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TheNefariousOne
12-15-2006, 07:00 AM
is really annoying. And lately it seems like every thread has at least one post that is along the lines of "OGM Ford is t3h sux0rs Lo0l!!!11!" Come on...I have no problem with people disliking other cars but its fawking annoying to constantly be reading posts like that.

Y'all feel me?!!!

Murgatroy
12-15-2006, 07:18 AM
It is not different than being on a Mustang oriented site, every thread there will have a 'Toyota Sucks' post as well.

It is fear of the unknown.

It is not something to get upset about. All cars have thier ups and downs. In the end though, most of the time it is more of a bias against the stereotyped owner as opposed to the manufacturer themselves.

TheNefariousOne
12-15-2006, 07:52 AM
I know it's everywhere, but still...

I just wish people would be a little more open-minded about shiz.

Cavanagh
12-15-2006, 02:41 PM
I know it's everywhere, but still...y be reading posts like that.



I just wish people would be a little more open-minded about shiz.[/QUOTE]

Me too, but other sites are the same, even honda sites rip on us. Mustangs are bad though. For Christ sake, my friends name on the mustang forum is Muscleownzrice....


And Btw, i have never heard anyone say "OGM Ford is t3h sux0rs Lo0l!!!

:)

hobbie2k
12-15-2006, 03:13 PM
Having owned a Ford, 2 Chevys, a Lincoln, a Buick, a Jeep, a Volkswagen, 7 Nissans, 2 Toyotas, and a Honda. I can say they all have their good and bad points. My Toyota Camry was actually the LEAST reliable of all my cars, having died at 88,000mi. The Jeep still runs well with 185,000 very rough miles.

The two slowest cars I owned were the two with the largest motors, the Ford had a 390ci, the Buick a 307ci. The Jeep is actually surprisingly quick. The fastest cars are my Jetta (2.0T) and the JDM Nissan Cima Cedric (3.0T). The best handlers were the Nissan Silvia and the two 240SXs, and the Honda Accord wagon was a huge surprise in the twisties.

My Chevy Malibu Maxx is actually a decent car, it could use a smoother, more refined engine instead of the archaic OHV V6 it has, and the 4speed tranny is out of date. But the ratios are well-matched, the ride is smooth but not floaty, it handles predictably, and has massive utility for a very low price. It's not a Camry-beater, but it's plenty good enough for most people.

As I see it, all cars operate on the same basic principles, no matter where they're built. So, if you're willing to bend your thinking a bit, you can apply lessons commonly learned in one type of motoring to another. If you want to build a 2zzge NA screamer, talk to Honda guys, they've been doing it for more than a decade. If you want to turbocharge your LS1, talk to a Nissan or Toyota guy. If you want to get the best drag launch possible out of you Supra, go to a domestic forum. etc...

2kSnakEater
12-15-2006, 03:19 PM
what are you guys talking about? domestics break down all the time! thats why I drive my....oh..wait...mine still has 207k miles and runs strong.


nvm

VikingJZ
12-15-2006, 03:58 PM
I just refuse to purchase one because of horrible my past experiences have been with them. Since 2000, we have owned a 2000 Chevy Warner Brothers Edition Venture and then traded that in for a 2003 Olds Silhouette Premier. Both vans are basically the same vehicle with only minor differences. On both vans before 50k miles, the oil pumps have gone out, random things break, and both have annoying rattles that the dealership cannot solve. The Silhouette has been the worst of the two. It gets driven on the highway all the time by my dad who has about as much of a lead foot as an 80 year old woman. Along with the oil pump, we've had to replace the front struts and all of the mounts, the heaters for the leather seats have gone out EVERY winter that we have owned it, the transmission had a grind in it, and my personal favorite---having to replace the Goodyear Eagle (80k mile tires) at 29k miles. I know the tires are separate...but still that was pretty rediculous. Our Lumina has had problems, but not as bad as the van. The Lumina we purchased from an older couple down the road. Right now it has 70k miles on it (1998). Water pump blew on that....radiator....one of the injectors. It's just weird stuff.

That's the same kind of answer I get when I ask people about their satisfaction with domestic cars-GM and Ford in particular.

GM and Ford have always been lacking in the style arena. Nothing has jumped out at me for a long time. Even Edmunds.com had beef with them, saying that the majority of their cars had "cheap interior quality."

Chrysler is the only American car company I'd CONSIDER purchasing from.

The US brand cars manufacture many of their cars outside of the states, while the Japanese companies are manufacturing right here in the heartland. I want my money going to an American worker...and not some other Joe Shmoe.


I'll stick with Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.

Morwan
12-16-2006, 12:36 AM
I'm not too thrilled with the build quality of domestic cars, I'd say about two thirds of the ones I've run into shit themselves before hitting 100k. In my eyes, that's not acceptable when ten year old imports last longer. It seems like for every domestic people-mover out there, there's an import that will do its job better and more reliably. Ignoring that, they just seem to make really terrible decisions. GM has been using the same 4-speed autos for the past ten years, while everyone else moved on to five and six speed transmissions. Ford still refuses to bring over the Euro Focus and is heavily relying on nostalgia to keep itself alive.

Chrysler makes fugly cars with truck grills.

That said, I really like/admire their sports cars. The LS* series of engines are the most amazing series of 8-cylinder engines on the planet, and I dream of swapping one into a 3rd gen. The Z06 trounces supercars that cost three times as much in handling, speed, and style (IMHO). Ford.. Well, their Mazda-based cars are great. :hehe:

90celicaGTX
12-16-2006, 12:40 AM
just face it, fords sux! ha

chevy... ok

burnyd
12-16-2006, 06:20 AM
I just refuse to purchase one because of horrible my past experiences have been with them. Since 2000, we have owned a 2000 Chevy Warner Brothers Edition Venture and then traded that in for a 2003 Olds Silhouette Premier. Both vans are basically the same vehicle with only minor differences. On both vans before 50k miles, the oil pumps have gone out, random things break, and both have annoying rattles that the dealership cannot solve. The Silhouette has been the worst of the two. It gets driven on the highway all the time by my dad who has about as much of a lead foot as an 80 year old woman. Along with the oil pump, we've had to replace the front struts and all of the mounts, the heaters for the leather seats have gone out EVERY winter that we have owned it, the transmission had a grind in it, and my personal favorite---having to replace the Goodyear Eagle (80k mile tires) at 29k miles. I know the tires are separate...but still that was pretty rediculous. Our Lumina has had problems, but not as bad as the van. The Lumina we purchased from an older couple down the road. Right now it has 70k miles on it (1998). Water pump blew on that....radiator....one of the injectors. It's just weird stuff.

That's the same kind of answer I get when I ask people about their satisfaction with domestic cars-GM and Ford in particular.

GM and Ford have always been lacking in the style arena. Nothing has jumped out at me for a long time. Even Edmunds.com had beef with them, saying that the majority of their cars had "cheap interior quality."

Chrysler is the only American car company I'd CONSIDER purchasing from.

The US brand cars manufacture many of their cars outside of the states, while the Japanese companies are manufacturing right here in the heartland. I want my money going to an American worker...and not some other Joe Shmoe.


I'll stick with Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.


you have your shit all ass backwards... 5 stars has to be the absolutel worse!

everything breaks. Domestic,import,euro... there are always cars that have problems with. Just because you have an import does not make you better than anyone with a domestic. Gm's are more and more reliable and there more and more economy based. Also... GM has been teaming up with toyota on alot of cars. I drove a pontiac suv with a yota motor in it today... it was awesome. Dont be so close minded. Our cars stock dont make dick for power and there are domestic owners out there running low 13s on cars like fbuckets. Be a domestic hater... but your not any better than the guys who own fbodies and make fun of civics.

Rix86
12-16-2006, 06:41 PM
I just hate pushrods.
so wasteful.
MY car does over 9,000 rpm on a stock bottom end.
Not many doestics can claim that.
If I wanted to go FAST, I'd have a domestic.
I prefer handling. not many REALLY light RWD domestics available.

zmile06
12-16-2006, 10:22 PM
I will agree that im tired of the bashing all domestics or all imports... I used to prefer domestics over imports at one point in time. But that was when i was young and into old muscle cars. I still like old muscle cars dont get me wrong here... And i know someone who has a 96 dodge ram with 400k miles yes thats right.. Original engine... Part of the the life of a car is the owner not the car itself..

I think GM is producing pieces of shit right now, im sorry if that is "bashing and anoying". But that is my opinion as a car lover not a import lover. I think some car producers like chysler are doing a decent job. Domestic car producers are hurting so much for money there digging up the grave of some of the best muscle cars ever produced.

I like toyota because they tell you exactly what your getting a reliable car for more then the average cost of a car. Most domestics now you never know the reliability rating, or what there reputation will be tommrow. Toyota is not perfect but at least they have a track record to prove what they say.

TheNefariousOne
12-17-2006, 01:48 AM
I just hate pushrods.
so wasteful.
MY car does over 9,000 rpm on a stock bottom end.
Not many doestics can claim that.
If I wanted to go FAST, I'd have a domestic.
I prefer handling. not many REALLY light RWD domestics available.

Pushrods aren't wasteful. They make for a much more compact, and thus, lighter engine. Ever wonder why an LS1 is very similiar in weight (possibly lighter...?) than a 3sgte? It's just a different setup. The only real disadvantage is that it somewhat limits the amount of valves per cylinder to at most usually 3.

The reason domestics don't rev to 9000 RPMs is because they don't need to. They make all their torque down low. V-configured engines aren't as rev happy as their inline counterparts...just a fact of life.

And the handling...I just recently saw an autocross video over on LS1tech.com where a Trans-Am beat an S2000 and some other import at an autocross. Though, they're not light, true...

Murgatroy
12-17-2006, 02:02 AM
If I wanted to go FAST, I'd have a domestic.
I prefer handling. not many REALLY light RWD domestics available.
I have owned F-Bodies and Fox Chassis cars for years. I have owned over a dozen 2nd Gen Camaros. I had a `76 steel bumpers and all in the 10s with only a few thousand in the engine. God help you if you needed to turn. I have always liked a Celica in the corners, all my friends had them growing up, the 1rst and 3rd Gen Celicas were a joy in the mountains, they were just underpowered in the straights.

The FWD Celicas, while not as reliably nimble, are still a joy to drive and have that gut that makes a car enjoyable.

Admittedly, I miss throwing my `78 Z28 sideways every chance I could get. Drifting is something heavy tailed overpowered V8 domestics can do too. :hehe:

I still wouldn't mind having a `77 Firebird, killing to get it is not out of the question.

I don't hate on any car, but I do dislike attitudes of naiveté in automotive opinions. Once you pour blood sweat and tears into it, it becomes a living breathing thing.

Chris
12-17-2006, 04:16 AM
I've never ran into problems with anyone who owns a domestic. It's always been civic owners who piss me off.

Rix86
12-17-2006, 08:32 AM
Pushrods aren't wasteful. They make for a much more compact, and thus, lighter engine. Ever wonder why an LS1 is very similiar in weight (possibly lighter...?) than a 3sgte?
Wanna try again?
they use an EXTREME amount of power to push all those extra parts around.
and the valvetrain and pushrods also create rev limiting by their mass and harmonic resonances. but yes, it does create a smaller (shorter) package.
that's the main reason bob Lutz said they still had pushrods on the c5 and c6 vette.
I LOVE the title of this article:
http://www.billzilla.org/2v4v.htm
ls1 uses thin castings, it's all aluminum alloy, and doesn't have a huge amount of cast iron and steel parts stuck on it like a 3sgte does.
without boost, you still need revs to get BIG (comparitively) power.
look at nascar. plenty of revs there.
I will NOT ever argue that the ls series V8's are good engines.
I still don't want one though.
Am I biased against america cars and engines?
Absolutely.
and with that said, did you see the pictures of my new car?
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/rix86/1969amc/DSCN3487.jpg
HAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!!111oneeleven

MCcelica
12-17-2006, 08:47 AM
I gotta tell ya. My parents have a 93 Jeep grand cherokee. That bad boy has (at last count) 260k miles on it. When I was younger I used to take that thing out to the local 4x4 course and make it do things that lifted trucks were doing. I mean I beat the shit out of that thing. I've almost died in it more times than I can count. I've high centered it a few times, I've sent it careening through ditches where it hit the bumper on the ground at 25, I've dropped it off small dropoffs that has left me dragging the back bumper off of a ledge with the front wheels. There is no reason in hell that thing should still be running, but so help me god it is still kicking like chuck norris. I mean, sure you can't open the back passenger door, and most of the windows don't roll all the way up any more, and you gotta prop open the hatch with a broom handle and whatnot, but the engine and drivetrain are still rediculously solid. I take my hat off every time I look at that beast.

Rix86
12-17-2006, 10:33 AM
I gotta tell ya. My parents have a 93 Jeep grand cherokee. That bad boy has (at last count) 260k miles on it. When I was younger I used to take that thing out to the local 4x4 course and make it do things that lifted trucks were doing. I mean I beat the shit out of that thing. I've almost died in it more times than I can count. I've high centered it a few times, I've sent it careening through ditches where it hit the bumper on the ground at 25, I've dropped it off small dropoffs that has left me dragging the back bumper off of a ledge with the front wheels. There is no reason in hell that thing should still be running, but so help me god it is still kicking like chuck norris. I mean, sure you can't open the back passenger door, and most of the windows don't roll all the way up any more, and you gotta prop open the hatch with a broom handle and whatnot, but the engine and drivetrain are still rediculously solid. I take my hat off every time I look at that beast.
4 liter?
cause those are seriously good engines.
stout as hell.

hobbie2k
12-17-2006, 02:51 PM
I gotta tell ya. My parents have a 93 Jeep grand cherokee. That bad boy has (at last count) 260k miles on it. When I was younger I used to take that thing out to the local 4x4 course and make it do things that lifted trucks were doing. I mean I beat the shit out of that thing. I've almost died in it more times than I can count. I've high centered it a few times, I've sent it careening through ditches where it hit the bumper on the ground at 25, I've dropped it off small dropoffs that has left me dragging the back bumper off of a ledge with the front wheels. There is no reason in hell that thing should still be running, but so help me god it is still kicking like chuck norris. I mean, sure you can't open the back passenger door, and most of the windows don't roll all the way up any more, and you gotta prop open the hatch with a broom handle and whatnot, but the engine and drivetrain are still rediculously solid. I take my hat off every time I look at that beast.

My dad's got a 93 Cherokee. 185k on the clock and still running well. If we spent the money to repair the massive coolant (caused when my brother rear-ended someone on the freeway) and the oil leaks, it would probably run well for a long time yet.

Although, we did have to replace the fuel pump-regulator, and the oil pressure sending unit, and the water pump, but a few repairs now and then are expected. You do gotta watch out for oil pump failure on those 4.0s, though, especially since the sending unit has a tendency to fail as well... The oil pressure guage drops and people think it's the sending unit and they blow up their motor.

NDMstang65
12-17-2006, 04:42 PM
Gotta remember where it all started...i'm a fan of just cars in general...they all came from the same place, whether some would like to admit it or not :). The Japanese are just very intelligent, and look at things from a different perspective of efficiency. Americans love the lope and the smell of pure cam 2 belching out the open headers at the drag strip :D.

Few pics of one of Carrol Shelby's personal drag car...you get a whole new perspective on what he was thinking back then when you get to see something the man actually built with his own two hands, and sit in a seat that he sat in and drove himself.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/NDMstang65/gt70051hj.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/NDMstang65/gt70032ew.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/NDMstang65/gt70047gy.jpg

TheNefariousOne
12-17-2006, 05:11 PM
Wanna try again?
they use an EXTREME amount of power to push all those extra parts around.
and the valvetrain and pushrods also create rev limiting by their mass and harmonic resonances. but yes, it does create a smaller (shorter) package.
that's the main reason bob Lutz said they still had pushrods on the c5 and c6 vette.
I LOVE the title of this article:
http://www.billzilla.org/2v4v.htm
ls1 uses thin castings, it's all aluminum alloy, and doesn't have a huge amount of cast iron and steel parts stuck on it like a 3sgte does.
without boost, you still need revs to get BIG (comparitively) power.
look at nascar. plenty of revs there.
I will NOT ever argue that the ls series V8's are good engines.
I still don't want one though.
Am I biased against america cars and engines?
Absolutely.


Redemption of the pushrod (http://theautoprophet.blogspot.com/2005/06/redemption-of-pushrod.html)

Why the preoccupation with revving high? Most pushrod engines make the power down low...so they don't have to rev high. The only reason NASCAR engines need to go to 9000 RPMs is because they are limited to a 4 speed transmission. Another thing to consider is the fact that these engines are running at these RPMs for 500 miles straight. F1 engines can't claim that kind of reliability.

Pushrod engines can make enough N/A HP (without insane revs) for any sort of application short of all out drag racing (I'm talking sub 10-11s)

ciento44
12-17-2006, 05:30 PM
Redemption of the pushrod (http://theautoprophet.blogspot.com/2005/06/redemption-of-pushrod.html)

Why the preoccupation with revving high? Most pushrod engines make the power down low...so they don't have to rev high. The only reason NASCAR engines need to go to 9000 RPMs is because they are limited to a 4 speed transmission. Another thing to consider is the fact that these engines are running at these RPMs for 500 miles straight. F1 engines can't claim that kind of reliability.

Pushrod engines can make enough N/A HP (without insane revs) for any sort of application short of all out drag racing (I'm talking sub 10-11s)

Pushrods can even get down there as well. :P

I've seen an LS1 swapped FC RX7 get well into the mid 10s. Impressive to say the least. Think what an LS7 swap would do...

burnyd
12-17-2006, 05:39 PM
I just hate pushrods.
so wasteful.
MY car does over 9,000 rpm on a stock bottom end.
Not many doestics can claim that.
If I wanted to go FAST, I'd have a domestic.
I prefer handling. not many REALLY light RWD domestics available.

ok so 5k rpms @ 400hp out of a big block is dumb... please.

thats great then buy an import

What do you think the WS6 F-bodies are designed to do ?

hobbie2k
12-17-2006, 06:32 PM
Pushrods have their disadvantages, and they have their advantages the major advantage is that they are Teh HaWTNESS (according to my wife).

Advantage - Compact design, lightweight valvetrain compared to DOHC V-engines, simple, well understood design. Decades of development. Cheap to build.

Disadvantage - Heavy valvetrain compared to SOHC inline-engines, limited to 2 valves per cylinder (I've never heard of one with 3 or more), 4 small valves supposedly breath better than two large ones. Reciprocating pushrods generate lots of vibration compared to OHC engines.

Case in point - GM has been building pushrod V6s and V8s for the US market almost exclusively, but their next gen V6 is now a DOHC design, and every review I've read said it is a FAR superior engine than the old pushrod V6s. It's smoother, quieter, more powerful, and far more refined. They're planning on phasing out their pushrod V6s in the next product cycle. The only disadvantage with the DOHC engine is that it's more expensive.

It's only a matter of time before they start phasing out their pushrod V8s as well. The only real reason the LS series engines are still around is because they are so cheap to make. How else could they sell a 400hp car for $50,000?

Rix86
12-17-2006, 07:04 PM
ok so 5k rpms @ 400hp out of a big block is dumb... please.

thats great then buy an import

What do you think the WS6 F-bodies are designed to do ?
what the hell are you talking about?
or talking to?
I have 11 cars. 2 are american ( literally..... american motors )

Pushrods have their disadvantages, and they have their advantages the major advantage is that they are Teh HaWTNESS (according to my wife).

Advantage - Compact design, lightweight valvetrain compared to DOHC V-engines, simple, well understood design. Decades of development. Cheap to build.

Disadvantage - Heavy valvetrain compared to SOHC inline-engines, limited to 2 valves per cylinder (I've never heard of one with 3 or more), 4 small valves supposedly breath better than two large ones. Reciprocating pushrods generate lots of vibration compared to OHC engines.

Case in point - GM has been building pushrod V6s and V8s for the US market almost exclusively, but their next gen V6 is now a DOHC design, and every review I've read said it is a FAR superior engine than the old pushrod V6s. It's smoother, quieter, more powerful, and far more refined. They're planning on phasing out their pushrod V6s in the next product cycle. The only disadvantage with the DOHC engine is that it's more expensive.

It's only a matter of time before they start phasing out their pushrod V8s as well. The only real reason the LS series engines are still around is because they are so cheap to make. How else could they sell a 400hp car for $50,000?
compact valvetrain, yes.
lightweight... NO. valvetrain is everything AFTER the cam.
simple... well no, not really. more moving parts does not make "simple"
cheap to build... only because the tooling is still around.
disadvantages... all that and much more.
one of the main reasons the ls engine is still around is to have a low hood line on the vette.
how else could they build a 400 HP car for 50,000 dollars?
they could do it for 25.

MCcelica
12-17-2006, 07:41 PM
4 liter?
cause those are seriously good engines.
stout as hell.

It's actually the inline 6 which I believe is a 3.6 liter. Still a pretty ballsy engine though. And I lied, we had to replace something in the transfer case about 3 years ago, but I don't remember what. Kinda forgot about it though cause with everything it's been through I'm really surprised that the transfer case was it. Any less of a vehicle would have been completely destroyed imho.

Rix86
12-17-2006, 09:55 PM
93 with an inline 6 should be a 4.0.
they were overbuilt, and they show it with how long they run.
damn fine engines. like the ford 300 I-6.

MCcelica
12-18-2006, 08:14 AM
I talked to 'em earlier and they poked around a bit and found out it was indeed a 4.0l. My bad. So yeah. Once again it appears that nsy has no clue what he's talking about. hahaha.

hobbie2k
12-18-2006, 04:09 PM
what the hell are you talking about?
or talking to?
I have 11 cars. 2 are american ( literally..... american motors )

compact valvetrain, yes.
lightweight... NO. valvetrain is everything AFTER the cam.
In weight, I was comparing to a DOHC V-engine, so while I was including the cam and timing chain/belt in the "valvetrain" weight (considering their only purpose is to actuate the valves you'd think they would be included, but whatever) the DOHC multivalve engines still have twice as many lifters/rockers and valves and they all add weight to the valvetrain, however in a SOHC 2 valve engine (as I mentioned) you have a lighter valvetrain.


simple... well no, not really. more moving parts does not make "simple"
See above. In addition, simpler device isn't always the one with fewer parts, it is the one with which you are most familiar. I know guys who've rebuilt OHV V8s and do all their own labor, but didn't realise that there are engines with more than two valves per cylinder. Which do you think they will see as "simpler"?


cheap to build... only because the tooling is still around.
That doesn't change the fact that they're cheap to build.


disadvantages... all that and much more.
one of the main reasons the ls engine is still around is to have a low hood line on the vette.
One of the vette's main selling points is that it is a performance bargain out of the box. Therefore, cost is a very serious issue. How much more would it cost if they had to develop a multivalve V8 for it? They will have to eventually, but for now, the LS6-7 offers all the power they need in a compact, lightweight, and inexpensive package, and aren't those all qualities you want in a sports car?


how else could they build a 400 HP car for 50,000 dollars?
they could do it for 25.
And all they'd have to give up is some quality ('cause GM products have so much to spare), chassis balance, suspension tuning, brake tuning, interior comfort, everyday driveability, and style.

VikingJZ
12-18-2006, 04:46 PM
I don'y "go out of my way" to make fun of domestic vehicles. I just refuse to buy them. I go by what many people say and have had experiences with. I have come to the conclusion that they are NOT as reliable as a car from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. Whether you believe that or not...that's fine. Don't tell someone that they are wrong because they won't buy what they believe to be garbage.

Rix86
12-18-2006, 05:10 PM
you do know a c5/c6corvette has an aliminum "space frame" chassis right?
and all aluminum suspension?
and a rear mounted transaxle?
this is funny.
pushrods are less efficient than a dohc.
PERIOD.
there is NO arguement here.

hobbie2k
12-18-2006, 06:19 PM
you do know a c5/c6corvette has an aliminum "space frame" chassis right?
and all aluminum suspension?
and a rear mounted transaxle?
this is funny.
pushrods are less efficient than a dohc.
PERIOD.
there is NO arguement here.

They are less efficient, no argument. Which is why they will be replaced eventually, but for the time being, the LS motor still fulfills it's purpose and does it well. GM's pushrod V6s, on the other hand, NEED to be replaced.

Rix86
12-18-2006, 06:24 PM
No arguement from me there.
the trailblazers dohc i-6 made a stout 260 HP.
GM's FWD packaging has always kinda sucked though.
well....not just GM for sure.
damn FWD cars.

Morwan
12-19-2006, 09:02 AM
you do know a c5/c6corvette has an aliminum "space frame" chassis right?
and all aluminum suspension?
and a rear mounted transaxle?
this is funny.
pushrods are less efficient than a dohc.
PERIOD.
there is NO arguement here.

Pushrods may be less efficient, but they're also much smaller and lighter in V configurations.

Compare the VQ35 and the LS2:

The LS2 gets better gas mileage (with a manual) and produces 100 more hp while having a similar price and size as the VQ35. Add to that its superior potential, and it's pretty easy to make the case for pushrods. There's honestly no reason to switch over to a DOHC design when they do their job perfectly fine.

KoreanJoey
12-19-2006, 09:33 AM
Um... displacement?

Murgatroy
12-19-2006, 09:36 AM
The LS series has much more displacment than the VQ series.

I am a fan of all cars. Period. Once you have lived it, you understand.

MightyAl
12-19-2006, 02:43 PM
Pushrods may be less efficient, but they're also much smaller and lighter in V configurations.

Compare the VQ35 and the LS2:

The LS2 gets better gas mileage (with a manual) and produces 100 more hp while having a similar price and size as the VQ35. Add to that its superior potential, and it's pretty easy to make the case for pushrods. There's honestly no reason to switch over to a DOHC design when they do their job perfectly fine.

The VQ35 is a V6 with over 2L less displacement. I would say that is a pretty efficient use of cubes compared to the V8. I have just started digging into the 1uz which is an amazing engine and unbelievably cheap to buy from yards. I know N/A people are getting 300+whp from these engines and they are as stout as they come and light as hell. I used to be a domestic guy and have owned a multitude of mustangs and T/A's but the toyota bug bit me hard. I have a camry that I bought at 120k miles and am now at 170k miles with the only expenses being gas, tires, a new battery and oil changes. And yeah I know I really need to get the brakes done. It is a '96 and it regularly gets 29-31mpg which is approximately what the domestics tout as great gas mileage on all there cars. Dont get me wrong I have owned an Olds with a 455 cu in motor and man was that thing a beast but I like my comforts a lot more and a nice turbo car has always done me right.

hobbie2k
12-19-2006, 03:21 PM
Well, pretty soon cams and timing belts/chains will be outdated anyway. In 10-20 years we might be talking about DOHC engines the same way we're talking about pushrod engines now. Of course, that will probably be about the time GM finishes phasing out it's pushrod engines :hehe:

Morwan
12-19-2006, 03:35 PM
Um... displacement?
My point is, even though the LS series has more displacement, in practical applications it gets the same gas mileage as the VQ35 while producing 100 more hp.

2kSnakEater
12-19-2006, 03:59 PM
electronic valves is the new age of engines, camless engines will be so hot. Imagine changing a cam like you do now, but instead of getting dirty all you do is plug your computer in to your ecu and change the cam values.

oh and GM is already testing that on some cadilacs.

burnyd
12-19-2006, 04:13 PM
fast is fast is fast is fast if fast is fast

who cares.... /this thread..

Rix86
12-20-2006, 12:20 AM
pushrod valvetrain, until you get into really expensive alloy stuff IS NOT LIGHTER.
period.
end o story.
and fast is fast is fast is fast is wrong as well.

MightyAl
12-20-2006, 03:35 PM
electronic valves is the new age of engines, camless engines will be so hot. Imagine changing a cam like you do now, but instead of getting dirty all you do is plug your computer in to your ecu and change the cam values.

oh and GM is already testing that on some cadilacs.

I know BMW and M-B have been experimenting with this for years. The biggest issue is the valve slamming into the head. Nothing like a cam to decelerate a hunk of metal a hundreth of a second before it slams into another piece of metal. I am pretty sure this has been the largest obstacle in getting this technolgy to work. If and when it does get implemented man how cool will it be to change duration and lift on the fly when you change a bolt on part. Fuel economy and torque just by changing the paramaters every 100 rpm. Add in Ion sensing ignition and direct injection and everyone will be running ultra lean and getting 40mpg while being able to have massive amounts of torque all through the power band. Very cool stuff and more then likely where the next 20 years will take us. :Ban1:

2kSnakEater
12-20-2006, 05:28 PM
Mighty Al, pics of the All-Trac or ban.

CollapsedNut
12-20-2006, 06:36 PM
I gotta tell ya. My parents have a 93 Jeep grand cherokee. That bad boy has (at last count) 260k miles on it. When I was younger I used to take that thing out to the local 4x4 course and make it do things that lifted trucks were doing. I mean I beat the shit out of that thing. I've almost died in it more times than I can count. I've high centered it a few times, I've sent it careening through ditches where it hit the bumper on the ground at 25, I've dropped it off small dropoffs that has left me dragging the back bumper off of a ledge with the front wheels. There is no reason in hell that thing should still be running, but so help me god it is still kicking like chuck norris. I mean, sure you can't open the back passenger door, and most of the windows don't roll all the way up any more, and you gotta prop open the hatch with a broom handle and whatnot, but the engine and drivetrain are still rediculously solid. I take my hat off every time I look at that beast.

Im amazed at my old Jeep as well. 93 wrangler YJ with the 2.5L and the shitty ax-5 tranny. crapy d35 rear and 150k drivin by teenagers all its life! No oil leaks, no oil burn, tranny went out at 120k rear end is out now but for a lil motor that thing can rev and its stable

COLDAX
12-20-2006, 07:47 PM
I own a 1996 Chrysler Town & Country minivan. Top of the line, leather, wood, dual zone a/c, blah blah. Costs $35K, maybe 36 when new. Thankfully I bought it used in 2001 for only 14 after massive depreciation. Mechanically it has exceeed my expectations and the engine is terrific.

But why on a 35K+ luxury vehicle must there be an exposed Phillips head screw and washer right on the door above the armrest? They couldn't even cap it.

Why is the transmission one taken from a car? It is a glaring weak link on a heavy minivan (one that has a tow package too, but I don't dare).

Why is it impossible to change 3 of 6 spark plugs without a lift and dropping the engine to get access?

These engineering choices are poor and shortsighted and reflect typical domestic manufacturer decision making.

Do these types of errors happen in Japanese cars? You bet, but's rare and often fixed in subsequent generations.

The bottom line is that japanese cars are better engineered right out of box, from the drivetrain choices, to ergonomics, to tolerances, to materials.

Every time I get in my 15 year old celica it just feels right - like someone thought it out thoroughly. It's balanced and correct, like an extension of my body. It was made to have this effect. I appreciate that.

Every time I get in my 97 Ford escort wagon it feels cobbleled together from miscellaneous parts. Sure, it's a car, but it doesn't feel like it has a purpose other than transporting my body. It's an appliance.

I think domestics are getting better, and have come a long way. But the Japanese are also getting better so that gap between them is still there.