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View Full Version : 3sgte swap Celica vs. Silvia s13 SR20DET swap



YangS
01-21-2005, 09:44 PM
I am a nissan fan to and my second car might be a sr20 swap 240sx; but after I am done with my 3s swap celica.

I haven't heard much about these two going at it. Mostly srt-4, ITR, eclipse gsx, talon tsi, or mr 2 agianst the 3sgte celica. So which one do you guys think is the better of the 2. Anyone know where I could find video clips of the 2 car?

Modification not known yet.

ChrisD
01-21-2005, 10:08 PM
I've raced authentic Silvias...basically the range for the SR20DET guys that I've raced and seen race has been 13.6-14.1 in the 1/4 mile...

Trance4c
01-21-2005, 11:49 PM
I've raced our old shop car which was an SR20DET swap 240, front mount, T28, full 3" exhaust, etc. As soon as we went for it, I jumped a car on him quick and then kept pulling slowly. I was running 10psi while the 240SX was on 14psi. I am working on a front mount, 2.5" crush exhaust, 3" downpipe and upgraded turbo. I would imagine that if we were both on the stock turbo at 14psi to 14psi.. its pretty dead even. I'd really leave this one up to the driver to decide it.

Lagos
01-22-2005, 02:00 AM
clayton, too bad you didnt video tape the race

Colossus20v
01-22-2005, 04:49 AM
i would probably say this is up to the drivers. I have not looked into the weight difference.

Benevolence
01-22-2005, 07:55 AM
does the 240 being rwd make a major difference?

galcrazi
01-22-2005, 11:33 AM
not really... curb weight is VERY close

spoolin_gt
01-23-2005, 02:15 AM
i haven't driven an sr20 swap 240 but i've driven a stock 240....shifting from each gear in a rwd car is completely different in a fwd setup.....rwd feels like car is pushing you in each gear.....i dont know if it actually gives it more advantage but it sure does feel like it...

Rayme
01-23-2005, 07:36 AM
it does the weight is all transfered on the powered wheels, that means you can give more throttle without wheel spin = faster acceleration.

YangS
01-23-2005, 01:39 PM
sr20det are one of the best motor for nissan like the toyota 3sgte, But I think maybe the 240sx will launch quicker then the celica since its rwd.

Sean
01-24-2005, 02:38 AM
This thread is going to be closed, unless you can give me a reason to keep it open.

Please read the rules of drag racing.

Trance4c
01-24-2005, 03:24 AM
This thread is going to be closed, unless you can give me a reason to keep it open.

Please read the rules of drag racing.

I don't see any reason why this thread should be closed! We are having a good conversation here, what 'rules' of drag racing are you even talking about? reguardless.. not like we're here drag racing anyways, we're just talking about how two cars stack up! This is perfectly fine conversation, I don't understand were your coming from sean!

Snafu
01-24-2005, 04:36 AM
I see where you're comming from Sean, this post is for sure a bench race. However, we're not talking about two specific cars. As Clayton said, we're just talking about the pros/cons of the two cars in a straight line setting.

It would be another story if this was a "My buddy said his SR20DET 240sx would kick the shit out of mine. I have intake/exhaust and he has a boost controller" type shit.

I think this is fine, but NO E-RACING

Sean
01-24-2005, 06:00 AM
I dont want this place to be full of "bench racing". I know bench racing very well, and its a waste of bandwith. We want to hear aftermath stories, not who do you think will win?

Snafu, that is the answer that I wanted to hear. I dont see this inquiry post as a problem, just as long as it doesnt change into a drama/ penis envy debate. I as well am rather curious about these SR20's.

JUST KEEP IT TO THE FACTS (Like you all have done :) ), and continue.

To add, from what ive seen, non boosted SR20's are still dogs! I raced two at the drag strip after my swap, and they were both about a second behind. I imagine a boosted one would be very quick indeed.

Sean
01-24-2005, 06:02 AM
Sorry clay, hit edit instead of qoute :(

Trance4c
01-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Sorry clay, hit edit instead of qoute :(

Its cool man, just don't want you to lose the purpose of why were here and threaten closing threads when its not needed. You know me and my past, I am avidly against closing threads.

Hooligan
01-24-2005, 06:43 PM
Once both cars are moving, FWD compared to RWD will not be a big deal. 1st gear applies the most torque to the ground of all the gears.

Sean
01-24-2005, 07:19 PM
Its cool man, just don't want you to lose the purpose of why were here and threaten closing threads when its not needed. You know me and my past, I am avidly against closing threads.

Like I said, as long as it stays to the facts, and is civil, I have no issues.

silverarrow
01-25-2005, 07:02 AM
I personally have an sr powered s13. I love it. Haven't test driven or been in a 3s swapped celi yet so I can't compare either. I would think it's very very close. Driver's race all the way on this one.

Oh and it being rwd doesn't have any advantage of the celica being fwd. The rear on these 240s are pretty light to be drag racing it which leads to wheel spin. I know!

Sean
01-25-2005, 08:46 AM
I personally have an sr powered s13. I love it. Haven't test driven or been in a 3s swapped celi yet so I can't compare either. I would think it's very very close. Driver's race all the way on this one.

Oh and it being rwd doesn't have any advantage of the celica being fwd. The rear on these 240s are pretty light to be drag racing it which leads to wheel spin. I know!


Pics, vids, specs, times?

YangS
01-25-2005, 07:08 PM
sr20det are a high rev motor compare to the 3sgte so, IMO maybe the sr20 well have a harder time to run 13 then a 3sgte.

Hey Sean thanks for not closing the thread, Sorry about it but I forgot about that we can't post bench racing. I will make sure this won't happen in the future. Thanks.

silverarrow
01-26-2005, 04:48 AM
Pics, vids, specs, times?

http://www.3sgteplanet.com/gallery/album05/DCP_6700

http://www.3sgteplanet.com/gallery/album05/DCP_6701

http://www.3sgteplanet.com/gallery/album05/DCP_6702

No engine pics as there's nothing to show in there LoL besides the Koyo radiator. I'm sure everyone on here already knows how sr20 engine bays look like. This is just like any other typical engine bay.

Specs when I did a 15.038 at 91 mph w/ 2.2 60ft:

2200 ft above sea level
105+ degree day
I forgot humidity but it was BURNING HOT!!!

K&N filter only
stock boost
stock smic
stock turbo
stock exhaust

Current Specs are unknown. Haven't had a chance to race it.
Mods are:

Greddy vspl fmic
AVCR 10 low and 14 high
5zigen dp
5zigen Rocket catback exhaust
Nismo engine/transmission mounts
ACT street/strip clutch
intrax springs and kyb gr2 struts(not good to drag with, prefer Adjustable shocks)
Pilot short shifter
Tires are now the Falken Ziex 512s 225/50/16(should have went with 45 series) in rear and 205/50/16 in rear.
Nismo 2 way LSD

Basic bolt ons only.

silverarrow
01-26-2005, 04:51 AM
sr20det are a high rev motor compare to the 3sgte so, IMO maybe the sr20 well have a harder time to run 13 then a 3sgte.

Hey Sean thanks for not closing the thread, Sorry about it but I forgot about that we can't post bench racing. I will make sure this won't happen in the future. Thanks.

SR20s are higher revving motors, but honestly they're like DSMs. You can squeeze easy hp out of these engines and make them fast. They're just as easily capable of 13s like any other 4 cyl turbo engine. It's all on the DRIVER(KEY THING)!

Sean
01-26-2005, 08:12 PM
Beautiful car man! That front mount really looks viscous :bowdown:

Though, the trap speeds your getting seem to be pretty damn low. The NA SR20's i was playing with at the track were trapping around 98, and were in the 14's. Not trying to knock your car down, but is she up to par maintenance wise? I realize you were at 2200 feet on a hot humid day....

Regardless, keep us updated on your next track visit, it sounds to me like your hunting for 13's with your current mods. Should be attainable! :wiggle:

silverarrow
01-27-2005, 03:23 AM
Thanks for the compliment man. Spent four crazy years on this s13.

Very up to par maintenance wise now LoL. Then the idle was still a bit jumpy even with perfect timing and perfect compression. And my setup is capable of 13s, but at this sea level the fastest I'll get is probably low 14s high 13s if I get a good launch. Haven't had a chance to get back out there, soonest would be early summer. Thanks for the support Sean.

Zeus
01-29-2005, 08:35 AM
ive got an sr20det swapped s12

i love the sr and i have it primarily set up for autox

unfortunately i have an open diff and 205's for tires so it isnt the best for drag racing... the best 60 ft ive managed so far is a 2.3 :S on that run i ended up with a 14.6 at 98mph mods.. fmic ehxuast intake and 13psi the track was at sea level but temps were nearing 40 degrees celcius on the track YIKES!

one thing about a stock turbo'd sr20 is that the t25 is so small! its great for autox but it spikes and falls off so fast... in that way i would give an edge to a swapped celica i know the ct26 isnt much better but you can get more boost out of it

Sean
01-29-2005, 09:21 AM
Good point Zeus! I was thinking about you when this thread popped up!!!


Still though, 98mph trap speed.... Im going to give a huge edge to the swapped celica. I had no problems trapping 101 dead stock. ET's are an EXCELLENT indicator of power, and from that indication, swappi celi has got it.

Guys, im very drunk right now, so, please excuse anything.

Zeus
01-29-2005, 05:47 PM
Guys, im very drunk right now, so, please excuse anything.

:hehe:

yeah i think stock for stock a swapped celica should win... once people start changing turbos its anyones game... even if i put on a larger turbo and just kept the boost down i would still gain a lot of top end so at that point who knows

also it seems that the stock ecu on an sr20det is very conservative... so if you see someone with an ems (not that this is easy to spot :D) then ide also say look out

hobbie2k
02-06-2005, 05:41 AM
:hehe:

yeah i think stock for stock a swapped celica should win... once people start changing turbos its anyones game... even if i put on a larger turbo and just kept the boost down i would still gain a lot of top end so at that point who knows

also it seems that the stock ecu on an sr20det is very conservative... so if you see someone with an ems (not that this is easy to spot :D) then ide also say look out

Stock for stock S13 (with an S13 SR20DET) vs. FWD 3sgte swap. I would give the nod to the celica (though a better driver behind the S13 could change things). In any case it would be very close. I've seen lightly modded authentic Silvias go up against similarly modded GT4s, the GT4s had the launch, but then the Silvia reeled them in and would usually pass (much lighter wieght), but I've never seen one head-to-head with a FWD version. In Japan and Australia there are a lot of 400+hp SR20DETs being daily-driven, Most seeing low to mid 11s.

The early SRs did have a VERY conservative stock setup, and I've never driven a 3sgte powered car before (so I don't know how rev happy they are) but stock SR20s are really not that happy above 6,500rpms. Then tend to be comfortable making a wide powerband in the midrange. If you want a top end screamer you go for a 13B or an RB26 :)

Conclusion: Stock for stock, the 3sgte probably holds the edge due to more aggresive tuning and bigger turbo, but dollar for dollar, you'll get a lot more from the SR20 (largely due to better aftermarket support).

hobbie2k
02-06-2005, 05:46 AM
quick side note. The transverse version of the SR20DET (especially the version in the Pulsar GTi-R) is significantly superior to the early longitudinal mount versions. Some people say the GTi-R has the BEST SR motor ever put into a production car. So if we compared a 3sgte swapped Celica to a SR20DET swapped Sentra, I would give the nod to the Sentra.

Then again, you can't really drift the Celica or the Sentra :D

hobbie2k
02-06-2005, 05:53 AM
another quick side note. The early SR20DETs (with a red valve cover "redtop") were not as smooth or powerful stock for stock as the later SR20DETs (with a grey valve cover "blacktop"). A later SR20DET swapped into an S13 would probably have it over the 3sgte swap. However, once you start modifying them, the blacktop's advantages are nullified.

Also, the S13 coupes are quite a bit lighter than either the fastbacks or convertibles, they are also stiffer so they make the best platforms for a swap (they also hold their value the least so they're generally cheaper). The '91 later versions are best for the SR swap while the '89-'90 versions take better to the CA18DET (which is actually quite underrated as a sporting motor).

hobbie2k
02-06-2005, 08:11 PM
Taken from Speed Magazine: Oct-Nov 2003

Michael's 180SX turning 310Kw (about 420hp) on the chassis dyno begs the question "How much power will an SR20DET make before it quite literally poops itself?" The answer isn't as simple.

The biggie is RPM. Punch big revs through an SR20DET and the valve train, even strengthened with a solid lifter "lash killer kit" and upgraded rocker arms, is still susceptible to nasty harmonics and rocker geometry. This particular engine hits the hard cut at 7600rpm, which is all it needs, once the turbocharger has been carefully fettled to run out of flow potential before metallurgy. Install a bigger turbo, longer duration cams, pull it to 9500rpm, and get ready to sweep the SR off the floor.

Detonation is the other factor. Stop the engine from pinging and power potential soars. That's why using a PowerFC management system with built in knock detection makes sense. A big Bosch fuel pump and massive injectors that are only just ticking over at full noise ensure that detonation invoked by a "lean out" can never ruin the fun.

The limit then? Having already seen completely stock GT-R engines turn 450Kw (650hp) reliably, ou would have to figure that a turbocharged SR20DET capable of supplying the needed boost under 8000rpm would reach near on 380-400Kw (550-580hp) without nitrous. Now that's something we would love to see!

Soreballz
02-09-2005, 11:38 AM
ive got an sr20det swapped s12
YES! Personally, I like the looks of the s12 more than the s13... except the s12 coupe. That thing looks terrible.
My friend's neighbor has an s12 turbo (ca18et) thats been sitting in their driveway covered up and untouched for more than 6 years. I want it. Swap in either the sr20 or a ca18det, track down an LSD rear-end, and I'd be good to go racing. :D

Anywho, soory for the minor hijack. Carry on.

Zeus
02-15-2005, 07:01 AM
hobbie you are on the money for the most part

i guess i should specify... i was talking about red tops from the s13... if it was a black top from an s14 or s15 then i would definately say the sr no question... the later verions came with the t28turbo rather than the t25 so they have a MUCH better turbo at that point... couple that with larger injectors and basically you have a 3rd gen 3sgte... so not really a fiar comparison i guess

i think the gtir was rated at 280hp right

where the highest the longitudinal was rated was 250 so yeah you would be right in say they are the "best"

and thanks... i like the s12 its a much smaller car... i just wish that meant it was lighter :P

Punisher
02-22-2005, 04:28 AM
I think the lesson learned for a FWD car is to run stiffer springs in the rear so that you don't rock back as much.. However, that very well may eff up the handling in cornering.. But if we just talk straight line it's fine.. The best bet is AWD :)

fiveSFE
08-29-2005, 09:11 PM
I think the lesson learned for a FWD car is to run stiffer springs in the rear so that you don't rock back as much.. However, that very well may eff up the handling in cornering.. But if we just talk straight line it's fine.. The best bet is AWD :)

yes you cant go wrong wit awd!

Sean
08-29-2005, 09:15 PM
Why did you dig this thread back up?

fiveSFE
08-29-2005, 11:28 PM
my bad, i was searching, and i didnt see the date till after the post

Sean
08-29-2005, 11:33 PM
lol, it happens

worse things have been done :)

gt4wannabe
08-30-2005, 05:54 PM
Well personally i have a friend who owns a 1996 240SX with SR20DET redtop and i tell you that thing is quick. From what i've seen and heard the 240's with SR's (STOCK) run anywhere from 13.6-14.3 depending on the driver and the engine itself. On the other hand the All-Trac i believe run 14.3-14.5 stock. But since the All-trac are about 300lbs heavier than any FWD 3sgte swapped celi i'd say it be very close run between the two cars but i believe the SR will slowly walk away in the middle of 3rd gear. But heres a little link to a few SR videos racing SRT-4's.... you can see how fast the SR pulls away from the srt's..... www.srvids.com

gt4wannabe
08-30-2005, 05:56 PM
oh wait correction www.srvidz.com

gt4wannabe
08-30-2005, 05:58 PM
actually they don't have the videos up anymore but i've got the clips i'll post them up and you guys can watch them.

bloodredgt
08-30-2005, 11:47 PM
in physics i learned that pulling is more energy efficient that pushing... :P

I'd rather have a RWD though. They're just more fun to play with and standing burnouts are easily achieved.

Azzazzyn
08-31-2005, 01:12 AM
and i'm faced with the decision of rebuilding my ka or swapping an sr..

Luni
08-31-2005, 01:19 AM
Alltracs dont run 14.5 stock. Theyre a low 15 second car in the quarter.

An MR2 turbo has a hard time running a 14.5 stock and its almost a full second quicker to 60.

I know shit about nissans tho.

tealterror
04-02-2006, 03:33 AM
I have driven a 95200sx with the sr20det bluebird swap and it feel quicker off boost than my 5sfte but it some how runs out of steam. we raced from 60mph and I teared his coat ! we run from stand still and he got the jump on me until i got in third gear and the rest was history. I was running 7psi and he was running 12psi. He has now upgraded to a t28 and i am about to get a turbo upgrade some bigger ibjectors and a pump. let see how that goes.

Lagos
04-02-2006, 04:34 AM
you said 5sfTe in the thread but 3sgte in the topic? what do u have?