PDA

View Full Version : Thinkin of buying an ST165..



RallyK
12-11-2005, 05:50 AM
I was thinking of buying my friend's ST165 but he sent me this email:

Ok as far as the history I am not that sure. I was told that it was well taken care of. For the last two years it was owned by twin brothers that were commuting to school. They aren’t “car” people. The work that I have done is a thorough run through by my Toyota tech. All fluids were changed including front rear diffs, coolant, engine oil and gearbox oil. I had a coolant hose replaced as well (had a pinhole). There is a fairly recent clutch job done to it (there were some misc. bolts missing (front engine mount, right front CV and one of the rear cross member bolts.) all have been replaced. I am putting it up for $2200. the only thing that I can think that it needs is an alignment (steering wheel is off center). But other than that it is a pretty solid car.

Ryan

$2200 for a 4th gen!!!!!???? Sure in some parts of the country it's worth that, but jesus I know he only paid 1000 for it!

What do you guys think?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/rallyk/DSC00872.jpg

Murgatroy
12-11-2005, 06:04 AM
Jew him down to at least $1500.

Has he done all this work to it, or at least paid for it? It is reasonable to expect to give him some money for his effort, but not to pay for it in it's entirety.

Personally I would go for it. These cars are getting rarer and rarer. Get it and take care of it, or just thrash it. You know it is what you have been looking for. :hehe:

RallyK
12-11-2005, 06:13 AM
I know this isn't the right thing to be saying on this forum, but... I don't care so much about it being rare. I want to race it. I want to use it for rallyx. My subaru has a ticking sound (prob a lifter not a rod), it does NOT like to rev, it has no power, it's rough, the clutch isn't happy, etc etc. There are a number of reasons why I won't race the scooby. Mostly, the supensions sucks ASS. Sure if I was a middle aged woman with 2 kids I wouldn't mind the loosey-goosey handling... So.. I need something better. I'm concerned about the weight of the ST165, tho. The subie is 2420 and the trac is almost double!!!!! (!!@#$##!!!)

Dr Tweak
12-11-2005, 06:22 AM
That's what you get for buying a subie. :P

Hey, I know some guy who has a '90 ST for sale, CHEAP. It's getting a different engine next week because of a ticking noise it was making, but it'll be ready to race after that!

Oh and my advice on the ST165, if it's pretty well rust free then I would easily pay $1800 for it. If I had $1800, that is.

Murgatroy
12-11-2005, 06:24 AM
I am sure you can find parts for the Scoobie. I would like to have one, but nothing would stay unmodified and it would be for the sole purpose of smacking into banks and trees at high speeds.

The 165 will be exactly what you want. It was bred to do that.

1988GT4
12-11-2005, 06:49 AM
i bought myself a st165 as well...but i didnt pay nearly as much as that i paid 800CAN...and he had dropped a new 3sgte engine in it (new as in 40k on it) and plus i got a shit load of extra parts from him...dude u are definetely paying too much for it..

Dr Tweak
12-11-2005, 07:04 AM
Rallyk isn't a dude.

Don't ST185s go for like $4-$5000?

MrWOT
12-11-2005, 07:56 AM
Depending on the condition of the suspension and the interior, I'd pay ~$1800.

InitialD93
12-11-2005, 08:08 AM
i paid $250 for one 165 with good rust free body w/ bad paint and blown motor
then i got a 165 parts car (wrecked, frame damage) for $1200 from a toyota tech with a rebuilt engine... so i now have one good complete car for under 2K... i think i did well with my investments

RallyK
12-11-2005, 06:52 PM
yeah see, if I were to do that it would be the same price anyway. I'd rather not have to swap the engine. I have no garage and it's SNOWING!

Hey, a lot of people call me dude, it's just a part of speech ;)

Well I emailed him for more info like mileage and so on. I will go check it out and if it looks great then I'll have to think about what I want to pay. Without seeing it I'd say 1700 to start. If it's in immacculate shape then i'll say 1800 or 1850.

Damn I thought the scooby would be great for rally but it's a fucking commuter. I'd have to upgrade the suspension, get all new tires, and boost it for it to be nearly what I am looking for. BUT that would take me out of production class.

Lets talk about the ST165... for those who have one/have driven one.. How does it handle (stock) compared to other cars you've driven? (I'm expecting "well" but be more specific). I'm super concerned about the weight. How do you guys feel about the weight? will it be more of a challenge to get around tight corners (think dirt if you can). RallyX is a very tight sport -shifting from right to left in a hurry. I'm afraid the 165 won't be as nimble but perhaps its 180HP to all 4 wheels might make up that difference.

Thoughts?

Sean
12-11-2005, 07:01 PM
I imagine you dont have much of a budget for upgrades since your purchasing a sub 2k dollar car.

Stock struts and componets are going to be just as loosey goosey as your subaru. The car is nearly 17 years old! The bushings are going to be tired, the wheel bearings are probably soon to go, and the struts are most likely shot.

Its going to need some typical work, check out the rear diff mount, go through the suspension and replace things as needed. I'm sure it will be an excellent car to enter the rally world in.

Are their limitations for upgrades?


BTW: I think the 1.5-2k dollar range would be a decent sell for the car.

RallyK
12-11-2005, 10:03 PM
well aren't we optimistic, sean.....
Yes it will be old and tired but DIFFERENT from the subaru. The subaru was never tight to begin with. The struts are not shot on the 65.

blck87gtconv
12-11-2005, 10:28 PM
Rallyk isn't a dude.

Don't ST185s go for like $4-$5000?
Yes.. yes they do.

Don't let any of these ass-clowns tell you that $2200US is too much for an ST165 in running condition. IGNANT MOFO'S!! THE LOT OF YOU!.

/ex-local 4th gen guru and moderator.

SuperWhite92
12-11-2005, 11:01 PM
$2200 would be a fair price for a good running ST165.

ST185's can sell for $4000, all the way up to $9000 for a clean '93. I've seen some nice ones go for around $12,000 as well.

Dr Tweak
12-12-2005, 04:17 AM
That's what I was thinking. Heck, I saw an ST165 near here COMPLETELY rusted out for $1200, burning oil, and I would have snatched it up in a hearbeat if I had the cash. You just can't find 'em.

-Doc

RallyK
12-13-2005, 08:53 PM
I got a few more emails from him:
first email:
1988, 160k, yes timing belt has been done recently, rust is under drivers seat and on drivers rear quarter (under bumper cover), No, I don't know the compression, front tires are ok & rears could be better, The suspension is decent for the age of the car but would be a good upgrade if it was to be rallycrossed. It is Red and the interior is black.

second email:
Oh and all of the speakers are new. (Pioneer) in stock location. The only thing that isn’t going with it is the head unit. But I will throw in the factory connector and pigtail to go to an aftermarket headunit and I will put in the original or the one from my 4runner (both tape decks) I also may have a kenwood unit kicking around somewhere that is a CD player if you want that instead.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/rallyk/DSC00873.jpg http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/rallyk/DSC00875.jpg http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/rallyk/DSC00881.jpg

Azzazzyn
12-13-2005, 10:19 PM
get a 200sx se-r or a 240sx, they rawk. The 200sx has the semi same bodystle of the 240, but it was a fwd sr20de in it :)

RallyK
12-15-2005, 03:28 AM
Um, the point of getting the st165 is to have a stock turbo and AWD...

Murgatroy
12-15-2005, 03:42 AM
Bought it yet?

RallyK
12-15-2005, 06:19 AM
Haven't yet. He's not in a hurry and i'm not either. I won't be doing much with it til gravel shows. I can't afford to put lots of money into it til spring time. I'll have 3 cars and a motorcycle to insure and register. I will park Celi #2 til i have the cash to register it. (that's IF I get it).

My roommate is a mechanic and I think I convinced him to go look at it with me. We'll probably look at it on sunday (I hope). From there I need to find out if my bank will give me another loan. I already owe them 700 on my previous loan, but I've paid off a few so they should know I'm good for it.

My biggest concern is the rust because that's going to take quite a bit of work to repair and it will always be a reoccuring problem.

Colossus20v
12-16-2005, 01:41 AM
Theres things you can do to help out with the rust problem. Rally, I would get it if you really are serious about wanting to rally and stuff. I would get rid of one of the other cars. I would not mind having a 4th gen alltrac though.

Rick89GTS
12-16-2005, 06:34 AM
$2200 is a fair price for a 165 in good running condition. My 2 cents...

Luni
12-17-2005, 07:13 PM
K, youre gonna have to go drive the car. Thats the only way youre gonna know if its right for you. If you and the car click then it go for it. If you like it and want to commit to making it what you want then get it, Id still try and talk him down on the price a bit though, but if he wont come down, and you still want it, go for it. I dunno, its hard for us to tell you whether to get it or not without seeing it. Go drive it, listen for odd noises, check the brakes, make sure theyre not all warped and fucked, look at the brake fluid, it shouldnt be black. If it is black, the braking system has never been cleaned or flushed out and it needs to be done ASAP. If it has ABS make sure the ABS works. Look for trouble codes (the bgb will tell you how) and make sure theres no stored codes. Make sure it boosts correctly. Make sure the car tracks correctly on the road. Alignment isnt a HUGE issue as your can go to firestone and buy a lifetime alignment for like 170 bux or something. Just check everything. Thats all I can tell ya.

alltracman78
12-18-2005, 01:34 AM
Don't buy it.
Alltracs are useless money pits......

RallyK
12-18-2005, 06:07 AM
Luni, I think you and Alltracman disagree on a few point about the handling. I am most concerned about the weight of the car and how nimble it will be in shifting from right hand turns to left hand turns. ATM says that it can be quite a tank but I if I remember correctly, you said it's not too much to worry about, that it's nimble enough. What do you two think about this? Also, what do you two think about weight (F/R ratios?

Luni
12-18-2005, 06:37 AM
I dunno K, like I said my experience is limited to other cars. You should ask Dittrick how he feels his car handles. Ask MrWOT too. He seems to like his. Jeremys is a 5th gen and they are quite different. You drove it didnt you? How did it feel? Travs DSM is kind of a tank, but its a tank in a good way. It transitions wonderfully, and it always pulls itself out of trouble. It has never given me the impression through the steering input that it wouldnt do what I asked of it. I can still break the ass end free when I want to and oversteer, and when Im in the correction stage of the turn the front tires drag the ass back into line because of the power transfer going back to the front to regain traction. And of course it happens so fast you dont really feel it doing it, you just feel the results of it.

4th gen tracs are lighter than 5th gen ones by about 150 lbs or so. That puts a 4th gen alltrac right about where a 1g DSM is. All I know is Ive driven DSMs and BMWs that weighed as much as an alltrac and they felt fine. My buddies 93 DSM feels great. My other buddies 99 BMW M3 also feels awesome. Handles every bit as well as my MR2. Its just a different balance feeling. My car transitions quick and makes sharp movements easy. Its also easy to upset the balance of my car as a result. His car makes nice transitions but it feels more solid when doing it. Its more surefooted. Might be made in part by the wide ass tires he has, but the car just feels nice. It doesnt feel near as heavy as it really is. I dont know if thats how it is on an alltrac, but it shouldnt be that bad. Its not like alltrac owners complain their cars handle like shit. MrWOT loves his, he tears shit up in it all the time. He goes through tires like a fat kid going through candy.

For rally, on dirt, you dont necessarily want a car that will change direction on you TOTALLY easily, if you did, youd want to get an MR2. You want one that doesnt require a LOT of effort to change directions, and yet again not a LOT of effort to stop the changing of direction.

Like I said, they used these things in rally for years. Its what the car was designed to do and while they didnt DOMINATE, they totally held their own and were generally in the top positions.

But ultimately I think you need to stop MUSING about it, and just go drive the damn thing. The weight distribution on these cars is about 60/40 or 65/35. However the drivetrain distribution is 50/50 IIRC.

But really, go drive the damn thing. See how you like it. Take a few turns in it, see how confident it makes you at the limits. Find yourself a parking lot to play in for a minute. I really dunno.

alltracman78
12-18-2005, 07:05 AM
I should clarify what I meant. Keep in mind I've never driven a 4th g Alltrac.
They are heavy, and kinda piggish. However, the extra weight helps quite a bit with traction. They are not quite as nimble on pavement, and do understeer a bit in stock form.
However, once you are in a limited traction area [snow/dirt/ect], you can steer with the throttle, and they handle pretty well. They will go where you want them to.
Remember, they won plenty of races with these. Against cars that were [in some cases] 600lbs lighter.

Luni is right, take it for a drive. :D

And she didn't give my baby hell. Only I can do that. :D

RallyK
12-19-2005, 12:15 AM
Ok. I checked out the car today. Test drove it and everything.

Rust: Major problem. I don't care if some little spot behind the wheels is rusty but when the floor pan is rotting out, that's another story. We (my roomie and I) found a hole and soft (very soft) spots! Bottom line: Inspection problems, $$$.

Boost: What boost? Turbo's on it's last legs it seems. It felt N/A

Suspension: clunk clunk clunk.. needs front struts.

Steering: Nothing was wrong with it.. tho, it steers like fat woman with an oversized booty.

Brakes: OMFG... Pedal to the floor! I slammed on the brakes on a straightaway and lub lub lub lub.. warped rotors.

Clutch=AWESOME! Tranny=AWESOME!

Sounds so sexay!

Maine in winter is a reality.... the heat wasn't working.

All in all.... I wouldn't pay 1200 for it. 1000 is a stretch. 860-900 sounds just about right.

Murgatroy
12-19-2005, 12:17 AM
Make your offer and walk away. If he gets desperate to sell it, he will remember you.

RallyK
12-20-2005, 12:21 AM
Exactly.

As I thought about it more, I realized... the boost guage was going all the way up to 8lbs but you couldn't feel it in the engine, so sadly, I think the engine was just losing power.. maybe on its way out. The turbo must have been working fine but the engine was lagging...

thoughts?

alltracman78
12-20-2005, 12:43 AM
Don't buy it.
Alltracs are useless money pits......


:D

Nemesis3S-GTE
12-20-2005, 04:09 AM
It does sound like there are quite a few things wrong with it, I would definitely not pay $2200 for it in that condition. As for the handling, my experience is limited to the ST-185 but they are surprisingly nimble feeling for such a heavy car. The short (relatively) wheelbase has some to do with it I'm sure, but it does go where you want it to. I let my friend who has some rally experience drive it in the snow last week (he's a co-driver for an EVO team in SCCA Pro Rally) and he said it turned much better and felt much lighter than he expected it to. My only rallyx experience was last winter on a snow course where I had all-seasons on the car :nono: , so I can't tell you much more from personal experience. I'd say you should really look into a 165 for your purposes, but this may not be the one to get. Hope this helps.