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View Full Version : New hood with 3sgte swap?



Kahlon
06-11-2006, 06:43 AM
hey, Im doing the 3sgte swap on my 91 celica gt. Im just wondering if i can use the stock hood for a week or two before getting the new one or if i will need the new one right away.

burnyd
06-11-2006, 06:55 AM
if you keep the top mount its a really bad idea... actually the whole top mount intercooler idea is just plain silly. It gets so hot anyway. Your best bet is a front mount. The stock top mount gets so hot. if I end up keeping my car thats the next thing I would do. If you do a front mount theres no need to switch hoods from an alltrac.

Playfortoday
06-11-2006, 07:17 AM
As stated in this thread:

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17648&highlight=hood

which was also posted today with the same exact topic, please use the search function. This topic has been covered at least 100 times on this site.

Now to answer your question correctly, yes, it is ok to run the stock hood TEMPORARILY. Do not race the car around, use only stock boost, do not go into the higher RPMs, try to drive only in cooler weather, and make sure to run the highest octane fuel you can get(93 or better is best). All of this is done to prevent detonation. It is not a great idea to drive without a vented hood since the TMIC is getting killed with rising heat soak. Why not just wait instead of risking detonation which will replace all the hard work you just did with a blown engine.

alltracman78
06-11-2006, 02:16 PM
if you keep the top mount its a really bad idea... actually the whole top mount intercooler idea is just plain silly. It gets so hot anyway. Your best bet is a front mount. The stock top mount gets so hot. if I end up keeping my car thats the next thing I would do. If you do a front mount theres no need to switch hoods from an alltrac.

No, YOU are just plain silly.
A TMIC is actually a good idea. It is the particular design of the ST185 setup that is bad.

There are upgrades available [hard to find though] for the TMIC. Play has one. An ARC ic. If you go with the ATA, you want some type of heat shield.
You can also get a WTA ic from a homologation version ST185, or a ST205 one. This will also benifit from a heat shield.

Playfortoday
06-12-2006, 01:38 AM
if you keep the top mount its a really bad idea... actually the whole top mount intercooler idea is just plain silly. It gets so hot anyway. Your best bet is a front mount. The stock top mount gets so hot. if I end up keeping my car thats the next thing I would do. If you do a front mount theres no need to switch hoods from an alltrac.

Really?

This huge, high quality top mount was a bad idea? Looks like I need to get front mount IC. Stupid me.:rolleyes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Playfortoday/IMG_1947.jpg

Playfortoday
06-12-2006, 01:39 AM
Or maybe Dennis Heath's 350+HP on a stock top mount with water injection was a bad idea?

burnyd
06-12-2006, 06:19 AM
water injection good....... Air to air top mount blowing warm air into the motor and heat soak all the time... Sorry bad Idea i disagree with you. Its a pointless intercooler. ..... Yes stupid you :D

celicaguy.
06-12-2006, 08:13 AM
Please take the length of play's charge pipe take that into consideration. The TMIC is a good design and not a "pointless intercooler". Its short charge piping results in less air that must be pressurized within the hoses, improving throttle response and lessening the effects of "lag". Intercooler choice has a lot to do with the style of driving that that car is being used for. The top mount is Very effective when moving at a fast pace or constantly in and out of boost, for example autocross or daily driving. It should also be taken into consideration that the TMIC does not block any airflow to the radiator. Each have Pros and cons but I think it is a quite a Bold statement on your behalf to render this a "pointless intercooler", Tell this to great number of car manufacturers today that use this design.

burnyd
06-12-2006, 08:48 AM
on the wrx... on the sti some of the top mounts.. actually works out fine. I am talking about the st185 motor. Not talking about any other engine. I am saying reference to the 3sgte st185. Yes there is no lag because of the distance from the turbo to the manifold. But because of where its at it heat soaks really bad and allows hot air into the engine. A front mount is a way better choice.

alltracman78
06-12-2006, 11:20 AM
Is this the reason Toyota won championships with a tmic?
Beating the Evo, WRX, Escort, and a whole bunch more......

Heat soak can effectively be combatted.

Playfortoday
06-12-2006, 02:01 PM
If it was even remotely worth it to measure my air intake temperature just before my throttlebody, which it is not, I would guarantee it is lower than yours. In every situation except sitting in a long line que up for a quarter mile, which is not how a use my car. I daily drive in and drive it spiritedly. I bow down to your very well researched and articulated reasons for why my intercooler is lacking when compared to a tyte FMIC.

celicaguy.
06-12-2006, 07:45 PM
So at work today I thought about this thread and took an rtd sensor outside just to check some temps. Suprisingly air IS hotter approx. 8-10" off the pavement than it is at 3 and a half feet off the pavement.

Playfortoday
06-12-2006, 07:55 PM
So at work today I thought about this thread and took an rtd sensor outside just to check some temps. Suprisingly air IS hotter approx. 8-10" off the pavement than it is at 3 and a half feet off the pavement.


That definitely clears things up.

My Intake is 3.5' off the ground, there for it is cooler. Finally we can end this once and for all for hard scientific data.:rolleyes.

Good one celicaguy.:laugh:

Cavanagh
06-12-2006, 08:15 PM
Ya no ever says the good about a TMIC, all i ever hear is the bad. BTW, Play, i am dissapointed the cat w/ the bag is gone..:(

Sean
06-12-2006, 09:07 PM
Is this the reason Toyota won championships with a tmic?
Beating the Evo, WRX, Escort, and a whole bunch more......

Heat soak can effectively be combatted.


I completely disagree, TMIC is a terrible idea, WTA or ATA. When the main objective of the intercooler is to combat heat, why would you subject it to heat atop of a blistering hot engine. All the principles postulates laws and theories of thermodynamics clearly show that placing a cooling device atop of a jet stream of hot air is seriously working against itself. Thats like keeping your six pack of corona cold by setting atop of a lit fireplace, oh no worries, just throw more ice in the box.

This mysterous lag has never been proven to my knowledge with back to back certifibale antecdoctal evidence, ie, a dyno. You are not going to notice lag with a FMIC setup, this mindset is about as old school as JDM in itself. Air is constantly around us, you are among air right this very second. The pipes that lead to the FMIC are not in a "vacuum", they are filled with ambient air at all times, the given volume of the system is negligble in the big scheme of things, considering that your average 2 liter engine is going to ingest copious amounts of air with every revolution, in the big scheme of things its irrelelavant.

Play, if you want to justify your purchase, thats fine. Dont attempt to write the book on what works and what doesnt work based soley on the fact that you decided to purchase something. Granted, I'm sure it does work a lot better then the factor ATA, mainly a function of core size and surface area for heat transfer. Still, it will never be as effective do to its location.

Sean
06-12-2006, 09:09 PM
And to continue, a ATA is just impractical. Sit at a stop light for just 30 seconds, pop your hood and good luck even trying to place your HAND on the ATA intercooler. The only time it works decentely is at speed, great speeds for that matter. Autox, Drag, city driving, all impracticle and out of the scope of a TMIC.

burnyd
06-13-2006, 12:25 AM
^^ Agreed x10

Playfortoday
06-13-2006, 02:24 AM
I completely disagree. How the hell is this about justify my purchase. I have nothing to justify. A simple heat sheat, and that is basically negated and no worse than hot asphalt heat traveling to cold from a hot radiator. Either will soak standing still, and I run a spal to help with that. Unless we are talking Chinshue, ChrisK, or Strong levels, I disagree that I am in any way handicapped. Noboby is saying heat soak isn't and issue, but I give a shit when I am typically almost always in motion moving air through my IC.

Sean
06-13-2006, 03:15 AM
Forget Chinsue and others, I KNOW I need a FMIC at my measely 200hp level. Heatsoak is evident (even way up here in the NW) at every stop light, after repeated highway pulls, at every drag event, etc....

Haha, by no means do I think the radiating heat from the asphalt is an issue for a FMIC....

Playfortoday
06-13-2006, 03:23 AM
Haha, by no means do I think the radiating heat from the asphalt is an issue for a FMIC....

If we are drawing for straws, why not?:hehe:

burnyd
06-13-2006, 09:03 AM
I could cook eggs off of my top mount.

PhillyDRFT
06-13-2006, 07:55 PM
I could cook eggs off of my top mount.

Do it, stick a pan ontop of it. Drop and egg in and see what happins.
Add pics

burnyd
06-13-2006, 07:58 PM
if you really want me to take a vid I will do it.

Sean
06-13-2006, 08:11 PM
HAHA, I think I'm going to do that today and take some pics, that will make for a great sig.

Playfortoday
06-13-2006, 08:18 PM
Lol

burnyd
06-13-2006, 08:28 PM
HAHA, I think I'm going to do that today and take some pics, that will make for a great sig.


Wtf man thats my idea.

Murgatroy
06-13-2006, 08:48 PM
Do eet!

burnyd
06-13-2006, 08:56 PM
Oh it already done heh..... I might actually do this today.

PhillyDRFT
06-14-2006, 07:21 PM
haha nice, i remember an argument like this before about processors on another forum in general chat, the kid actually cooked an egg on his processer. he then made a write up of how to.
http://www.phys.ncku.edu.tw/~htsu/humor/200222601240801860.jpg

ChrisD
06-14-2006, 08:52 PM
You can make a highly efficient top mount. You can also make a highly efficient front mount. I've had a few top mounts to play with. You just need to make sure that you build a good system, and dont ignore any of the parts.

burnyd
06-14-2006, 08:56 PM
ohh... EggtoTMIC.mpg will be up tommorrow Night.

Playfortoday
06-15-2006, 12:34 AM
I am assuming the egg frying video with be of an oversized ARC TMIC with 9" pusher fan? Or a shitty stock IC with no fan.

burnyd
06-15-2006, 12:52 AM
^^ You got it on the second try.

Playfortoday
06-15-2006, 01:01 AM
Hardly a comparison. I thought we were still talking about how crappy my ARC was.

burnyd
06-15-2006, 01:03 AM
TMIC < FMIC.... I meen honestly you cant argue that one. Wait till you see what I film tommorrow... the shocking truth.

Playfortoday
06-15-2006, 01:06 AM
Not going to argue. It is pointless. We never talked about what IC has the highest roof. That is the FMIC. If we are talking about most streetable applications, I hold my ground that a TMIC with do just as good. This is the last I will say about it until I have intake temps from my system, and that is not going to be any time soon.

burnyd
06-15-2006, 01:16 AM
Not going to argue. It is pointless. We never talked about what IC has the highest roof. That is the FMIC. If we are talking about most streetable applications, I hold my ground that a TMIC with do just as good. This is the last I will say about it until I have intake temps from my system, and that is not going to be any time soon.



Do you want me to do a before and after test....? Ill do it. But theres nothing to prove... Top mount = Heat soak. If I ran my car for 10 minutes highway or street driving get out and put my hand on top of the intercooler its really really hot. All your doing is sending warm air into the engine.. its basicly pointless.

burnyd
06-15-2006, 01:42 AM
Just wait this movie will make celica tech History!

Playfortoday
06-15-2006, 01:51 AM
Do you want me to do a before and after test....? Ill do it. But theres nothing to prove... Top mount = Heat soak.

I have no doubt that the stock TMIC without a spal is too hot to touch after running around. I've yelled "shit, hot, shit, hot, shit, hot" while running from my 185 to the bench once or twice. I think we are talking about two different things. I am saying the my ARC/spal combo will be cool to the touch everywhere accept where the inlet flange is coupled to the tubo compressor outlet after a "spirited" drive.


If I ran my car for 10 minutes highway or street driving get out and put my hand on top of the intercooler its really really hot. All your doing is sending warm air into the engine.. its basicly pointless.

Stockwise, I agree. What I am saying is that you cannot say this exact same thing when referring to my set up. But the crappy thing is that all you can do is take my word for it until I produce hard data, or any other people who have checked it out in person. alltracman78 was around for three days working on my car with me, and he can attest to the fact that my ARC stays cool to the touch after driving hard for a tuning session. If I add a dual layered heat shield, it will be even more negligent. He is planning on making a another detailed posts about TMICs in general, but he is waiting until he has time to write more than "shut up, you are wrong. i disagree lol."

burnyd
06-15-2006, 01:55 AM
^^ Sorry your design looks like it helps but in this case a Front mount is going to be more efficient...... Just shell out the damn cash and buy one already... quit arguing its dumb. TMIC < FMIC.... The mod helps but your just wasting money IMO.

Playfortoday
06-15-2006, 02:02 AM
It is shit like this completely biased comment you just made that made me say forget it. It ask a couplke of logical questions, get logical answers, and you go back to the same shit I just said I would ignore since it is like digging in sand when talkin gto you.

Jeremy, I recommend you don't waste your time on a response if your goal is to help burnyd understand. If you are worried about other members coming in and getting misinformed, by all means do, but don't waste your time on him personally. I want the last ten minutes of my life back.

Burnyd, you can tell me "I told you so, play" when I am pushing 400awhp and need to upgrade then.

alltracman78
06-15-2006, 02:36 AM
Jeremy, I recommend you don't waste your time on a response if your goal is to help burnyd understand. If you are worried about other members coming in and getting misinformed, by all means do, but don't waste your time on him personally. I want the last ten minutes of my life back.

I already knew that...
:laugh:

Morwan
06-15-2006, 02:44 AM
I completely disagree, TMIC is a terrible idea, WTA or ATA. When the main objective of the intercooler is to combat heat, why would you subject it to heat atop of a blistering hot engine.

You're thinking about it from the wrong perspective. The ST185 was a Group A car. If you've ever watched the WRC, you'd know that a FMIC would be a serious liability. The amount of punishment the front end of an average WRC car takes during a single round would destroy most FMICs.

alltracman78
06-15-2006, 03:01 AM
Unfortuately, that isn't really a valid arguement.
The heat exchanger is still mounted up front.
Granted, not quite as up front as a FMIC, but it's still there...

Morwan
06-15-2006, 03:40 AM
I dunno, I'm guessing it's be easier to replace the heat exchanger than the intercooler-- which would be important when you've only got 40 minutes between stages. Also, with a TMIC you can beef up the bumper a little bit, whereas you want it as open as possible for a FMIC.

Sean- I don't think you really need dyno graphs to prove it. To move air, you need to create a pressure drop. For fluid flow through a cylindrical pipe, the pressure drop is directly proportional to the length of the pipe. In other words, the longer your piping, the higher the pressure drop will be, and the less boost you'll actually get.

alltracman78
06-15-2006, 09:39 PM
Well, if you hole the heat exchanger, you can still run the engine....

I'm just going to point several things out, I don't feel like posting a huge reply...

1-Toyota used ONLY TMIC in thier rally cars. Winning championships with them. Not bad for a silly piece of equipment.

2-Pat Chinshues car, when he bought it, it had a ST205 TMIC. It ran 11s. In a full interior Alltrac [3300lbs, ~25% drivetrain loss for those of you that don't know]. Not bad for a pointless intercooler....

3-When you have to pressurize a certain volume, it takes longer to pressurize a larger volume. PERIOD. It's simple physics.....

There is nothing wrong with going for a FMIC. They work great. And you can get more power out of them than any TMIC you can fit on a 3SGTE. But they are not the only viable option for someone that is only looking for 300hp....

Sean
06-16-2006, 02:07 AM
Its not about how much power you can make with an intercooler on one pass.

Its about how many passes you can make AT POWER with your intercooler. ;)

alltracman78
06-16-2006, 02:18 AM
Agreed.
I believe Toyota won more than 1 race.
And Pats car made more than 1 pass per day.....

Sean
06-16-2006, 02:24 AM
The point is you can do it simpler, with less ingenuity, and far far easier, by removing the radiator from the heat.

Heat soak is a periliess thing that will never fully be evaded with a TMIC. The WTA intercooler is fucking awesome, and that is all. But like you've pointed out, noticed the actual heat exchanging process is located at the FRONT of the car. :)

alltracman78
06-16-2006, 02:28 AM
The same place it would be if I had a WTAIC mounted where my battery goes.
Or anywhere else on the car.

Unless I ran it to a tank in the trunk.....

Has nothing to do with the placement of the ic....

alltracman78
06-16-2006, 02:45 AM
Whatever.
There are merits for either system.
Neither is perfect.
But niether is useless if set up properly.

Sean
06-16-2006, 04:05 AM
The same place it would be if I had a WTAIC mounted where my battery goes.
Or anywhere else on the car.

Unless I ran it to a tank in the trunk.....

Has nothing to do with the placement of the ic....

Yes, and your ATA heat exchanger, where would it go? (Rhetoric) It has nothing to do with the placement of the ic when your talking WTA, but ATA...

Its an interesting convo to talk about over a few beers :)

Punisher
06-16-2006, 04:12 AM
What if you mounted the intercooler below the engine.. say if you made up a full sheet aluminum underbay cover... then mounted the IC onto that with an opening to the road and then a fan on top of the IC? Wrapped the whole exhaust system through the bay as well so that cut down on bay temps.. I think that would be better seeing how heat raises.. have the flow blow through the IC to the road... Granted it wouldn't really get any airflow through it without the fan on.. other than while driving fast you'd get a vacuum under the car drawing air through the IC opening.. that would also give less IC piping than an FMIC if you do a side throttle body swap.

Sean
06-16-2006, 04:57 AM
hmm, seem's like a lot of work to put a intercooler under your car :hehe:

Why not just put it in the bumper? Piping would shorter IMHO. Clock that turbo bitches!

Besides you ricers, FMIC look nasty :hehe:

Punisher
06-16-2006, 05:11 AM
Sleeper?
Not very much work to do what i propose either.

burnyd
06-16-2006, 07:35 AM
^^ why do you always have to be creative?

Mike431635
06-16-2006, 07:06 PM
Hey I have an idea, just run without any hood at all until you get an Alltrac/GT-4 hood. Problem solved.

Morwan
06-17-2006, 03:29 AM
Agreed.
I believe Toyota won more than 1 race.
The GT-Four won two WRC manufacturer's titles and four driver's titles:

In racing, the Celica is known for its rally racing prowess. The first World Rally Championship (WRC) victory came in 1982 Rally of New Zealand with 2000GT (RA63). From 1983 to 1986, the Group B Celica Twincam Turbo (TA64) won all six WRC events in Africa they entered. GT-Four Celicas competed in Group A Rally racing from the mid-1980s to the late 1990s. GT-Four Celicas have won two manufacturer's titles, and four driver's titles. Carlos Sainz was the most successful driver, winning WRC titles with the ST165 in 1990 and the ST185 in 1992. The ST185 also won 1993 and 1994 titles with Juha Kankkunen and Didier Auriol respectively. Soon after introducing the ST205 in 1995, Team Toyota Europe was banned for 12 months from the WRC because of cheating. Some time after TTE switched to the shorter Toyota Corolla.

I wrote/rewrote the parts on the GT-Four. :P

BTW, here are some Toyota WRC/Rally action shots. (http://www.toyota-f1-media.com/japanese/imgmusterarchive.php?img_pag=rally&tot_pag=5&act_pag=1&title=ToyotakkMotorsportkkHistoricalkkImages)

MrWOT
06-20-2006, 02:10 AM
I completely disagree, TMIC is a terrible idea, WTA or ATA.


I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken ;) I had my 165 WTA topmount insulated with a ceramic coating, it doesn't heatsoak, and throttle response is excellent. Of course, you couldn't do that with an ATA unit, but WTA is a perfectly valid TM solution is done correctly :)

Playfortoday
06-20-2006, 02:44 AM
I have had plans make this or find a fabricator this long before this thread:
A coated (possible multi-layered with corrogated center) under tray with an HPC coating. I got the idea from Ivan's cf undertray idea he never launched. I just need to figure out if demand is high enough to warrant me taking the first hit.

burnyd
06-20-2006, 04:55 AM
this thread is still around... fmic ftw!...

Playfortoday
06-20-2006, 02:33 PM
And you are still around too. Damn. :(

alltracman78
06-21-2006, 02:58 AM
So am I.


Damn. :(

Playfortoday
06-21-2006, 03:44 AM
Damn.:(

Colossus20v
06-21-2006, 04:09 AM
Darn. :)

burnyd
06-21-2006, 05:51 AM
And you are still around too. Damn. :(

Unfortunately some people are still around after ctech... Not mentioning any names....

ciento44
06-21-2006, 06:17 AM
Unfortunately some people are still around after ctech... Not mentioning any names....

Good. So don't bring it up.

Playfortoday
06-21-2006, 04:12 PM
Unfortunately some people are still around after ctech... Not mentioning any names....

I can tell my the way you interact with me in threads that you have a beef with me. Too bad. That shit is long over with. It is time to let it go or you can check out OTUG. There are still people there that don't like me.

Ciento offers great advice.

MrWOT
06-21-2006, 05:24 PM
:sadcry:
http://www.faroutshirts.com/images/PeaceWhyGa.jpg











:hehe:

alltracman78
06-21-2006, 05:36 PM
Good. So don't bring it up.

Yes, do NOT bring it up here.
That shit is past.
If you don't like it here, feel free to head over to OTUG....