20 since its aluminum block. the 90-93 accord motors are cast iron which is stronger then the prelude motors. but whatever path you take just be sure you know what ur doing and to the looks of it. talking about exhaust and ect... you might not know. so be careful becuse i have 210k on my f22a1 motor and im running 10 psi boost using a DSM setup 450cc blue tops chipped ecu and everything sooo back to the question at hand get the prelude if its in great shape make sure that you dont have to do any work to it. like timing and etc.... maybe the reason he wants to trade is that its about to die lol

trah
01-02-2007, 09:12 PM
Locally we have a place called "JD Racing", and theyve pushed 450 WHP out of an H22A with Stock internals. Details, Im not sure. But they've done it.

They also have a dragster hatch, running close to 600whp in a LS/VTEC I think. So it can be done.

Theres also a local prelude SRV (Well hes in Alberta now, car was local), that looked like sex. Unforunately all my pictures of his car are on my work computer, so I'l have to post them on tuesday.

If i couldnt get a Celica, or an MR2, Id be going for a 92-96 prelude for sure. They are (IMO) equally as sexy, and have a bit of power to back it up too.


I call bull Sh!T with that quote. H22a stock internals 450 WHP NA BS. to reach that high NA you need 272 regrinds and etc and bore everything out. no way in hell there is a H22a Stock internals running 450 WHP. My Jdm H22a with JDM LSD tranny hit no where near that numbers with 272 regrinds high compression pistons and 4 psi turbo. Dynoed I hit about 280HP and thats using a a p28ecu taht I chipped running Uberdata.

Idiot Stick
01-02-2007, 10:07 PM
Did I say NA? They used good quality (Unsure of size/trim's) turbo setups, which is what i meant by "details unknown"

COLDAX
01-02-2007, 10:44 PM
if you trade I bet your insurance goes up. maybe you dont care just thought i'd mention.

hobbie2k
01-03-2007, 03:12 AM
I knew i'd forget about this topic. here are the pics of this buddies prelude. If I were to buy a prelude this would be the look I'd shoot for, IMO.

I like it, the hood doesn't bother me, as long there's a reason for the vent, as long as it has the guts to match the looks. I could do without the eyelids, though. I don't think it needs to be that low, either.

I just noticed that all his pics are on the shadow side of the car...kinda makes it hard to see details and the paint...

btw - good call on the insurance rates, they will go up.

Cavanagh
01-03-2007, 03:45 AM
Damn that prelude looks sick... By far the best looking prelude from the generation.

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 04:24 AM
ANY honda motor? And are you talking stock or modded.


stock, modded, shanken, stired it doesnt matter 3sgte > any 4cyl Hundu Motor.

Cavanagh
01-03-2007, 04:38 AM
stock, modded, shanken, stired it doesnt matter 3sgte > any 4cyl Hundu Motor.
I dont agree, but that was funny. hehe

CollapsedNut
01-03-2007, 03:11 PM
Well the prelude is still pending my fathers inspection. I'll get some pics of it up soon, its a mean looking car! Thanks for all the honda knowledge in this thread too!!

trah
01-03-2007, 04:16 PM
stock, modded, shanken, stired it doesnt matter 3sgte > any 4cyl Hundu Motor.


the s2k motor will eat the 3sgte. 4 cylinder 240hp 160lbs tq. weighs less then st165 so yeah lol :owned:

Idiot Stick
01-03-2007, 04:35 PM
Don't 4rd gen 3sgte's make 245 HP/235 tq or something like that? At lower RPM's than 9 grand?

I think you dont know what you're talkin about son. :o


I'd also like to note, that *I* don't know what I'm talking about either. :D

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 06:31 PM
Idiot Stick is right, the 4th Gen 3sgte is hella better than the S2k 4 banger and we arent talking about cars we are talking about engine.

ciento44
01-03-2007, 06:34 PM
And we're also talking about n/a vs. turbo... not really an apples to apples comparison, per se...

And i wasn't really aware of a 4th gen 3sgte.... O.o

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 07:14 PM
ST215 Caldina has the 4th Gen 3sgte, althought the block might be the same as the 3rd gen it does have a different head, intake and has a distributorless ignition.

hobbie2k
01-03-2007, 07:24 PM
And we're also talking about n/a vs. turbo... not really an apples to apples comparison, per se...

Although I'm not a big fan of the apples/oranges simile (after all, they are both fruit and are therefore comparable), I do agree with Ciento on this. You certainly can compare the two engines, but you have to take into account so much more than just power/displacement.

I know you said that we're comparing engines, not cars, but without the cars, the experience is incomplete. For example, if you were to stuff a 3sgte into an S2000 you'll probably find it handles worse, brakes worse, is no faster in a straight line, but is easier to daily drive (due to the 3sgte's larger size/weight, and flatter powerband). So while you say the 3sgte > the honduh engine, the S2000 would be a lot less a sports car with the 3sgte.

However if you were to replace the 3sgte in a sporty hatchback car (Caldina?) with the S2000's engine (F20a?) you'll probably find it handles a bit better, but is slower and infuriating to drive daily (due to the F20's smaller size/weight, and peaky powerband). It would defeat the purpose of both cars if they were to swap engines.

You like the 3sgte better. Good for you. I personally haven't had the pleasure to drive either a 3sgte or an F20a powered car, so I won't say which I like better. But to say the without a doubt one engine design is better in every respect than every engine made by a given manufacturer is close-minded, and you're not doing yourself, or anyone else, any favors. That is why I'm so quick to defend the LS1, even though I feel it is outdated.

ciento44
01-03-2007, 07:26 PM
ST215 Caldina has the 4th Gen 3sgte, althought the block might be the same as the 3rd gen it does have a different head, intake and has a distributorless ignition.

It's a revised 3rd gen engine. I believe someone recently said that Toyota considers it a 3rd gen, and i, with him, will walk along with that.

ciento44
01-03-2007, 07:44 PM
Although I'm not a big fan of the apples/oranges simile (after all, they are both fruit and are therefore comparable), I do agree with Ciento on this. You certainly can compare the two engines, but you have to take into account so much more than just power/displacement.

I know you said that we're comparing engines, not cars, but without the cars, the experience is incomplete. For example, if you were to stuff a 3sgte into an S2000 you'll probably find it handles worse, brakes worse, is no faster in a straight line, but is easier to daily drive (due to the 3sgte's larger size/weight, and flatter powerband). So while you say the 3sgte > the honduh engine, the S2000 would be a lot less a sports car with the 3sgte.

However if you were to replace the 3sgte in a sporty hatchback car (Caldina?) with the S2000's engine (F20a?) you'll probably find it handles a bit better, but is slower and infuriating to drive daily (due to the F20's smaller size/weight, and peaky powerband). It would defeat the purpose of both cars if they were to swap engines.

You like the 3sgte better. Good for you. I personally haven't had the pleasure to drive either a 3sgte or an F20a powered car, so I won't say which I like better. But to say the without a doubt one engine design is better in every respect than every engine made by a given manufacturer is close-minded, and you're not doing yourself, or anyone else, any favors. That is why I'm so quick to defend the LS1, even though I feel it is outdated.

Actually..... F20 is the same size as 3sgte, (second revision is actually larger) and i would bet that if you looked at the powerband, the 3sgte probably makes less HP, until it hits boost, which of course as you alluded to, will be lower than the Vtec engagement point in the Honda engine. The 3sgte will be MUCH slower in the S2000 than the F20 will be. As you said, it's heavier, and doesn't make as much power. You'd need a 3rd gen 3sgte to get to the power levels of the F20. (Wasn't sure what generation we were talking about, the 2nd gen won't even come close.)

What's interesting to note is that a few months ago, someone posted a Civic hatch that had a 3sgte swapped into it. Now... under the right circumstances, doing it the right way, i think that a FWD 3sgte Civic CX/VX EG hatch would be absolutely freaking insane fast, as well as challenging to drive on the flip side. But then again... that's replacing the POS D15b engine that came in those little boxes, which makes like 60hp to the front wheels.

I have driven S2000s, i've driven an MR2 Turbo, i've driven AllTracs. Stock form, i would honestly take an S2000 over any of them. They're quick, they handle great, and the engine is just so much damn fun, and sure, they don't have much of a powerband, but who cares? We aren't racing at every stoplight, but if you need it, the power is there.

The F20C isn't the engine that i would have personally picked to compare against the 3sgte out of all the honda engines, but still, and personally, i consider it to be better engineered for it's purpose than the 3sgte. But in terms of saying one is better than the other... come on.... you can't do it.

What would be a more direct comparison would be a BEAMS 3sge vs. the F20. Or possibly a "5sge" vs. an H23/H22. 2zzge vs. B18c, 4age vs. B16.

Idiot Stick
01-03-2007, 07:50 PM
Id like to imput that I meant to type 3rd gen. Thats why its typed out 4rd.

yeah.

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 08:02 PM
remember the 3sgte was designed and placed in a car in 1986, the S2k hundu motor was desgined and built in 99 or 2000. the 3sgte has gone thru alot of "updates" but they are just that, updates. If you are comparing the s2k motor with the 3sgte compare it with the newest version ONLY since that fair. IMO we are just comparing witch snail is faster, so it doesnt really matter to me.

KoreanJoey
01-03-2007, 08:07 PM
stock, modded, shanken, stired it doesnt matter 3sgte > any 4cyl Hundu Motor.

You guys are stupid... this is what he said to begin with and THAT'S when the talk of the F20 came in... HE started w/ 3SGTE, not his fault for comparing apples to oranges. Christ.

ciento44
01-03-2007, 08:16 PM
You guys are stupid... this is what he said to begin with and THAT'S when the talk of the F20 came in... HE started w/ 3SGTE, not his fault for comparing apples to oranges. Christ.

I think what was happening is that we naturally took the "best" Honda motor to try to compete with it...

Either way... there is no Honda motor that is equivalent to a 3sgte, so they don't match either way.

I thought this was a good discussion. :( Ima go cry now. <3 you Joey. :brick:

ciento44
01-03-2007, 08:17 PM
remember the 3sgte was designed and placed in a car in 1986, the S2k hundu motor was desgined and built in 99 or 2000. the 3sgte has gone thru alot of "updates" but they are just that, updates. If you are comparing the s2k motor with the 3sgte compare it with the newest version ONLY since that fair. IMO we are just comparing witch snail is faster, so it doesnt really matter to me.

Completely agreed in every way.

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 08:23 PM
I <3 Ciento and KJ

trah
01-03-2007, 09:07 PM
I think what was happening is that we naturally took the "best" Honda motor to try to compete with it...

Either way... there is no Honda motor that is equivalent to a 3sgte, so they don't match either way.

I thought this was a good discussion. :( Ima go cry now. <3 you Joey. :brick:


there is not equivalent since none of the honda motors are boosted like the 3sgte. but then again if you want to comapare apples to apples and year to year. we will take the 2nd gen 3sgte (since everyone has that in their cars) 220hp 200tq. and we will take the F22a1 (base honda Accord SOHC non vtec motor)

3sgte
8.2:1
Ct26
DOHC
AWD
and etc...
average weight is 3300
220hp
200tq
10psi stock (i think)

now

F22a1
8.2:1
SOHC
FWD
Compatable with 1st and 2nd gen DSM manifolds/Turbos
using this as a base and do what toyota did. We will add turbo
TD05H 14B
450cc DSM injectors blue tops
10 psi stock internal dsm wastegate set at.

now this is more comparable since I have this setup :thefinger


mine has around 220hp and 210tq
in the accord.

BTW i brought this up becasue you said that any modded turboed NA build 4 cylinder honda would get eating alive by a 3sgte i doubt it. I have a 2nd gen 3sgte in my 1st gen alltrac and its no where as fast as my accord. and i only have 1 cam. F22a1 was a great motor that honda made and discontinued since it was made out of iron casting instead of aluminum like all the other motors. so really apples to apples and adding a turbo with whatever engine there is more like of a better comparasion since NA vs Turbo NA better at low mid while turbo is mid high since we lagg in the low rpms....... sooooooo :givafuck:

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 09:26 PM
I hope you are NOT comparing stock 3sgte against a modded hundu motor, mods for mods or none at all. Dont be a ricer and quit comparing the All-Trac since the A/T is awd and 99% of hunduh are fwd, compare a swaped GT/GTS or an MR2 since both are not hindered by the weight of AWD, or compare an awd Accord or awd civic to the All-trac.

Cavanagh
01-03-2007, 09:34 PM
^^Be either....Yet, thats liike saying B18C1> All toyota 4 bangers. Its too broad of a comparision. We have are really bad (preformance wise) engines too. E.G. 5sfe, 4afe, 7afe, 3sge (not the beams) etc etc

trah
01-03-2007, 09:39 PM
I hope you are NOT comparing stock 3sgte against a modded hundu motor, mods for mods or none at all. Dont be a ricer and quit comparing the All-Trac since the A/T is awd and 99% of hunduh are fwd, compare a swaped GT/GTS or an MR2 since both are not hindered by the weight of AWD, or compare an awd Accord or awd civic to the All-trac.



sigh nvm no use of you understanding this thread needs to die now :bigthumbu

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 09:43 PM
screw it,

LSx > all

KoreanJoey
01-03-2007, 10:27 PM
*smashes head into desk while co-workers scramble into my office wondering if I've lost my mind*

2kSnakEater
01-03-2007, 10:28 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KoreanJoey again.

ciento44
01-03-2007, 10:46 PM
sigh nvm no use of you understanding this thread needs to die now :bigthumbu

I understand you, trah. :P

The issue that we run into, is that the performance is still not equal... If you take the turbo off a 3sgte, it's not going to make any power to even speak of, while the F22 will still be driveable, because that's how it was designed.

This is why turboing an F22 will yield more power at pretty equivalent pressure when compared to a 3sgte.

I think the main point is, there is no way to effectively compare the engines in question, minus the semi-direct corellations that i listed before.

I'll be honest, Honda motors are probably my favourite motors, especially when coupled with boost. There are just very few Honda cars that i would rather have than a celica, (That i can afford) so i stick with/by those engines for now.

This thread was going places, had some intelligent discussion, before the whole semi-flame stupid this stupid that posts came into play.

DarkSideCelica
01-03-2007, 11:17 PM
trah speaks the truth!! repped!:bigthumbu

u can't go around comparing the f20b and 3sgte....both were built for different routes... one is NA and one is turbo... hell, if u want to, compare a 3sge to the b18 or b16 or f20b or h22 to be fair