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Lagos
05-23-2006, 03:29 AM
i installed a fresh set of brk7e plugs and gaped them at .028. id like to get opinions from everyone about how these look. to me they look a little too lean and the ground strap is too white, as if there is too much ignition timing (damn jdm ecu! )

if anyone else has pics of their plugs, post them up!

all the plugs are in order by cylinder from left to right. the last shot is a close up of cyl 1.

http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/6/8/P1010016Large_531411.JPG
http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/6/8/P1010013Large.JPG
http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/6/8/P1010006Large.JPG

angryyoungnpoor
05-23-2006, 04:07 AM
Deffinately lean, most likely from the advanced timing. That's pretty much all I can see. I guess the plugs are running too hot. May wanna get plugs for the correct heat range.

Lagos
05-23-2006, 04:35 AM
they are one step colder plugs!

ill probably back my timing off 1-2 deg and see how they look after that.

andy
05-23-2006, 05:15 AM
I pulled mine a few days ago, looked basically like that except the tips were alot greyer. the black was very evident. Mine didnt look lean. I dont think. Im running my timming at 6 btdc. later

MrWOT
05-23-2006, 06:15 AM
I don't see any blistering on the ceramics so it's not too hot. It might be a little warm, owing to the color of the ash, but I don't think it's enough to warrant a plug change. Is the engine pulling timing alot or what?

Luni
05-23-2006, 06:47 AM
Those arent lean. If they were lean there wouldnt be any carbon buildup on the bottom part where it screws in. The plugs are doing their job and cleaning the deposits off of them. If they were lean youd be having detonation and there would be little speckles in them.

They look pretty much like the plugs I pulled out of my engine before I put my NGKs in.

Lagos
05-23-2006, 07:08 AM
Those arent lean. If they were lean there wouldnt be any carbon buildup on the bottom part where it screws in. The plugs are doing their job and cleaning the deposits off of them. If they were lean youd be having detonation and there would be little speckles in them.

They look pretty much like the plugs I pulled out of my engine before I put my NGKs in.


luni, your right. based on what ive been reading a/f ratio should be based on reading carbon build up on the part that screws in.... but what has me worried a little is how white the ground strap is. it looks to my untrained eye as if there is too much timing and that i should try to take it back 1-2 degs (even tho its right at 10tdc right now)


I don't see any blistering on the ceramics so it's not too hot. It might be a little warm, owing to the color of the ash, but I don't think it's enough to warrant a plug change. Is the engine pulling timing alot or what?

right now its runng (based on my ass dyno) better then its ever run before in the 2yrs since ive swaped! the car is very responsive and feels very smooth.


now here is some background on why i pulled out my plugs....
as most of you know, a few weeks ago i threw in some cheap bosch plugs of unknown gap or heat range and went to the dyno. the car suffered massive knock response and the plugs were blamed. the dyno guy was an mr2 owner so he threw in some bcp7es plugs (none resistor type) and gaped them . a few weeks later i decided to pull those out and see how they were doing. to my shock 2 of them were gaped at 35 and the other 2 were gaped at 42 (never trust that other people know what they are doing around your car! ).
i bought a set of bkr7e's and gaped the at .028.... the car feels smoother and stronger then its ever felt before (i also found a 2yr old vac leak, so that has something to do with how much better the car feels)

i used to run bkr6e's at their stock gap, because i could never find a store that stocked bkr7e's. i found one of my old plugs laying around (the set before i put the bosch crap in) and found shiny specs on them. a sure sign of detonation that i never noticed!

so now the plan is too keep an eye on the plugs ever week or so. the only thing that has me worried is how white the ground straps are.

Lagos
05-23-2006, 07:16 AM
with nukes help, i found a few really usefull sites to help figure out what your plugs are telling you from a turners point of view.

http://www.maxracesoftware.com/spark_plugs.htm
http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/reading-spark-plugs.html
http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/how-to-read-plugs.html

if anyone has pics of their plugs, please post them up for comparison.

nuclearhappines
05-23-2006, 12:20 PM
i like 1 & 4
2 & 3 are a bit too clean for me ...

i 'feel' like you're either 2* advanced or 1-2% lean in cylidners 2 & 3... you're barely there, but i feel you're very barely on the aggressive end of the tuning hump

and like i said before, you're probably rich at idle (imho) ... ... (how's your milage?)

Trance4c
05-23-2006, 01:44 PM
I like 'em personally, look good.

G-man
05-23-2006, 02:28 PM
I like 'em personally, look good.

I agree.

Playfortoday
05-23-2006, 03:05 PM
Coming in here with my own on topic question. I installed a set of BKR7EIX gapped to 0.032. Am I gapped too wide for 12psi on a US ecu and stock turbo?

nuclearhappines
05-23-2006, 04:48 PM
you're gapping iridium plugs ?

Lagos
05-23-2006, 05:14 PM
Coming in here with my own on topic question. I installed a set of BKR7EIX gapped to 0.032. Am I gapped too wide for 12psi on a US ecu and stock turbo?



take them out and post pics of them!

Luni
05-23-2006, 05:42 PM
Lagos, you arent running enough boost on your turbo to warrant pulling out timing. If you were detonating or something wasnt happy youd know, your car would pull timing and youd feel it. It wouldnt run smooth and good.

Id leave it where it is. I dont think Id play with timing. Retarding the timing at your power level will have a negative effect on your performance, it will affect your fuel economy, and your car wont feel as nice.

Playfortoday
05-23-2006, 07:20 PM
you're gapping iridium plugs ?

No. That is the gap that they came with. I though you don't mess with it, so I left them that way. But I thought I was reading differently in here.

I am not going to pull them since I know they are a lovely light cocoa color as of three weeks ago. Just want to make sure I was good. Sometimes a get a hell of a buck while accelerating from anywhere below 3000-3500rpm. I have new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and fuel filter. I am tryingto get to the bottom of this, and thought... just may the plugs are not gapped right, but the color is perfect. I even had alltracman78 check them out in person. Bellisimo!

Here is an example. Regular start in first gear... shift to second... aply gas liberally... nothing happens(dog slow until boost is 7psi+ but still not pulling up to this point very hard at all)... then wham! I get slammed back into myseat and I am off like a bat out of hell. I don't like it. 4th and 5th gear rolls buck in lower rpm. J&S says it is not knock response. :wtf:

Sorry, Art. Let me know if the highjack is bugging you.

Lagos
05-23-2006, 07:30 PM
No. That is the gap that they came with. I though you don't mess with it, so I left them that way. But I thought I was reading differently in here.

I am not going to pull them since I know they are a lovely light cocoa color as of three weeks ago. Just want to make sure I was good. Sometimes a get a hell of a buck while accelerating from anywhere below 3000-3500rpm. I have new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and fuel filter. I am tryingto get to the bottom of this, and thought... just may the plugs are not gapped right, but the color is perfect. I even had alltracman78 check them out in person. Bellisimo!

Here is an example. Regular start in first gear... shift to second... aply gas liberally... nothing happens(dog slow until boost is 7psi+ but still not pulling up to this point very hard at all)... then wham! I get slammed back into myseat and I am off like a bat out of hell. I don't like it. 4th and 5th gear rolls buck in lower rpm. J&S says it is not knock response. :wtf:

Sorry, Art. Let me know if the highjack is bugging you.


not a hijack at all. .this is the topic i wanted to talk about.

i would swap in bkr7e's and gap them at .028. i kind of felt the same thing as you describe with my car on the plugs the dyno shop put in for me. they didnt cause knock, but the car didnt feel right either. try the coper bkr7e's, they made a HUGE difference for me.

Playfortoday
05-23-2006, 07:41 PM
Thanks, Art!

After $35, I want to cry though. Maybe another amazing piece of advice will come of this thread for me, but I think you are correct. I guess I need to bend over on this one. Anyone else have any ideas?

Lagos
05-23-2006, 07:44 PM
Thanks, Art!

After $35, I want to cry though. Maybe another amazing piece of advice will come of this thread for me, but I think you are correct. I guess I need to bend over on this one. Anyone else have any ideas?


think of it this way ... the coper plugs are about 1.80 each. so its cheap enough to test a theory. if the new ones dont help, then you can stick your 35$ plugs back in! :)

that bog down in the lower gears is exactly what i felt in my car, when the plugs were at stock gap.

Playfortoday
05-23-2006, 08:01 PM
Well, at that price, bkr7e's with a .028 gap it is. The problem is that with my Samco t-hose and ARC tmic, changing plugs are a pain in the ash.

I still would like to know why supposedly awesome plugs that I researched for many more hours than I should have are doing this to me?http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Playfortoday/Emoticons/161fc3d6.gif

Luni
05-23-2006, 09:48 PM
.32 is too high of a gap. Iridium is less conductive than copper, so it will take LESS of a gap to get you performance.

Its not just about boost pressure, its about relative cylinder pressures. Since your VE is higher than a stock engine, youre doing more work in your cylinders. You need to gap your plugs down and you cant really do that with iridium I dont think. Theyre too brittle.

But yeah, Im with Art. Get some BKR7Es and see what happens with them gapped at .28. Thats where I run.

ty_44_69
05-23-2006, 10:24 PM
I just checked out NGK's site and they recommend .032 gap and BKR6E , but I guess that would be at stock boost that those were specified for.

G-Power Platinum BKR6EGP
Laser BKR6EP-8
Iridium IX BKR6EIX

so I understand why you using 7's instead of 6, but Lagos what type are you using? I've always been under the assumption Iridiums last the longest and are the best on the market. Sorry if I jacked thread I think it's still on topic though.

Luni
05-23-2006, 10:35 PM
Iridiums last the longest because theyre the hardest. They are not the most conductive.

In terms of conductivity the iridiums arent as good as platiniums. Platinums arent as good as coppers, and ideally SILVER is the best material.

Iridiums were PRIMARILY developed for use by NA applications where you go 100k before your first tune up.

I myself am leery of running iridiums becuase of the horror stories Ive read about spark plug prongs breaking off in the combustion chambers. Id rather go with a copper which is a softer, less brittle metal. Not to mention its more conductive.

You dont read about too many high HP boosted cars that use Iridium plugs.

Trance4c
05-23-2006, 11:23 PM
You guys.. get some BRK7E's gap them a .028.. best price I have ever found including shipping is from Two'sRUS and help the community too.. thats 12.00 shipped a set. I haven't found a place to beat that yet.

http://www.twosrus.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=220

I usually buy 2-3 sets at a time.

Lagos
05-24-2006, 02:14 AM
You guys.. get some BRK7E's gap them a .028.. best price I have ever found including shipping is from Two'sRUS and help the community too.. thats 12.00 shipped a set. I haven't found a place to beat that yet.

http://www.twosrus.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=220

I usually buy 2-3 sets at a time.

i found them at my local advnace auto for 7-8 bucks.

presure2
05-24-2006, 11:00 AM
yea, i pick mine up @ my local napa for 2.05 ea.

nuclearhappines
05-24-2006, 12:59 PM
In terms of conductivity the iridiums arent as good as platiniums. Platinums arent as good as coppers, and ideally SILVER is the best material.

negative !

iridium is more conductive (electrically and thermally) then copper... i looked it up

plus your standard copper or or platinum plug has a regular injection tip, iridiums have an ultra fine (0.4 to 0.9mm) tip... The resistivity of iridium may be higher than copper... but the tip design means that you can get an overall less resistive and better injection point (read sharp and pointy tip) out of an iridium plgu

longevity iridium>platinum>copper
performance copper>iridium>platinum

So with iridiums you can get much closer to copper performance without the plug life hassle (which is why platinums are now outdated in all apsects)

Playfortoday
05-24-2006, 02:02 PM
Nuke, that is what I thought I read, thus why I got them. I don't care much about plug life since I am paying a huge premium for the iridum anyway. Just curious why copper is doing better in so many other cars?

nuclearhappines
05-24-2006, 02:40 PM
I know alot of vr4 guys running 5,6,700 hp cars on 6 iridium plugs

on a 4 cylinder that's igniting as much as 450 hp worth of power using stock gapped denso ik20,22,24,27's on the stock coil packs on regular wires... nothing outstanding there.

your problem sounds more like fuel supply to me ... missfires are more likely to occurr at higher rpms and higher boost...

fuel supply problems are going to show up more when you have a huge change in demand (ie you go WOT)

if your plugs were missfiring they wouldn't have that cocoa brown you're talking about.. i personally think you're diagnosing in the wrong place but i could be wrong...

PS ... how's your fuel pump relay ? try to bypass it (hotwire the pump @ constant 12v and see if the problem disappears)

-nuke

Trance4c
05-24-2006, 03:08 PM
i found them at my local advnace auto for 7-8 bucks.

Mine won't order them :(

nuclearhappines
05-24-2006, 03:35 PM
napa will order them ... it's like 13 to 15 bux for 6 ... used to order them for the vr4

you'll get them whenever another shipment is coming in though...they're not going to send a truck just for your plugs... but if you order , they'll get them for you

http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/2/4/Perfect.jpg

i saved this image from a FI honda. a similar topic came up, this guy that was professionally dyno tuned pulled his plugs and they looked like this...

Playfortoday
05-24-2006, 03:47 PM
I have the fuel pump relay jumped already. :(

alltracman78
05-24-2006, 04:02 PM
Your plugs look fine.
I'll call and explain [don't have time to type a long reply, sorry. :(]

I would guess it's just heat soak.....

nuclearhappines
05-24-2006, 04:04 PM
I need to clear something up

I accidentally typed iridium is more conductive than copper when i meant platinum

resistivity :

silver 1.6 milli ohms per cc
Copper 1.6 milli ohms per cc
Iridium 4.7 milli ohms per cc
Platinum 10.6 milli ohms per cc

so on an equal spark plug tip design they materials will rank according to resistivity.
The thing with iridiums (and rob and i talked about this over AIM about 2 years ago) is that with iridium you have a much much smaller tip design. If the spark plug tip volume is about 2.5 times smaller on the iridium plug , than it is on a copper plug, it will have less resistance (as well as having a better injection point)... but i don't have actually measurements on plug tips so i can't for sure tell you (plug wise) who wins out, copper or iridium

in the end i don't know if any of this matters because our plugs have built in resistors so the whole material deal may be negligible except for the thermal conductivity aspect (which goes hand in hand with resistivity) pretty much... and that may be 'restricted' in heat ranges..

i'm not sure if it makes a difference but this is the physics behind it

Playfortoday
05-24-2006, 04:25 PM
Your plugs look fine.
I'll call and explain [don't have time to type a long reply, sorry. :(]

I would guess it's just heat soak.....

Happens hot or cold, my man.

Lagos
05-24-2006, 05:37 PM
play, im telling you... try bkr7e's at .028. your issue sounds very similar to what i felt wtih my car.

also, when you swap the plugs, take pics of the ones you have in there now and post them in this thread!

in fact, i wish everyone here would take their plugs out and photograph them. it would be great to see what results everyone is getting with what plugs.!

im going to take some pics of my brk6e's at stock gap, and post them up. you can see clear signs of detonation that i never realized i had !

Luni
05-24-2006, 06:33 PM
You guys realize the only way to properly read your plugs is to do a WOT pull and immediately turn the car off, pull over and pull the plug. Otherwise you could be reading a lean burn or a rich burn at idle, or cruise or whatever.

WOT is where its at, and thats the only real way to get an accurate reading.

Luni
05-24-2006, 07:53 PM
I looked it up. You guys are wrong. Iridium is not more conductive than copper. I think maybe Nuke meant to say its more conductive than Platinum but it is NOT more conductive thermally OR electrically than copper. Only 1 metal is, its silver.

**EDIT** I know thats what he meant, we talked about it on messenger. And for you non-believers heres your pr00f:

"The most conductive of all metals are silver, copper and gold in that order. Silver is also the most thermally conductive element, and the most light reflecting element. Silver also has the unusual property that the tarnish that forms on silver is still highly electrically conductive."

MrWOT
05-24-2006, 09:20 PM
I use Autolite Iridiums in my 165, have been for the last 13k, they work just fine, though I do have an upgraded ignition.

ty_44_69
05-24-2006, 10:57 PM
So from what I read the iridiums are the way to go. They are more expensive but last longer than the copper, unless you want to swap out your plugs often.

Lagos
05-24-2006, 11:14 PM
You guys realize the only way to properly read your plugs is to do a WOT pull and immediately turn the car off, pull over and pull the plug. Otherwise you could be reading a lean burn or a rich burn at idle, or cruise or whatever.

WOT is where its at, and thats the only real way to get an accurate reading.


yes i know... but even if you dont do that, they will still give you a general idea of whats going on with your motor. like my old bkr6es did when they showed detonation.

presure2
05-25-2006, 12:24 AM
So from what I read the iridiums are the way to go. They are more expensive but last longer than the copper, unless you want to swap out your plugs often.
actually for the 5sfte i would REALLY recommend using the coppers.
you NEED to be checking your engine, frequently.
thats a good start twoards doing that.

CelicaLaxer11
05-25-2006, 06:19 PM
I <3 Manny!


Plus Nuke mentioned this but I don't think anyone caught it.... are people gapping iridium plugs? Isn't that a No No?

alltracman78
05-27-2006, 02:52 PM
Well, considering the NGK BKR7IEX [irridium] comes with something a bit larger than .032" gap, it NEEDS to be gapped. For the 3SGTE anyways....

presure2
05-27-2006, 03:21 PM
I <3 Manny!


Plus Nuke mentioned this but I don't think anyone caught it.... are people gapping iridium plugs? Isn't that a No No?
only after they have been used, mike. :bigthumbu
and no, i dont love you back, queer :thefinger :lolhittin j/k man!

alltracman78
05-27-2006, 03:23 PM
Good point, stinky. :D

Aust162
05-28-2006, 08:06 AM
OK here are my plugs. bkr6e's

from left to right, 1-4. And Yes, they are all from the same motor.. :ugh:

1 being closest to oil cap and 4 being closest to dizzy cap.

These results might have something to do with my current "overheating" problem? :( i dont know..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Andrew8502/IMG_0623_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Andrew8502/IMG_0624_1.jpg

no:1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Andrew8502/IMG_0631_1.jpg

no:2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Andrew8502/IMG_0634_1.jpg

no:3
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Andrew8502/IMG_0635_1.jpg

no:4
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Andrew8502/IMG_0636_1.jpg

please tell me whats going on?