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lburner
09-26-2006, 07:44 PM
THE TRUTH ABOUT GOING CARLESS
TEXT BY RYAN MCKEY

THE PROBLEM
More exhaust backpressure generally means less horsepower, and a stock catalytic converter is often the greatest source of backpressure in an exhaust system. So it’s no wonder the catalytic is often tossed in favor of an eBay “test pipe” when a perfomace-minded owner starts itching for a little more power. But there are a few downsides to de-catting a car – the big one being that it’s illegal.

Hell bent on wrangling every last horsepower out of their steeds, power mongers often run sans-converter on the street; risking tickets, huge fines or even impoundment of their vehicles. But just how much power are they gaining, and is it really worth the risk? If the thought of surrendering your car to the local towing yard keeps you from yanking your converter, there still may be a way to make more power and not break the law.

Aftermarket catalytic converter manufacturers claim their products can reduce backpressure, helping to free up exhaust flow and make more power. They may have fancy CFM flow graphs and other fancy data to back those claims, But can these kitties really flow better than the OEM pieces? And, how do they compare to the good ol test pipe, in terms of horsepower?

To answer these questions, we took a lightly-modded 1999 Honda Civic SI and did four back-to-back dyno pulls: one with the stock cart, one with a test-pipe, and two pulls with OBD II approved aftermarket high-flow cats. Read on and see with your own eyes how powerful you can become by killing your cat.

THE TEST
Breathing through an aftermarket intake, header and cat-back exhaust sys-tem, our civic mule put mule put down a respectable 147hp and 105 lb-ft to the front wheels on K&N Engineering’s dyno. Not too shabby, considering the car was still huffing through the stock OEM catalytic converter. Eager to see what we could gain by ucorking the exhaust, we bolted on the first aftermarket cats.

Aftermarket high-flow cats come with two different types of guts, metallic and ceramic. The ceramic type is less expensive to manufacture and will melt and fail at lower temperatures – not ideal for high performance applications. The metallic honeycombs can withstand the higher temperatures and richer air-fuel mixtures but are more expensive to make and subsequently cost more. But cost isn’t the only factor to consider if you find yourself replacing the cat. It’s important to ensure that you have the correct type of converter for your application. If your car is OBD I compliant, you can use any EPA or CARB approved OBD I converter. If your car is OBD II compliant, your cat must be OBD II approved. As a general rule any car 1996 or newer is OBD II and any car 1995 older is OBD I. However, some cars were OBD II compliant as early as 1994, so double-check the underhood emissions sticker. The difference between OBD I and OBD II cats is bigger than you might think. OBD II cats are required to remove about 90 percent of emissions, while the OBD II cats are only required to remove 70 recent. So, put an OBD I cat on an OBD II car and you might fail your emissions testing.

After removing the OEM cat, we welded and bolted up and OBD II Magnaflow ceramic-core catalytic converter in place of the stock one With the Magnaflow cat installed, the Honda turned the rollers to the tune of 150hp and 107 lb-ft to the front wheels. Obviously this car really can flow more than stock.

Next up was the metallic care Megnaflow OBD II cat. Because metallic cats can take more abuse and richer AFRs (and generally flow more), these are often the choice of the performance-minded tuner. After much cursing and bit of chaared flesh, we put the fancy metallic-core cat onto the Civic. Apparently, the metallic core unit does indeed flow slightly better than the ceramic unit. But when we say slight, we mean slight. The metallic core cat netted us a 1hp gain (to 151) and no icrease in torque over the ceramic core. So, unless you are running a rich AFR (like in a boosted application) the extra cost of the metallic core might not be worth it. However, if your are running a rich mixture, the mixture, the metallic cat is still your best bet.

With the testing of all there cats out of the way, it was time to unplug the exhaust and let her rip without that pesky brick in the exhaust. No matter how you cut it, a cat is a restriction and costs power, right? With the moment of truth at hand, we bolted in our eagerly by the dyno’s monitor, waiting to see the results. Wait…….. here it comes 152hp and 108 lb-ft – a gain of one measly horsepower and one lb-ft to torque at the cost of breaking the law.

THE LOWDOWN
Now that we’ve armed you with the facts, you should be ready to make the correct decision should you need to replace your cat. Whether or not you choose to run a cat is between you and Johnny Law. But when you consider the potential gains versus the costs, it hardly seems worth risking getting caught. With a difference of only 1hp between a straight pipe and a 49-state LEGAL cat, it seems foolish to flaunt the law and pollute the air that we all breathe. Hell, if you are only looking for those kinds of gains, just loose 10 pounds – that alone will make your car faster than adding 1 measly HP.

The 5hp gained from losing the factory cat for the metallic one is substantial. If the engine were to later receive more extensive mods, the benefits would probably be even greater. What it all boils down to is that a good aftermarket High-flow cat can indeed flow better than a stock unit, and almost as well as a straight pipe. When you can have all the benefits of removing the cat without the risk of getting busted, its kind of like having your cake and eating it too..

A CAVEAT
Before you go off all willy-nilly and replace your cat, there are a few things you should understand first. Contrary to popular belief, not all cats are created equally. The stock factory cats usually do the best job of cleaning up the exhaust, but often at the cost of high backpressure. Aftermarket cat flow and ability to pass emissions testing can be iffy because quality varies greatly. In an effort to save money, some manufacturers cut corners and don’t include enough of the agents that actually catalyze and create the heat to burn up the pollutants. Install one of these cats and you might not pass smog. This is why it’s important to pick one that is CARB or EPR complaint. These cats have been independently tested and should pass an emissions test…….

partyball
10-02-2006, 03:40 AM
My only question is would the horse power gains change on a car making a great deal more power? Very good post though I'm glad someone cleared this up for all the people in favor of running no cat for "large" horsepower gains.

Luni
10-02-2006, 03:55 AM
Ill bet the dyno test would show in favor of a turboed car. Being that we have so many turboed cars on this site Im not sure how useful this really is.

I thought it was a no brainer, NA cars DONT benefit much from a "high flow" or test pipe setup. Turbo cars on the other hand do.

tankd0g
10-02-2006, 04:21 AM
My rav4 did, but that's because all the oil it burns at startup had plugged the cat pretty good :)

2kSnakEater
10-02-2006, 04:01 PM
That was all done on a freaking honda, thats a car that was NOT designed to even be a hint of performance in it. They should of done that test on a V8 or Turbo 4cyl like the All-Trac or a Mitsu GST/X.

This test = Fail


and since I live in florida I will be one of those people running with a gutted kittah or orly pipes.

caneman
10-02-2006, 04:26 PM
A related question: I think that my Cat may be leaking. I think that I saw a puff of smoke come from under the heat shield (down below the EM) the other day. It's original, 163,000 miles. I haven't pulled stuff apart to check yet, but I have a question for you guys.

I checked the parts suppliers and got sick when I saw the price of an OEM replacement for the Cat ($400+US) that attaches to the bottom of the exhaust manifold, versus a "universal" that gets installed in the middle of the pipe running under the car.

What's the least expensive, but quality way to replace a bad OEM Cat? If you recommend a quality under-the-car universal, how do I handle the missing piece where the old OEM Cat went? TIA.

tankd0g
10-02-2006, 04:33 PM
A related question: I think that my Cat may be leaking. I think that I saw a puff of smoke come from under the heat shield (down below the EM) the other day. It's original, 163,000 miles. I haven't pulled stuff apart to check yet, but I have a question for you guys.

I checked the parts suppliers and got sick when I saw the price of an OEM replacement for the Cat ($400+US) that attaches to the bottom of the exhaust manifold, versus a "universal" that gets installed in the middle of the pipe running under the car.

What's the least expensive, but quality way to replace a bad OEM Cat? If you recommend a quality under-the-car universal, how do I handle the missing piece where the old OEM Cat went? TIA.


Good time to buy a header me thinks :)

T-spoon
10-02-2006, 06:28 PM
A related question: I think that my Cat may be leaking. I think that I saw a puff of smoke come from under the heat shield (down below the EM) the other day. It's original, 163,000 miles. I haven't pulled stuff apart to check yet, but I have a question for you guys.

I checked the parts suppliers and got sick when I saw the price of an OEM replacement for the Cat ($400+US) that attaches to the bottom of the exhaust manifold, versus a "universal" that gets installed in the middle of the pipe running under the car.

What's the least expensive, but quality way to replace a bad OEM Cat? If you recommend a quality under-the-car universal, how do I handle the missing piece where the old OEM Cat went? TIA.

Well, it's not legal, but you can remove the OEM cat material from inside the pipe so that you have the shell there where it always was and just have the aftermarket welded in wherever.

ciento44
10-02-2006, 06:59 PM
Just cut the whole darn thing off. Open header wins. :)
Burns valves... but wins, regardless.

2kSnakEater
10-02-2006, 07:04 PM
caneman, your in Florida, GUT THE BITCH!

broderp
10-03-2006, 12:10 AM
So what did we really learn?

5HP? It seems that it's not even worth the cost of the legal replacement cats, unless your racing the car and it's not a street-legal machine.

I'd bet a good driver can more than make up for 5 measly HP.

I'll keep mine stock cat thank you.

Luni
10-03-2006, 02:39 AM
Snake man did yuo not read the dyno?

That engine is a good engine man. It totally is performance designed.

You can tell that cause it reported 150whp. Thats a performance designed engine. More performance in that engine than 90 percent of whats in a 3rd through 6th gen celica.

On an NA car I totally believe that test. Theres no way the engine generates the type of pressure required to blow through and produce backpressure in a healthy cat. Thats why you wont see much gains by doing an exhaust system or even an intake until you install what? Thats right. A header. A good one.

On a turbo car this test is out the window.

Caneman what Id recommend doing is finding someone who has just swapped their car and getting their stock cat off them.

Someone on this board surely has a manifold/cat with less miles on it than yours.

KoreanJoey
10-03-2006, 02:42 AM
Thats why you wont see much gains by doing an exhaust system or even an intake until you install what? Thats right. A header. A good one.


Shiny HKS Header FTW!

Blackcloud
10-03-2006, 03:39 AM
I want to gut the cats on my truck.

but im pushing like 350hp, I wonder what the tests would show for that

hobbie2k
10-03-2006, 04:23 AM
Any car can be a performance machine, and any car can be a dog. Ever looked at a mid 80s F-body? Even the V8 versions had less power than a Honda H22A (2.2L L4) from just a few years later.

And some "econoboxes" have also proven to be some of the greatest performance cars of all time. VW Rabbit GTi anyone? May not be very fast, but it is a purer driver's car than any F-body (btw, I own a Chevy, so don't think I'm just a domestic basher). Or what about the Morris Mini (and BMW Mini), about the only motor vehicle that is more connected to the road is a racing kart.

Every read about Conrad's Starlet? The Starlet was in the same class as a Geo Metro, and Conrad's Starlet would wail on anyone here on the autocross course. And the Geo Metro itself, it's known as a Suzuki Swift in Japan where they are regularly raced and autocrossed and are quite...well...swift.

I could go on and on (original SE-R, Mazda Miata, Mazdaspeed3, BMW M3, SRT-4, AE86, etc). Any car can be a serious performance machine.

More people should be open to other's opinions and experiences. The Honda crew can get serious performance and serious speed out of tiny engines, imagine if you used their knowledge on a larger displacement motor. Likewise, the big block domestic musclecar guys have been doing auto modding for longer than any other group (save the hot rodders), and since all motors work on the same basic principles they can teach us a lot about our motors.

Learn about other cars and you might just learn more about yours.

burnyd
10-03-2006, 04:35 AM
Any car can be a performance machine, and any car can be a dog. Ever looked at a mid 80s F-body? Even the V8 versions had less power than a Honda H22A (2.2L L4) from just a few years later.

I think you missed the point here.... F-body is made for performance its not made to be a economy box car.......... Dee dee dee is saying all these economy cars cant go fast in a straight line..........

Lagos
10-03-2006, 04:39 AM
this thread is being closed due to immature behavior. insulting members and posting random pictures to try to out do the other guy, doesn't fly in the General Discussion forum. this isn't offtopic !

thread closed

Lagos
10-03-2006, 05:25 AM
This thread has been cleaned up and is now being reopened. Please keep all posts ON TOPIC, and do NOT insult other members, just because they have a different opinion then you.

Murgatroy
10-03-2006, 08:09 AM
A related question: I think that my Cat may be leaking. I think that I saw a puff of smoke come from under the heat shield (down below the EM) the other day. It's original, 163,000 miles. I haven't pulled stuff apart to check yet, but I have a question for you guys.

I checked the parts suppliers and got sick when I saw the price of an OEM replacement for the Cat ($400+US) that attaches to the bottom of the exhaust manifold, versus a "universal" that gets installed in the middle of the pipe running under the car.

What's the least expensive, but quality way to replace a bad OEM Cat? If you recommend a quality under-the-car universal, how do I handle the missing piece where the old OEM Cat went? TIA.
You can go with a universal under the car, as I have always run catless, I don't know any brands to suggest. They are available. They do perform thier function, however, they will not always be good enough for smog tests. Visual, yes.

You can replace the factory manifold/cat piece with either an aftermarket header, or a later model Camry header. Both perform about the same.

I do not recomed gutting the factory manifold/cat and running it that way. There is a very very long drama fest involving that from a year or so ago.
Here is that thread. (http://celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6937&highlight=Gutted)

Any decent muffler shop would be able to fit the pieces on with little hassle. And it will help improve gas mileage as well as broaden you power band. Results will not be very high though. But enough.

2kSnakEater
10-03-2006, 10:59 PM
I think you missed the point here.... F-body is made for performance its not made to be a economy box car.......... Dee dee dee is saying all these economy cars cant go fast in a straight line..........


I never said that they cannot go in a straight line, anything can be made to be fast, if you throw enought money at it. They just did this test on the worst car posible, and I think they did it on purpose, if they did it on a V8 or an FI engine and they actualy got 10hp-30hp difference do you know how many kids in their civics would go out and gut their cat the next day?

Cavanagh
10-03-2006, 11:41 PM
Well, because the car is "popular" its a bad test subject? Get outta here with that bs.

GlHlOST
10-03-2006, 11:43 PM
I'm sry Caveman but you really dont know what your talking about right now

KoreanJoey
10-03-2006, 11:44 PM
You guys need to chill out... your conversation has 0 purpose in this thread.

Cavanagh
10-03-2006, 11:49 PM
Yet his posts stay. :squint:

Luni
10-03-2006, 11:54 PM
You guys are doing an awesome job of thread jacking this and Id like it to stop.

Point being engines are engines. They are very similiar. The physics and precepts of operation are uniform and results will be similiar for the same modification between engines of the same size/output.

Arguing about engines in other class in relation to the test subject is dumb.

The only variable in this thing is boost. Those people who have turbos need not worry about whats in this thread, as their exhaust system most likely is a bottleneck in their performance, and the cat is a bottleneck in the exhaust system.

Lagos
10-04-2006, 12:06 AM
this post is about the benefit/drawback of cats on your tipical 4cly NA powered car, with nothing more then intake and exhaust mods. this would apply to 4cly hondas, celicas,etc...

the rules change when you go to a FI car, a v6 or a v8.

i think the point of this thread is to show people that they don't need to waste their money on a test pipe or catless exhaust in a normal NA 4cly car.

2kSnakEater
10-04-2006, 12:35 AM
no, Luni and Lagos your both wrong. The Title of the thread is:

The truth about going catless

and if you read the entire section


THE PROBLEM
More exhaust backpressure generally means less horsepower, and a stock catalytic converter is often the greatest source of backpressure in an exhaust system. So it’s no wonder the catalytic is often tossed in favor of an eBay “test pipe” when a perfomace-minded owner starts itching for a little more power. But there are a few downsides to de-catting a car – the big one being that it’s illegal.


I dont see anything here stating that this is a 4cyl N/A only thread, All I see was that Cavafag got all asshurt because I said that they should of done the Test on a performance minded car instead of some pathetic 140hp pos.

hobbie2k
10-04-2006, 12:36 AM
i think the point of this thread is to show people that they don't need to waste their money on a test pipe or catless exhaust in a normal NA 4cly car.

Or rather, that gutting your cat or getting a test pipe isn't worth the risk of tickets and the environmental damage, especially when the advantage over a hi-flow cat is less than one percent.

The principles (and ultimately, the results) will be roughly the same whether you're talking 50cc or 6000cc. 1hp on that honda is less than 1% gain. On a 6.0 GTO that equates to only about 4hp. All in all it's pretty much meaningless.

Cavanagh
10-04-2006, 12:44 AM
no, Luni and Lagos your both wrong. The Title of the thread is:

The truth about going catless

and if you read the entire section




I dont see anything here stating that this is a 4cyl N/A only thread, All I see was that Cavafag got all asshurt because I said that they should of done the Test on a performance minded car instead of some pathetic 140hp pos.


I think they did it on a honda because the majority or tuners have hondas and it would be more relevent....hm....celicas are 103 and 135 hp cars...there econoboxes, but i guess since you own one, its not all the sudden.

Good review....i must say.

hehe, btw....im now gay because i have differents beliefs on cars then you? Your the immature acting one, c'mon now.

MrWOT
10-04-2006, 03:04 AM
Or rather, that gutting your cat or getting a test pipe isn't worth the risk of tickets and the environmental damage, especially when the advantage over a hi-flow cat is less than one percent.

The principles (and ultimately, the results) will be roughly the same whether you're talking 50cc or 6000cc. 1hp on that honda is less than 1% gain. On a 6.0 GTO that equates to only about 4hp. All in all it's pretty much meaningless.

Sorry man, but this in incorrect. The gain in power depends on the vehicle being modified, and the exhaust system in question. THAT IS ALL. It doesn't matter what the displacement of the engine is, it matters how the FACTORY system was designed. For example, back when my SHO was near stock, we picked up about 11hp on the top end by replacing the factory cats with high flowing units, because the factory exhaust was awful. Comparing one car to another is entirely meaningless, and basing the entire idea of restrictive converters on the results of a few cars is POINTLESS. Am I getting through here? If you want to know if your cat is restrictive, probe your exhaust system right before the cat, and right after it, and see what the pressure differential is. Unless you do this, you haven't a clue.

GlHlOST
10-04-2006, 03:06 AM
^^^ well put by WOTster

Luni
10-04-2006, 03:51 AM
Hey Snake.

Theres better ways to go about having a discussion and an argument online than resorting to name calling.

Consider this a warning.

Next time someone complains about your actions and I witness it firsthand, you will be taking short little vacation.

In fact, this is a warning to all you guys who are resorting to flaming each other back and fourth with name calling.

That kind of crap belongs in OT. Dont participate in a tech type thread if you cant conduct yourselves in a more positive, professional type manner.

Luni
10-04-2006, 03:53 AM
Back on topic, Snake, I said it was mostly for a 4 banger cause if you look at the context of the dyno, of course you may stand to gain more by opening up a V8 with an already crappy exhaust system. Or as WOT said, getting 11hp on his SHO.

I generalized it in this thread because 99 percent of the people on this site own what? Eco box crap 4 cylinders as you put it.

hobbie2k
10-04-2006, 04:55 AM
Sorry man, but this in incorrect. The gain in power depends on the vehicle being modified, and the exhaust system in question. THAT IS ALL. It doesn't matter what the displacement of the engine is, it matters how the FACTORY system was designed. For example, back when my SHO was near stock, we picked up about 11hp on the top end by replacing the factory cats with high flowing units, because the factory exhaust was awful. Comparing one car to another is entirely meaningless, and basing the entire idea of restrictive converters on the results of a few cars is POINTLESS. Am I getting through here? If you want to know if your cat is restrictive, probe your exhaust system right before the cat, and right after it, and see what the pressure differential is. Unless you do this, you haven't a clue.

Well, excuse me for generalizing. If what you say is true than no one has any right to give anyone any advice on their vehicles because their conditions will never be exactly the same as yours.

The point I was making is in no way dependant on the vehicle (or exhaust system) in question. The article in the beginning of the thread wasn't about the cat's effect on a Honda vs an SHO. It was about a good hi-flow cat vs a testpipe/gutted cat. According the their results the difference between the two is virtually meaningless and (like I said) indicates that the increase in power afforded by the test pipe is not worth the increased pollution and risk of fines.

The results (WHEN YOU COMPARE A HI-FLOW WITH A TEST PIPE [caps make you understand better, right?]) should generally be proportionally similar no matter what engine/exhaust system you have.

The point of making the displacement comparison was to incorporate the earlier thread jacking subject (whether this test should have been performed on a sports car rather than an "econobox") into some semblance of relevance, by stating that this test is relevant no matter what engine it's tested on.

No matter what your specific performance numbers state the results will still be proportionally similar.

Luni
10-04-2006, 05:32 PM
Dude, you also need to remember that B16a is NOT an econobox engine man.

Civic SI is not an econobox. I dont consider a 7th gen GTS an econobox either. Nor do I consider preuldes, or anything else with vtec for that matter an econobox (unless its sohc vtec).

2kSnakEater
10-04-2006, 05:40 PM
Dude, you also need to remember that B16a is NOT an econobox engine man.

Civic SI is not an econobox. I dont consider a 7th gen GTS an econobox either. Nor do I consider preuldes, or anything else with vtec for that matter an econobox (unless its sohc vtec).

+1 - Civic, Iv driven some SI's and never liked them. The Celica was never released as a 4 door and were designed as sporty 4 bangers, only the ST designation of Celica's were uter ****. I like my GTS but it doesnt have the power I wanted, hence the All-Trac

Luni
10-04-2006, 05:43 PM
I dont understand your post.

Civic SIs arent 4 door cars. And the B16a is not an econobox engine. That would be like saying an ST swapped with a blacktop is an econobox still.

2kSnakEater
10-04-2006, 06:42 PM
Right but they release the Civic in a 4 door configuration, and Si were only 2 doors? how come the Integra Type R was available in 2 and 4 door? I thought The SI was the same as Type R?

T-spoon
10-04-2006, 06:44 PM
Well, excuse me for generalizing. If what you say is true than no one has any right to give anyone any advice on their vehicles because their conditions will never be exactly the same as yours.

The point I was making is in no way dependant on the vehicle (or exhaust system) in question. The article in the beginning of the thread wasn't about the cat's effect on a Honda vs an SHO. It was about a good hi-flow cat vs a testpipe/gutted cat. According the their results the difference between the two is virtually meaningless and (like I said) indicates that the increase in power afforded by the test pipe is not worth the increased pollution and risk of fines.

The results (WHEN YOU COMPARE A HI-FLOW WITH A TEST PIPE [caps make you understand better, right?]) should generally be proportionally similar no matter what engine/exhaust system you have.

The point of making the displacement comparison was to incorporate the earlier thread jacking subject (whether this test should have been performed on a sports car rather than an "econobox") into some semblance of relevance, by stating that this test is relevant no matter what engine it's tested on.

No matter what your specific performance numbers state the results will still be proportionally similar.


The point is that what that test shows is that the test vehicle does not have significant restriction in the exhaust system at the cat. That's really all it indicates. Extrapolating that into no vehicle will gain significantly by changing the cat is very fault logic. If you DO have a vehicle with a very restrictive cat, then you will see much greater gains by changing it than you will see on a car that does not have a restrictive cat. WOT is pointing out that the test is not valid because not all vehicles have the same pressure/cat restriction ratio as the tested vehicle.

Luni
10-04-2006, 07:18 PM
Right but they release the Civic in a 4 door configuration, and Si were only 2 doors? how come the Integra Type R was available in 2 and 4 door? I thought The SI was the same as Type R?


ITR wasnt available in 4 door here.

Youre thinking the GSR.

Civic SIs werent either.

GlHlOST
10-04-2006, 07:48 PM
I never remeber a 4-door tegi Type R nowhere... and Si is deff not the same as type R

burnyd
10-04-2006, 10:21 PM
I never said that they cannot go in a straight line, anything can be made to be fast, if you throw enought money at it. They just did this test on the worst car posible, and I think they did it on purpose, if they did it on a V8 or an FI engine and they actualy got 10hp-30hp difference do you know how many kids in their civics would go out and gut their cat the next day?


bottom line.... wether its 1 hp on a 1.6l sohc engine or 10 on a 5.7l hp v8 gain = gain = gain....

Now on a boosted car.... gutting a cat / running a straight pipe is such a good idea. It takes away all that back pressure and the turbo breaths better. I dont have to really get into it but you should know what I meen.

ciento44
10-04-2006, 10:34 PM
Right but they release the Civic in a 4 door configuration, and Si were only 2 doors? how come the Integra Type R was available in 2 and 4 door? I thought The SI was the same as Type R?

Now that we're taking this topic way off into the wilderness again....

Civic does not = integra. Two entirely different cars.

There is no integra Si, but there is a Civic Type R, just not in the US.

There is no point in comparing the two cars.

Again... Si does NOT equal Type R.

celica9303
10-05-2006, 12:16 AM
the b16a is an awsome engine i had one in my old school hatchback and ran all over camaro and firebirds, due to the weight difference. (and the turbo system 14psi) but eitherway this thread isnt about honda vs. GM it about cat or no cat... plese keep it on topic snake.....i still have access to the honda so if you wanna come all the way to ohio with the firbird or the alltrac the b16 will own both of them on the strip or the street. so im leaving this thread and not reading it anymore due to snakes immaturness..... and the type R and the si are bascicly the same car but different programming in the ecu and the type r motor depending on which year was beefer than the si due to the restrictions the us puts on it cars

jason
10-05-2006, 01:11 AM
I'm not going to pretend I read all the posts in this thread. I am, however, getting my high-flow cat removed here in a couple weeks, my FMIC piped (turbo clocked), and my boost raised. I will dyno before and after all of these and posts the graphs so you guys can see the power gains offered by all upgrades. Look for 'em-

ciento44
10-05-2006, 01:42 AM
the b16a is an awsome engine i had one in my old school hatchback and ran all over camaro and firebirds, due to the weight difference. (and the turbo system 14psi) but eitherway this thread isnt about honda vs. GM it about cat or no cat... plese keep it on topic snake.....i still have access to the honda so if you wanna come all the way to ohio with the firbird or the alltrac the b16 will own both of them on the strip or the street. so im leaving this thread and not reading it anymore due to snakes immaturness..... and the type R and the si are bascicly the same car but different programming in the ecu and the type r motor depending on which year was beefer than the si due to the restrictions the us puts on it cars


I thought the Civic Si had either a D16Y8, or a B16a depending on generation, and the Teg R had a B18C vtec? I could be wrong... But... enough of jacking. Like Burnyd said, a gain is a gain is a gain. And in an already rather weak engine, 4-5hp is a pretty hefty gain, especially in a light car, for not much money.

I will say that even in my ghetto $4 intake/exhaust, i've noticed a difference in the car. Sure, it sounds terrible, but it does pull quite a bit harder, especially in higher rpms. I seriously doubt that all in all, it made more than 10hp more.

2kSnakEater
10-05-2006, 02:40 PM
I love it how everybody is bliming my immatureness, I simply said that they should of done the test on something that would of yielded more results ie not a N/A 4cyl. Im sorry people got asshurt, Il keep my opinions to my self until I see the Mature ness of Ctech rise.

hobbie2k
10-05-2006, 02:49 PM
The point is that what that test shows is that the test vehicle does not have significant restriction in the exhaust system at the cat. That's really all it indicates. Extrapolating that into no vehicle will gain significantly by changing the cat is very fault logic. If you DO have a vehicle with a very restrictive cat, then you will see much greater gains by changing it than you will see on a car that does not have a restrictive cat. WOT is pointing out that the test is not valid because not all vehicles have the same pressure/cat restriction ratio as the tested vehicle.

But that is NOT what I said.

I said that the results of the test show that replacing your cat with a test pipe creates more pollution and makes you liable for fines, for no real power gain over a good aftermarket high-flow cat.

As long as you get a good quality, properly sized aftermarket hi-flow cat you will see roughly the same power gains as you would with a gutted cat or test pipe. Those gains could be 2hp they could be 15hp dependant on your particlar application (what WOT was saying) when you compare them to the stock cat, but the gains when you compare the hi-flow with the test pipe should be much smaller (within a couple hp).

GlHlOST
10-05-2006, 11:17 PM
I'm not going to pretend I read all the posts in this thread. I am, however, getting my high-flow cat removed here in a couple weeks, my FMIC piped (turbo clocked), and my boost raised. I will dyno before and after all of these and posts the graphs so you guys can see the power gains offered by all upgrades. Look for 'em-
Deff post results as they would prove to be useful for members thinking about upgrades...


I love it how everybody is bliming my immatureness, I simply said that they should of done the test on something that would of yielded more results ie not a N/A 4cyl. Im sorry people got asshurt, Il keep my opinions to my self until I see the Mature ness of Ctech rise.

first of all, no1 is blaming your immatureness. Every1 is rather stating that arguing based on personal opinions is immature.(which is exactly what you were doing with Caveman and others) You did not "simply say" anything, instead, you were arguing and name-calling when people did not agree with your opinion. Hence all the complaints. No1 else here is arguing about their beliefs, rather, having a mature debate on wether or not straight pipes and cat-less systems are worth it or not. The maturity of CTech is fine. It is YOU who needs to raise thier maturity level when trying to post outside of OT. If you have nothing meaningful to post then honestly it would be better if you kept it to yourself or posted in OT. Its nothing against you personally Snake as there are other members who were doing the same thing, so consider this post as regarding all the members and not just you, or in your words... "don't get all asshurt" because I chose to quote you... This post is for every1

Cavanagh
10-06-2006, 03:22 AM
I thought the Civic Si had either a D16Y8, or a B16a depending on generation, and the Teg R had a B18C vtec? I could be wrong... But... enough of jacking. Like Burnyd said, a gain is a gain is a gain. And in an already rather weak engine, 4-5hp is a pretty hefty gain, especially in a light car, for not much money.

:cool: Correct son.

Just to clear things up a bit....
Civics- 2 door coupe and hatch and 4 door coupe
Civic Si-2 door coupe or Hatch
Integ Gsr- 4 or 2 door
Integ Type-R - 2 door only.


I love it how everybody is bliming my immatureness, I simply said that they should of done the test on something that would of yielded more results ie not a N/A 4cyl. Im sorry people got asshurt, Il keep my opinions to my self until I see the Mature ness of Ctech rise.
:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
(in all honesty) What car would you recommend they do this test on then?

celica9303
10-06-2006, 04:08 AM
civic type r-same as si but programed differently and had a diferent motor depending on gen. the motor in the test was a b16a from a 2000 SI

Mr E
10-06-2006, 12:18 PM
Ill bet the dyno test would show in favor of a turboed car. Being that we have so many turboed cars on this site Im not sure how useful this really is.

I thought it was a no brainer, NA cars DONT benefit much from a "high flow" or test pipe setup. Turbo cars on the other hand do.

Agreed. I see significant improvements with the cat gone, and turbo response is also better.

emicen
10-06-2006, 02:48 PM
Any car can be a performance machine, and any car can be a dog. Ever looked at a mid 80s F-body? Even the V8 versions had less power than a Honda H22A (2.2L L4) from just a few years later.

And some "econoboxes" have also proven to be some of the greatest performance cars of all time. VW Rabbit GTi anyone? May not be very fast, but it is a purer driver's car than any F-body (btw, I own a Chevy, so don't think I'm just a domestic basher). Or what about the Morris Mini (and BMW Mini), about the only motor vehicle that is more connected to the road is a racing kart.

Every read about Conrad's Starlet? The Starlet was in the same class as a Geo Metro, and Conrad's Starlet would wail on anyone here on the autocross course. And the Geo Metro itself, it's known as a Suzuki Swift in Japan where they are regularly raced and autocrossed and are quite...well...swift.

I could go on and on (original SE-R, Mazda Miata, Mazdaspeed3, BMW M3, SRT-4, AE86, etc). Any car can be a serious performance machine.

More people should be open to other's opinions and experiences. The Honda crew can get serious performance and serious speed out of tiny engines, imagine if you used their knowledge on a larger displacement motor. Likewise, the big block domestic musclecar guys have been doing auto modding for longer than any other group (save the hot rodders), and since all motors work on the same basic principles they can teach us a lot about our motors.

Learn about other cars and you might just learn more about yours.

Sorry to be the pedant, but the Geo Metro was sold as the Swift in the states. It was also sold as the Swift in Europe and in a 4wd format but Subaru as the Justy. In Japan they were known as the Cultus up until the new model "Swift" was released in 99 in Japan, known in europe and everywhere else as the Wagon R.

Anyhoo, on topic: Hopefully I'm getting the 205 on the dyno mid november with the only change since last time being the addition of a decat pipe so we shall have fairly scientific results to compare for the 3SGTE.

KoreanJoey
10-06-2006, 06:48 PM
:cool:
:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
(in all honesty) What car would you recommend they do this test on then?

Ok Cav, I'd like to think of you as a friend on here but do you know when to shut up?

GlHlOST
10-06-2006, 07:17 PM
nope

ciento44
10-06-2006, 09:09 PM
Lolz.

lburner
10-06-2006, 09:19 PM
This is to funny!!! cant we just all get along..lol

mtp_69_i
10-07-2006, 02:03 AM
"the point is"...

meh, WOT hit it on the head. Some cars were made with restrictive exhausts. Some weren't.

Why are we talking about Hondas?

Murgatroy
10-07-2006, 09:48 AM
The test car used was a Honda. That is where it came from.

mtp_69_i
10-07-2006, 11:02 AM
no shizzle, but this is a celica website. I just find the honda talk useless, contradictory and likely to start flame-wars and bitch-fights. We've established the cat thing is probably a null point. How bout everybody pops a couple chill pills and mellows the hell out?