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primeplaya7
08-09-2006, 06:31 AM
Ok with my car back from the shop and all broken in, i have left myself with a problem. Boost or Bottle? For all of you that haven't read some of my other posts i just had my engine rebuilt and it has 7000 miles on it now. The body is perfect and I would like to do more with the engine. My car as it stands now is:

1992 toyota celica GT Convertible
5sfe
rebuilt motor stock compression pistons stronger main bearings and stronger rings
metal headgasket
apr headbolts 12mm
o-ringed the block
port and polished head
3 angle valve job
competition clutch stage 2 racing clutch
competition clutch lightened flywheel
NGK plugs and wires
Optima red top battery
TWM short shifter
custom CAI
3" stainless steel tubing from the flex pipe back. (hoped of putting turbo on the car so i left the stock exhaust manifold for now with 2 1/4" tubing from manifold to flex pipe and then the 3" stainless from there back. If i get a turbo a custom stainless steel turbo header will be built. If i go bottle then a custom stainless steel header will be made.
3" inlet 4 1/4" outlet stainless steel vibrant muffler angled N1 style.

I am leaning towards the bottle(75 shot max) only because i will not be using it all the time and it is a little cheaper. If i go with the bottle I will not cheap out on anything. All safety components will be installed with all guages being watched at all times. With the turbo i am afraid that without low compression pistons and forged rods the 5sfe will dissapoint me in a huge way. With what i have done or will have done i would like to know what is the safest and cost effective way of going. All comments (positive and negative but be nice) will be appreciated. Please give me your honest detailed opinion on what i should do.

your fellow celica enthusiast

skeptic
08-09-2006, 07:00 AM
IMHO, turbo is better. It's always there and no refilling the bottle. I think there is more potential out of a turbo system as well. However, I wouldn't do it without low compression forged pistons, hardened rods, etc. The turbo would be more expensive and a lot more work.

ciento44
08-09-2006, 07:06 AM
You don't really need to build the engine at all for a turbo setup until you really start to push it, which is kinda silly on a 5sfe, in my opinion.

A turbo setup to push about 7psi should be safe, especially on a fresh engine, and it'll be enough to really make a difference in the car. Everything needed for the setup can be found for fairly cheap, and most of the setup can be done by yourself.

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11045

Give that thread a look-see, just so you can see what you're getting into if you go that route.

The bottle could be fun, but i'm not even totally sure i would trust a 75-shot on a stock 5sfe. But then again, i haven't looked into it a whole lot. I have heard on the last celica forum i was on (celispeed) that you shouldn't go over a 50-shot, but i'd trust what people said here over that number.

That being said, my vote is turbo. :)

Murgatroy
08-09-2006, 07:41 AM
You don't run more than a 50 shot on a stock engine and expect it to live long. Period. No matter how many safety precaution your take it is still gambling every time you hit the go button. I speak from experience.

Turbo is a whole lot more work, and a whole lot more expensive, with a cut in economy and reliablitity. But it is always there and it doesn't need to be refilled.

MrWOT
08-09-2006, 07:48 AM
Since you've already done head work I would definetly go the turbo route. I think with a good intercooler and 7psi you will be quite happy.

91 celica st
08-09-2006, 09:06 AM
well you know that your not really supposed to put nitrus ona car that has no engine managment, its just as safe as turboing a car witout an engine managment

burnyd
08-09-2006, 09:28 AM
Turbo > Nitrous... Whats more work turbo.. what will make your car faster turbo :D.

primeplaya7
08-09-2006, 06:52 PM
obviously the turbo is going to be the better route but i am asking what is the best route with what i have done? for all of u that are saying turbo would u guys turbo your car with what i have done? I would love to turbo the car i am just not sure if the car would handle it with the work i have done to it right now. If you guys think i can safely turbo my car with stock pistons and rods then i will turbo it and gain that 70 something horsepower. What is so bad about running a 50-75 shot of wet or direct port nitrous???? wideband a/f guages and fuel preassure cutoff so if my fuel preasure drops below a certain point it kills the nitrous??? please give me all the information u can about turboing the 5sfe and nitrous on the 5sfe.

Murgatroy
08-09-2006, 08:24 PM
If you are gonna run direct port squeeze, you would be better off with a turbo for the price, they would be within a few hundred dollars of the same price. Nitrous done safely is a great power adder, the problem is, it is rarely ever done safely. A proper install requires another $300-$400 in parts after the 'complete kit.' And if you inject to much nitrous (75 shot) you will create too much pressure in your cylinder and it will go pop. I have seen it done. It is not pretty at all and the force with which it will explode will cause serious damage to your engine AND body. Pistons though a firewall is never a good thing. With cast pistons, the nitrous will eat away at them, eventually creating a big enough of a recess to completely obliterate the piston. If you can properly tune your engine to sip the juice, it will be as safe as mother's milk. I will warn you though, it is addictive since it isn't on all the time, you will be going weekly to get your bottle(/s) filled.

However, if you are looking for a part time power adder for when you are at the strip with your daily driver... Nitrous is the only choice.

Many ppl have turboed thier 5SFE stock. Meaning little to no engine work and had the car run. I wouldn't plan on running more than 5-6 psi, with 7 at the max though. That would be more than enough oomph to give you a smile.

91 celica st
08-09-2006, 08:49 PM
^percisly, and i woould say 75 shot is way too much withought fuel managment, 50 shot at most, i would say it would be "okay" to use a 75 at the track but very rarely

plus nitrus is hell on driveline components, its not like a turbo where power gradually increases, as soon ad you hit WOT (with a wot activation swtich) your adding an extra 75 hp immidiatly

but yes i would say turbo, the only time i personally would use nitrus is if i had a fully built engine, nothing left to do and i didnt want to run more boost, i would use the bottle

Playfortoday
08-09-2006, 08:53 PM
Calling nuke to this thread. I sent him a PM.

aballz
08-09-2006, 09:48 PM
All this talk about turboing makes me want a little more juice out of my 5sfe too. Keep the good input coming. Engine swap is out of the question and with california law, it would make it hard to pass smog.

2kSnakEater
08-09-2006, 09:56 PM
Turbo ftw!! bottles are for babies

balagast
08-09-2006, 10:00 PM
read the sticky in the forced inductions section about turboing a 5sfe, if you want all the info on that... it is very very informative in what is required to make a reliable 5sfte.

primeplaya7
08-09-2006, 10:20 PM
I appreciate all the input and yes it would be nice to have nukes input (he is an all knowing god on here) I don't want to run cheap on anything so if it must be installed to be safe i am all for it. the thing about the turbo kit is everything i am looking at doing just seems so expensive. turbo header t3/t4 turbo fuel pump injectors downpipe and then i guess a greddy emange to tie it all up together with just all that i am looking at like 4000 without labor yes? I knwo the 3sgte turbo and manifold will bolt up to my 5sfe but what can i expect out of them i am limited to the ct26 or similar toyota turbo. I have read all the preasure 2 posts and burien kits and custom 5sfte but don't they all do the work themselves? i am not that smart when it comes to these things. thanx for all the help and unlike most people that post on here with similar problems, i am taking notes and building on what you all say. so again thank you and keep all the comments coming.

T-spoon
08-09-2006, 10:44 PM
I appreciate all the input and yes it would be nice to have nukes input (he is an all knowing god on here) I don't want to run cheap on anything so if it must be installed to be safe i am all for it. the thing about the turbo kit is everything i am looking at doing just seems so expensive. turbo header t3/t4 turbo fuel pump injectors downpipe and then i guess a greddy emange to tie it all up together with just all that i am looking at like 4000 without labor yes? I knwo the 3sgte turbo and manifold will bolt up to my 5sfe but what can i expect out of them i am limited to the ct26 or similar toyota turbo. I have read all the preasure 2 posts and burien kits and custom 5sfte but don't they all do the work themselves? i am not that smart when it comes to these things. thanx for all the help and unlike most people that post on here with similar problems, i am taking notes and building on what you all say. so again thank you and keep all the comments coming.

Well, as far as that goes, if you outgrow the ct26, you've probably outgrown the stock bottom end. To run a t3/t4, you might then start thinking about forged bottom end. The ct26 makes fine power until high RPM and high boost, neither of which are an issue with a stock 5sfe. You do have some headwork, but your cams are still going to peak your power before the CT26 is totally out of steam AFIK, so if you were to turbo that setup, the ct26 and 3s manifold are probably the best bang for your buck.

bloodredgt
08-09-2006, 11:02 PM
Boost. I also considered getting the bottle for my car until I calculated prices for them. I pieced together an entire turbo set up for my 5sfe for just under $1300. That's the same price as getting a NX Xpress gen 2 set up with purge kit etc etc new. Plus if you go boost you won't have to go and fill up the bottle just to have fun. Plus you have to consider that fact that bottle pressure affects the amount of power you get and how you should tune your motor. Sure nitrous gives you a huge gain in torque but who wants to eat through their clutch faster???

Boost. Period.

andy
08-10-2006, 12:33 AM
let me give some personal experiance away here. Ive been running my setup. turbo 5s stock turbo 7psi blah blah. Man I get the same smile everytime after that thing spools. Never fails. I must warn you boost becomes addicting I just ordered a 3sgte front clip that will be here friday. Im more ancy than a school girl!. Go boost and never look back. Oh and ive been this way for 4 months now, my motor having never been rebuilt with 198000 miles on it, hasnt skipped a beat. Do not worry about the engine at 7psi itll hold, Im not runnin any sort of ecu piggyback or anything and it runs 11.5ish all day. with no detonation. Just make sure to have a wideband. That helped settle my nerves alot. Most of all go with what you think you will enjoy most, its your car. later

93trdGT-S
08-10-2006, 05:04 AM
i agree with 2ksnakeater man bottles are for babies...

easy horsepower for wusses...

turbo all the way

Sean
08-10-2006, 06:38 AM
i agree with 2ksnakeater man bottles are for babies...

easy horsepower for wusses...

turbo all the way

Being a turbo owner I find this comment weak! Who cares how you achieved power, its still power in the end. Whats the big deal? Are top fuel dragsters cheaters because they burn Methanol? Is 7500hp credible power?

If you have the money, I would turbo it. But, probably the cheapest best bang for your buck is a well done nitrous kit.

nuclearhappines
08-10-2006, 08:32 AM
man , u're supposed to be a playa ! it doesn't matter either way you go, because weather u have a gozilla BOV or a shotgun LED lit purge they're all pimp :p

I blew my 5sfe with a turbo. So this is a responce to murgatory saying that nitrous is bad. So is a turbo. Any setup can blow... just has to do with your individual circumstances...in the end we learn, rebuild and move on.

you're in middle ground here . if u wanted boost i would like to see some lower CR pistons (even if they were stock strength...toyota builds their stuff strong). If you wanted to go with nitrous i would've liked to see some higher CR pistons and more engine mods (Cams, header) ...

What you don't want is a turbo car that you don't feel that u can fully boost on (or that will explode on you on the first onset of a boost spike or a boost creep because of a high CR. And what you also don't want is a nitrous car that 'needs' the nitrous for you to get around at what you feel is a good 'speedy' pace... otherwise you'll find yourself going through the nitrous ALL the time.

As far as technical stuff goes (and this is all my opinion) ... Gauges are useless. The human being is very slow at processing data. Sensors are faster than gauges...

Air fuel safety switch , runs off the o2 sensor and can activate safety measures if run lean for some reason (some gauges now have a programmable output...same thing...just u also have the gauge to look at if it matters to u)
Fuel pressure safety switch monitors fuel pressure.
Some EGT gauges now have programmable outputs for warning lights ...etc. This would be a good way to kill the n2o flow or switch back down to wastegate boost on a turbo setup if the EGT's go up fro some reason...
Oil pressure safety switch too... toyotas will not tell u your oil pressure is lwo till it hits 5psi or less... get one that's in the 25-35psi range (10psi for each 1000 rpms) and if it's not on hten u should be off hte juice or not in high boost.

That's my current take on safety in general... if u put all those gauges in your car u may get pulled over, harassed, or raced... but as far as function goes having a proper safety setup > having gauges because if you're not looking at the gauges it's like they're not there. Whereas the sensors/switches will do the work for u even if u only have like 4 led's hidden somewhere so u can check from time to time that the sensors are ok... no need for gauges.

low maintanance cars kick ass btw.

So that's a new 'theory' on safety for celicatech.

Finally, the age old Turbo vs Kompressor vs Kemikal Kompressor.

I'm under the impression that as far as safety goes... safest

1- kompressor (very predictable, single boost level, no spikes or accidents, and simple fueling)
2- nitrous (because it can be off easily, and off most of the time)
3- turbo (it's like marriage... you're in it for the long haul... you can't just shut it off...and it can be unpredictable and exciting ...tough or dramatic at times... u grow with it usually)

As far as simplicity goes (ownership)

1- Kompressor (change the kompressor oil every 90,000 miles and keep your belts tight)
2- Nitrous (change your n2o filter every so often, check some electrical connections) ... most people don't have an n2o filter ;)
3- Turbo ... like i said... a turbo setup is rarely left alone... u will find yourself upgrading...ask pressure2.

As far simplicity of install (for the celica)

1- Turbo (3s manifold + some dp + some exhaust work + 2bar + 360s + methanol injection and u have your 70 hp @ 7psi)
2- Direct port nitrous
3- Supercharger (all custom)

Going back to all these issues. The 5sfe has good bottom end but no top end... to make the car significantly faster u want to put the power donw in those last 2000 rpms.

Do not build a CT26 turboed setup (or any other turbo setup that runs out of steam above 4600 rpms). If you do go with nitrous... progressive would be a nice way to give u linear power band up top (which makes the car feel AGES faster). if you do go with some kompressor go with a centrifugal...

i know i didn't directly answer your question because i think that's up to you to decide.

nuclearhappines
08-10-2006, 08:43 AM
[Turbo ftw!! bottles are for babies]

if you step out of the 'limitations' that most of the celica owners think in (daily driven car, a few more hp for when i feel frisky...etc

The best setup is both...

two reasons :

1- nitrous takes care of lag...which allows you to use a bigger turbo ultimately and still make good low and midrange power on the nitrous+lower boost
2- nitrous is happier in hot weather (higher bottle pressures) and higher temperature differencial between the liquid n2o and the incoming hot air. Turbos are happier in colder weather, with denser air and higher effeciency...

a balanced nitrous + boost car will run the same times year round ... when the boost effeciency is down some 10-20hp in the summer, the nitrous effeciency is up those same 10-20 hp... in the winter...the bottle pressure won't stay up...but the added air density from the turbo will make up for it...and you'll have a solid (so solid that you can almost gamble on what times it runs) car year round.

-nuke

Murgatroy
08-10-2006, 10:30 AM
I never said the squeeze was bad, I just said to be careful with it. I used a 250 shot to get my Camaro into the 10s. I never had a problem with it. But I was very anal about the set up and the engine was built around it.

In the end the question comes down to a simple point, do you want push button power, or push throttle power?

NDMstang65
08-10-2006, 04:22 PM
I'll personally never touch nitrous again...i grew up around drag racing and the track...

Over the years of being there and working on the cars that ran there and seeing what it does to cylinder walls (spider webs) and heads / head gaskets (litterally lifts the head off of the block, which causes the bolts to stretch, and blows the head gasket) long term or any kind of life span you really can't count on. Granted none of these were 4 bangers, so it might be completely different. Personally it's too much the same (theoretically half of a big block engine) and i wouldnt want any part of the end result. Especially seeing how hard these engines are to take out and work on. You can have a big block out of an old school car in a hour and be half way torn down ready to rebuild in the amount of time that your still unplugging plugs on the 4cyl's/imports :).

Boost on the other hand is fairly easy to control...nothing more then a waste gate spring if your running an externally waste gated turbo....can use a low boost spring like 4lbs and control it externally with a boost controller if you want more. Granted you are running the risk of boost spikes, fuel cut issues and lean/rich issues etc, like others have mentioned. It's just a personal assessment for you to figure out which one you think is the lesser of two evils.

just a few thoughts :)