PDA

View Full Version : JIC Magic SA-1



ScottGT-S
11-20-2005, 06:04 PM
Since Tein only supports the ST185, I've been looking closely at getting the SA-1's. Are there any other companys who offer a full coil over system for ST184s? Has anyone here had experience with the JIC setup?
http://www.istoreparts.com/images/jic/jic_SF1.jpg

Adrian Avgerinos
11-20-2005, 06:36 PM
I haven't had experience with them, but the Honda guys over at honda-tech.com have had some bad experiences with quality and customer service from JIC.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-20-2005, 09:33 PM
why can't we use the teins on the st184's, wouldn't they just have a stiffer suspension because the alltrac is heavier, should be the exact same mounting points.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-20-2005, 09:56 PM
Nope. The rear knuckle mounts are slightly different.

KoreanJoey
11-21-2005, 03:08 AM
I'm in the process of tracking down aftermarket suspensions in Japan... hopefully I'll be able to find something better than JICs or Teins... if not... I'll cry.

ScottGT-S
11-21-2005, 06:07 AM
please let us know if you find anything

3sgte@daspeedof
11-21-2005, 08:29 AM
can I just re-weld the rear nuckle mounts to where it should be on the st184's

Sean
11-21-2005, 08:50 AM
I want to start a new thread for this...

Sean
11-21-2005, 09:30 AM
Sucks that JIC doesnt make the FL2A2's for our celica, those would rock :(

As far as the SA2, I would prefer to have the height adjustable at the steering knuckle level, versus the spring perch. 7kg/5kg seems a little wack to me? I'll have to look at Adrian's post again to compare...

I rode in a 8/4kb setup today in an alltrac, and man was that fun :)

KoreanJoey
11-21-2005, 09:31 AM
alltrac = lot heavier... but I don't understand why the rear is more on the ST184...

Adrian Avgerinos
11-21-2005, 02:31 PM
can I just re-weld the rear nuckle mounts to where it should be on the st184's

Why all that work for a mediocre product? At that point you may as well save your money, and put more effort in for a set of KONIs with GCs and end up with better results.


Sucks that JIC doesnt make the FL2A2's for our celica, those would rock :(

As far as the SA2, I would prefer to have the height adjustable at the steering knuckle level, versus the spring perch. 7kg/5kg seems a little wack to me? I'll have to look at Adrian's post again to compare...

I rode in a 8/4kb setup today in an alltrac, and man was that fun :)

The setup is probably intended more for street cars that don't actually race. It's a safe setup that will probably understeer at the limit which is good for folks that are clueless. However, it will ride nicer with the softer springs out back and an upgraded rear sway bar may compliment the setup nicely.

Sean
11-21-2005, 03:53 PM
Why all that work for a mediocre product? At that point you may as well save your money, and put more effort in for a set of KONIs with GCs and end up with better results.

Why would you say that? What about the Tein SS setup is mediorce? I'll have to do some more searching....

3sgte@daspeedof
11-21-2005, 05:24 PM
Tein SS setup was what I wanted to go with to begin with, I want a nice set up, that will work for a daily drive, but beable to tune into it when I do take it to the stip.

And yes I wanted full coilovers, cuse I don't have the time to do the same suspension that u did Adrian and I don't even know how well ur setup would work for me

Adrian Avgerinos
11-21-2005, 07:37 PM
Why would you say that? What about the Tein SS setup is mediorce? I'll have to do some more searching....
When I reference quality I am refering to the damper design exclusively and not the pretty JDM-yo! accessories affixed to them like electronic adjusters, anodized perches, etc. A good portion of lower end (sub $2000) coilover kits from east Asia control the damping with a needle valve. To adjust the damping the needle is moved closer or further from the hole. This design, while cheap, has a couple of drawbacks:

1) Due to the design you won't feel a difference until the hole is almost completely closed up. (i.e. only the last few "clicks" make a real difference in how the suspension feels)

2) Linear valving. This means that the damping will increase equally by the increase in force applied. The alternative, which has been used in offroad racing for years, is what's called digressive valving. Effectively, this means that at high speed cycles (i.e. hitting a pothole or bumps in the road), the damping is minimal, but at low speeds (i.e. taking a sharp turn, hitting the brakes, etc.), the damping is much higher. This results in a better ride quality on the street but with better damping for taking the turns.

The best way to see this is to look at shock dyno graphs that plot force vs velocity and check out the differences. For now, this thread over at Honda-tech.com is the best resource for comparisons:

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1104049

If anyone is interested I can try to put together a complete thread on WTF all that stuff means and how it will affect the performance of your car.

Sean
11-21-2005, 09:22 PM
When I reference quality I am refering to the damper design exclusively and not the pretty JDM-yo!

Please dont confuse my Tein interest with hype versus functionality.




coilover kits from east Asia control the damping with a needle valve.

Do you have any further information about Tein's specifically? Is Tein guilty of this subpar valving system as well? Without generalizing, are the valves inferior in design for Tein SS system? Do you have any links to pictures or cross sections of dampers from Tein, with comparison to Koni? I'm not "calling you out" so please do not confuse this, I'm merely picking your packed brain :)


1) Due to the design you won't feel a difference until the hole is almost completely closed up. (i.e. only the last few "clicks" make a real difference in how the suspension feels)

Tein's system does not seem to be included in those "Dyno's". Or perhaps Tein's uses componets from KYB, KONI, or some other company, so I'm perhaps overlooking it? I assume your getting at the fact that Tein does not incorporate digress valving in their damper's?


2) Linear valving. This means that the damping will increase equally by the increase in force applied. The alternative, which has been used in offroad racing for years, is what's called digressive valving. Effectively, this means that at high speed cycles (i.e. hitting a pothole or bumps in the road), the damping is minimal, but at low speeds (i.e. taking a sharp turn, hitting the brakes, etc.), the damping is much higher. This results in a better ride quality on the street but with better damping for taking the turns.

This makes a lot of sense to me, so again, does the Tein SS system fall into this fault? So most likely you should expect an uncomfortable daily driver at highway speeds where the struts are going to be subject to high velocity forces, and the strut will compensate with an equal and opposite reaction, a vulgar opposing force.

Where I get confused, is the fact that the rebound is what is actually adjusted. By controlling the rate of expansion, I can see how this will effect ride quality, but I do not understand why compression is not effected and taken into consideration with the other half of the dampening system. Understand what I'm asking?


The best way to see this is to look at shock dyno graphs that plot force vs velocity and check out the differences. For now, this thread over at Honda-tech.com is the best resource for comparisons:

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1104049

If anyone is interested I can try to put together a complete thread on WTF all that stuff means and how it will affect the performance of your car.

Its all pretty clear. Its unfortunate that we have minimal choices in the strut world. If you could provide me with some Tein damper dyno's that would be wonderful, or at least hold my hand to the correct Tein Dyno plot (maybe i missed it :slap: ). I couldnt even find on the Tein site if the dampers were a monotube, or twin tube design, hmmm....


So, your best scenario alternative is to match up your own strut/spring combo. I need to read again and again on how to match spring rates with dampening rates, as well as your threads on these mutant coilovers :)

Im still considering if the valve issue is enough to deter me from buying Tein's. If they're still going to handle well at low speeds in comparison to other struts, then I've accomplished one major goal already.

You see, I have virtually no functional struts on my car, and its been this way for many many miles. Any type of highway dampening would be far superior to what I currently have. After riding in that alltrac yesterday (also had the whiteline rear swaybar) I'm very very hooked on these. We went down this bumpy potholed filled road, and the damn thing felt like an escalade. It took the bumps with ease at considerable speeds, and left the driver to do his job, steer.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-21-2005, 11:10 PM
^^ I accually understood what you mean, and I'm looking for the same answers

KoreanJoey
11-22-2005, 05:52 AM
Ok, to give you an idea, try DRIVING a car that has Teins and compare it to a car that's got a good suspension... IE: HKS Hypermax or something to that effect. You'll notice an immediate difference. Tein is more for the street (which is fine, and they do great for that) but aren't really meant for the track. A track suspension is what I'm looking for. If I can find some HKS or Olie suspensions for my car I'd be set. I'm gonna start looking now as a matter of fact.

Sean
11-22-2005, 06:17 AM
Ok, to give you an idea, try DRIVING a car that has Teins and compare it to a car that's got a good suspension... IE: HKS Hypermax or something to that effect. You'll notice an immediate difference. Tein is more for the street (which is fine, and they do great for that) but aren't really meant for the track. A track suspension is what I'm looking for. If I can find some HKS or Olie suspensions for my car I'd be set. I'm gonna start looking now as a matter of fact.

You've gotta be kidding me? How are they not capable of handling the track? Thats their main focal point.

If anything, there great for the track, but may lack as a daily driver.

I'm going to use my google friend and see what I can come up with...

Sean
11-22-2005, 07:18 AM
Found this info at probe talk, including a EXTENSIVE review by a very credible ex Roush test driver....

http://forums.probetalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1245
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701174525

It seems to me the valve's are not an issue by his impressions.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-22-2005, 02:25 PM
Please dont confuse my Tein interest with hype versus functionality.





Do you have any further information about Tein's specifically? Is Tein guilty of this subpar valving system as well? Without generalizing, are the valves inferior in design for Tein SS system? Do you have any links to pictures or cross sections of dampers from Tein, with comparison to Koni? I'm not "calling you out" so please do not confuse this, I'm merely picking your packed brain :)



Tein's system does not seem to be included in those "Dyno's". Or perhaps Tein's uses componets from KYB, KONI, or some other company, so I'm perhaps overlooking it? I assume your getting at the fact that Tein does not incorporate digress valving in their damper's?



This makes a lot of sense to me, so again, does the Tein SS system fall into this fault? So most likely you should expect an uncomfortable daily driver at highway speeds where the struts are going to be subject to high velocity forces, and the strut will compensate with an equal and opposite reaction, a vulgar opposing force.

Where I get confused, is the fact that the rebound is what is actually adjusted. By controlling the rate of expansion, I can see how this will effect ride quality, but I do not understand why compression is not effected and taken into consideration with the other half of the dampening system. Understand what I'm asking?



Its all pretty clear. Its unfortunate that we have minimal choices in the strut world. If you could provide me with some Tein damper dyno's that would be wonderful, or at least hold my hand to the correct Tein Dyno plot (maybe i missed it :slap: ). I couldnt even find on the Tein site if the dampers were a monotube, or twin tube design, hmmm....


So, your best scenario alternative is to match up your own strut/spring combo. I need to read again and again on how to match spring rates with dampening rates, as well as your threads on these mutant coilovers :)

Im still considering if the valve issue is enough to deter me from buying Tein's. If they're still going to handle well at low speeds in comparison to other struts, then I've accomplished one major goal already.

You see, I have virtually no functional struts on my car, and its been this way for many many miles. Any type of highway dampening would be far superior to what I currently have. After riding in that alltrac yesterday (also had the whiteline rear swaybar) I'm very very hooked on these. We went down this bumpy potholed filled road, and the damn thing felt like an escalade. It took the bumps with ease at considerable speeds, and left the driver to do his job, steer.

On that Honda website, there is a plot shown for the TEIN RA damper. That's about it.

I'll get back to you with all your other questions, but I may not have time before Thanksgiving.


Adrian

Sean
11-22-2005, 08:05 PM
Looking forward to it! Though, I must say that I'm pretty sold!

This guy has no reason to be partial to Tein, so his review should not be biased. He also boats extensive track experience, so read this review!

Posted by Racy Stacey:

TEIN Driving Impressions
Driving impressions
Test Driver: Stacey B. ‘Racy-Stacey’ SCCA Club racer and former Roush test driver.
Passenger: Mike P. Car owner of the test mule.
Vehicle specs: ’93 Ford Probe GT – TEIN Super Street suspension
Swaybar: Front: Stock Rear: 16mm Mazdaspeed Rear Stabilzer
No Strut Tower Bars
Alignment settings: FRONT [Zero Setting on Camber Plates] - (L) Camber -1.5 Caster +3.0 Toe +0.15 (R) Camber -1.5 Caster +3.3 Toe +0.17 REAR - (L) Camber -0.8 Toe +0.14 (R) Camber -0.8 Toe +0.12 Thrust Angle -0.01
Dampening Setting: (16) Softest setting X4 corners
Vehicle weight: 2 passengers 350 lbs – 25 lbs in luggage in hatch area.

TEIN - TEST ONE

Regular daily type driving
1. Small bumps
2. Cruising
3. Driveway feel

During the Regular driving test at the softest setting I rode as a passenger and drove the car. When I was a passenger I noticed right away, that even though the suspension dampening was on the softest setting. The car still had a little more feel of the road than what you could compare to from a sedan with a floated suspension. So quickly I equated that this suspension is not a stock replacement. So any comparisons to a soft riding suspension with minimal driver feedback could now be thrown out. Cruising was crisp and lane changes were very comfortable. When we entered a driveway with a 1” lip we felt the front tire crawl over the lip. So the feedback to the driver of road surfaces is precise. It wasn’t jarring or bouncing but you did feel it. Also unlike other cars I’ve ridden in. The car didn’t seem to twist and strain the suspension.

TEIN – TEST TWO

Canyon driving
1. Transition
2. Cornering hold
3. Push / Rotate
4. Braking/ acceleration
5. Emergency avoidance


Test two was performed in Turnboe Canyon. Due to time constraints we could only run through three settings of the suspensions overall dampening settings. (16),(10)&(6). The Super Street comes with 16 settings. 16 being the softest, and 1 being the tightest, we continued the test with the settings at all four corners at (16).

The first turn was in a residential area and the speed was about 15 mph. I didn’t lift off the throttle; I rolled off about 20% throttle and made a quick 90 left-hander. The car responded very surprisingly flat. As I approached the end of mid corner I increased the throttle to pull the car the rest of the way and realized I didn’t need to. The car went through the corner very flat and this was at the softest setting. There was a little body roll but nothing outside of what you would suspect from a performance suspension. The next couple of turns were also at relatively low speed. So I have to say that at this setting the car is very forgiving. If the driver makes a mistake and has to react quickly and gets out of there comfort zone the car will assist them at low speeds. Steering input was also very nice and didn’t require any effort to turn the car.

The next series of turns involved hills and corners. The first part of the canyon is very twisty and low speed. We took the first 4 corners in third gear. The posted speed 15mph. The car tracked very nicely through at 24. The next part was an ascending climb to a tight 90 deg turn. With our increased speed we found the car push a little and did a little throttle lift to bring the front traction back. The softness of the dampening we agreed was the cause of this. The next series of corners gave me the impression of driving a newer sedan with high technology in the suspension. The car flowed through the corners with my every steering input. I tested nose-dive and there was a very acceptable amount. The suspension hunched down and the felt planted. The suspension didn’t feel as if it bottomed out its travel, which was really nice since we were at such a soft setting. The front tires led the rear at this setting so the car would push and there wasn’t any rear end rotation. At the limits the car made the driver feel in control of the car and not a passenger.

At the top of the mountain we decided to change the settings to the next level. (10). Here was started out very conservatively as before. Like before I wanted to work my way up to what the suspension had to offer. The first series of corners were all down hill. The slow speeds – 25-35 – kept everything very comfortable. The transition from left to right was very noticeably different from the previous setting. The car also drove over terrain differently. The cars suspension started to entice the driver to drive it a little hard or aggressively through the corners. The ability to whip the steering wheel around and stay hooked to the road was really nice. At this setting I made the comparison between the Tokico-Illumina / Eibach suspension. Perhaps (11) would get you a very similar feel. So at this level the car was now very familiar to drive. The handling had now grown up a bit. The car started carving though the canyon and was very forgiving again, but not so much as to let my mother drive it around like this. The straight line bumps in the road are now more pronounced and the increased steering response would be to much for her. Braking dive and acceleration were very nice again. At this level the car could be pushed but to achieve rear end rotation you needed either sharp throttle off cornering or ‘Fade’ type drive technique to get the rear end to rotate. The front end had more bite and didn’t push nearly as much at this setting.
TEIN - Test three - Setting on (6)

This next test involved setting all 4 corners once again the same at [6]. This is the hardest setting we felt we should try before the sun went down. Accelerating away from a dead stop felt just like the past couple of settings. As I increased the speed I started to rotate the steering very smoothly from left to right still traveling forward and at a slight upward angle at about 20 mph. I did this to get a feel of steering response at this setting. The response indicated that the car was steering much sharper than before. The first part of the canyon took us back again through the same section as we did at the (16) setting. But something happened this time that didn’t happen the last time. As we climbed up the hill and made the sweeping left hand turn. I felt the car skip off a bump in the road. The car must have skipped about 3 inches off the bump. A bump at the (16) setting that we never noticed before. Also at the top of the first part of the hill as it made a sharp right hand turn I noticed that the car was now starting to rotate through the turn. So the suspension now is so stiff that it bounces off bumps on the road and allows the rear end to rotate a little during a sharp right hand turn.

Once I increased the speed a little I tried some avoidance steering inputs to see if the car was safe to toss around at this setting. The steering response was unbelievable. The sharpness gave me the confidence I needed. The next thing that I noticed was the over all feel of the car. It once again went through a metamorphosis. I felt like I was driving a track car. It did feel a lot more like Gavin’s autocross-prepped 1st gen MX-6 GT, but it didn’t handle like that car. Gavin’s setup is tuned to be very rear end happy. This was not, and the first 4 or 5 turns gave me inspiration to test at higher speeds. The first things I noticed was the acceleration and braking transitions were very smooth like the (10) setting before. The suspension was begging for sticky tires as I drove harder and harder through some of the very sharp 90 and 120 deg turns. At this setting you are certainly in a track/autocross car type setup, because the car reacts like it. ‘This is Fun‘ is what I said, as I slowed it down and thought about all the new sensations I was experiencing. Through some of the corners it was like you were riding a roller coaster. The car turned where you pointed it and did everything smoothly. I used a lot of left foot braking and other racing techniques to really push the limits of the tires. Through one turn I tested mid corner avoidance steering and the rear end reacted more responsive. I can force the rear end to rotate, but it didn’t want to do it on its own. Throttle rotational steering is great for people who like a neutral feeling car. With a little less front dampening or a little more rear dampening, it is very possible that you can really rotate the car through the turns with steering and throttle inputs.

During the test we also noticed that we never bottomed out the suspension. The hills we drove had left and right hand turns that were flat and some went up hill and some went down hill and some s-curve transitions went from on-camber left to on camber right, that really tested the flexibility of the cars suspension to keep it planted to the ground through these back and fourth transitions.


Overall Impression

The TEIN Super Street suspension system can truly be called a performance suspension upgrade. Even at its softest setting you can feel your riding on a performance suspension. You wont get a Cadillac soft and cushy ride with this suspension. So if your looking for one this isn’t the one for you. But for the rest of us looking for a performance suspension this could be the last one you ever need to buy. The flexibility, the cost, the choice of springs, the low cost to replace/change springs, the ability to service the struts, the ability to tune the struts to your liking. All these things make the TEIN suspension stand out.

The adjustability of the Super Street allows you to go from its lowest (softest) setting (16-13) – and achieve an entry level performance suspension feel with some very nice manners. Take the next step and tune it up a little to the mid range (12-8) and your now on par with most of performance suspension set-ups currently available. Tune it up even more to achieve some really track worthy characteristics (7-1). All this can be done within a few minutes, with a twist of a strut valve. This was one of the really exciting parts of the test. We realized that roughly every 4 clicks of adjustment, brings you a totally different feel. As if you just completely changed out your suspension for a different one. Set it to do what you want, and with the availability of the EDFC you can change on the fly. You can experience the full range of adjustability as you need it, or want it.

To think that after so much time, to think that after so many years, so many other suspension systems or hack jobs. To think that finally we can get the suspension that we’ve always wanted - Is finally here, is very exciting! I was impressed; I was happily surprised at what the ride quality was like. I was happy, and felt satisfied that my enthusiasm and optimistic feelings of what TEIN was making for us would unfold. It is a great system, and to think that there are other more advanced systems in TEIN’s line up is just scary. After the long back and forth drive up and down the mountain we talked about the TEIN basic damper. If its even 20% of this system its going to be worth every dollar. Having a system specifically made for our cars is what sets this apart from anything else I’ve ridden in. In a few words – Versatile – Ease of adjustment – ride quality – and driver confidence.

Thanks for reading.. "



I'm pretty much sold! You cant be certain that the Tein RA's (unless you for a fact do know) are the same componets as the SS.

If you could just answer one, quick question. What type of valves do the Tein SS use?

Adrian Avgerinos
11-22-2005, 08:33 PM
Looking forward to it! Though, I must say that I'm pretty sold!

This guy has no reason to be partial to Tein, so his review should not be biased. He also boats extensive track experience, so read this review!


The problem with a driver review is that it's soley based on how the driver feels. You may not feel the same way as this guy, no matter how good a driver he is. How is his opinion more correct than your opinion?

To answer your question directly regarding TEIN construction: I don't know.

I'll try to find out though.

Adrian

Sean
11-22-2005, 08:47 PM
I realize this, its all relative. A harsh ride for one person, may just be the kindest ride for another...

I just want the best I can find, and I want to be sure of what im spending 1500 dollars on, ya know?

Thanks again Adrian

BTW: I also have emails out to GC, and Tein. I hope to hear back from them soon :cool:

Adrian Avgerinos
11-22-2005, 09:44 PM
Just curious, what did you ask of Ground Control?

Funny, I also e-mailed TEIN. Let's see what happens.

Adrian

Sean
11-22-2005, 09:52 PM
Just curious, what did you ask of Ground Control?

Funny, I also e-mailed TEIN. Let's see what happens.

Adrian

I forget, let me look :hehe:

Woops, I meant JIC:
Have a 1991 Celica GTS and I'm inquiring about coilovers. it appears you have a possible match with the SA1 series. Though, I would prefer the features, and the quality of the FL2A2's.

There is quite a demand right now for coilovers for this market. Though, I have heard of some quality concerns from some honda-tech.com people. Can you address this?

Can you find something to work with my car? Tein has a possible setup from the alltrac, I will have to alter the rears a bit, but whats new i guess....

Sean

And to Tein:
Hello, my name is Sean, and I drive a 91 Toyota Celica GTS (sort of, with bits of mr2, Celica alltrac, and others spread throughout) that is in dire need of a suspension overhaul!

Today, I had the pleasure of helping a buddy install some Tein SS on his 90 Celica Alltrac, what beautiful pieces these coil overs were! I examined, looked, scratched, looked, and really could not see any eye popping difference in the strut assembly between my GTS, and the Alltrac. So, why wont these awesome struts work on my car? Its gotta be just a minor, minor adjustment quirk to get these things to work? The only problem I see, is that its would be possible the rear spring rates would be too stiff for my rear end that lacks all of that heavy, slow you down drivetrain?

Please Tein, please help us celica's out : ( I know a lot of custom fabricators, so im just thinking of buying some for an alltrac, and going from there....

One last point, you guys are away that on the rear of the alltrac, the brake line holster interferes with any sway bar upgrade, correct?

Sean





I realize I'm not the most intelligent man, but I hope to at least stir some sort of response out of them. Get back to me Adrian on what they answer to you, it appears I didnt even ask the right question! :slap:

xeril
11-23-2005, 06:15 AM
Ok, to give you an idea, try DRIVING a car that has Teins and compare it to a car that's got a good suspension... IE: HKS Hypermax or something to that effect. You'll notice an immediate difference. Tein is more for the street (which is fine, and they do great for that) but aren't really meant for the track. A track suspension is what I'm looking for. If I can find some HKS or Olie suspensions for my car I'd be set. I'm gonna start looking now as a matter of fact.

i agree with this person. i've had the honors of riding in a car with tein ss coilovers (a 96 prelude i believe?) and a few cars with koni's and various other springs. i've found that EVERY time, the car with the koni's felt nicer and more responsive. i mean, i dunno how to explain it to you. go on to nasioc and ask a person named "psyber_optix". he could explain it all much better than me. i just know from multiple personal experiences that i would never purchase teins, expecially not SS'. it does not even come close to compare what you can get with groundcontrols and koni's.

KoreanJoey
11-23-2005, 06:25 AM
I've gotten a hold of Upgarage in japan and I got my guy looking for some "cool" suspensions for me. I'll let you know what he comes up with.

Sean
11-23-2005, 06:28 AM
I've gotten a hold of Upgarage in japan and I got my guy looking for some "cool" suspensions for me. I'll let you know what he comes up with.

I dont want something that is going to have minimal product support. Tein is extremely good at assisting, following up, and correcting up any follow up they've made. They also have a overhaul kit, which is very nice :)

Im sold though anyways, I cant wait to find some Tein SS. The fun part now is to see what kind of modification is going to be necessary. I think between this, some new poly-bushings, a whileline rear sway bar, and a rear strut bar, my car should be set :)

Adrian Avgerinos
11-23-2005, 10:58 PM
I dont want something that is going to have minimal product support. Tein is extremely good at assisting, following up, and correcting up any follow up they've made. They also have a overhaul kit, which is very nice :)

Im sold though anyways, I cant wait to find some Tein SS. The fun part now is to see what kind of modification is going to be necessary. I think between this, some new poly-bushings, a whileline rear sway bar, and a rear strut bar, my car should be set :)

While we wait for replies from TEIN and JIC, I suggest reading through this thread:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=878754&page=1

Looking past the customer service issues (and A LOT of bullshit), you can see what sort of elements make for a well designed damper.

Sean
11-24-2005, 09:00 AM
Wow :rollseyes: what a response...


Sean,
Thank you for your interest in TEIN High Performance Suspension Products. Unfortunately the only Celica of the similar year that we have tested was the Alltrac. Since we are not familiar with the other models we cannot guarantee fitment nor list the similarities of the kit. We apologize for the inconvenience and appreciate your understanding. Thank you/

Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.
9798 Firestone Blvd.
Downey, CA 90241
Phone: (562)861-9161
Fax: (562)861-9171

ScottGT-S
11-25-2005, 07:11 AM
I think we should FLOOD Tein with emails from all of our members.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-25-2005, 07:24 AM
yes, thats a good idea I'm gonna get on them too, as well as call them once a day.

Sean
11-25-2005, 08:41 AM
I honestly didnt think enough people were interested, I could seriously organize something like this though!

KoreanJoey
11-25-2005, 11:45 AM
I honestly didnt think enough people were interested, I could seriously organize something like this though!

me no money :(

Adrian Avgerinos
11-25-2005, 05:06 PM
I think we should FLOOD Tein with emails from all of our members.

That won't do any good, unfortunately.

This is coming from someone who works in the automotive aftermarket industry (heard of Jackson Racing?). There's not a large enough market to get a large company to turn a profit on a new product like this.

Do you honestly foresee TEIN selling 100 kits a year? 75 kits? A 10 year product run would be 750 kits which is probably 10 times the amount of people you could find to "flood" them with e-mails and 20 times as many folks that may actually purchase in the next 5 years. Maybe if you were able to get 100 of your friends to supply a $500 deposit EACH, then TEIN may consider the option. However, you know that won't happen.

Call TEIN and see if they will tell you how many 92-95 Civic kits are sold each year. They may or many not say. If they tell you, you will be surprised at the large number.

I hate to rain on your parade, but petitioning does no good and I wanted to bring this discussion back to reality. If they don't see a profit, they won't make the product. It’s just the way business works.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-25-2005, 06:39 PM
but they make them for alltrac's and how many of those sell a year, they would probably sell the same number as they would for the alltracs if they were direct bolt ons for the fwd celica.

Sean
11-25-2005, 08:13 PM
but they make them for alltrac's and how many of those sell a year, they would probably sell the same number as they would for the alltracs if they were direct bolt ons for the fwd celica.

Which is what I'm saying. The spring rates are spot on to what I would prefer, and the fronts are already identical. All they have to do is locate one flange, and voila!

Ill call them on monday :) But lets save this convo for another thread.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-25-2005, 09:36 PM
but they make them for alltrac's and how many of those sell a year, they would probably sell the same number as they would for the alltracs if they were direct bolt ons for the fwd celica.
How do you know they don't plan to cancel the Alltrac product line in the next 6 months? At this point, who knows whether they are making new Alltrac kits, or whether it's 5 year old stock back when the cars were newer. Maybe they only plan to sell the Alltrac kits until stock is depleted.

There's just too may variables to assume that just because the Alltrac kit is close to fitting, that it wouldn't be cost prohibitive to make a kit for you car.

Sean
11-25-2005, 09:56 PM
Doesnt hurt to ask, right?

3sgte@daspeedof
11-25-2005, 10:11 PM
hondas where not always a tuner car, as soon as there became a following for them people started tuning them. I know that celicas are become more and more popular, they are not like every 100 hondas u see a day, toyota reliablility is a big plus. The price of the car is coming down as you are seeing people buy them from a few hundred dollars to upwards of 5,6,7 grand for a swapped one(specifically 5th gens). There are over 6 forums dedecated to just celicas. What does that say about the car.

They are a company that builds suspension components, even if they were just selling out there inventory for what they had made in previous years, they would still have the design and specs, so if the demand was there they could build a batch if need be, they wouldn't throw that possibility away. its like saying I made 50grand selling these over the years, but I'm gonna burn my bridges and my info on these cuse no one will ever want to buy these again. It would never happen like that. So I can believe that they will make these for us if we show them that enough people want there product.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-26-2005, 01:04 AM
hondas where not always a tuner car, as soon as there became a following for them people started tuning them. I know that celicas are become more and more popular, they are not like every 100 hondas u see a day, toyota reliablility is a big plus. The price of the car is coming down as you are seeing people buy them from a few hundred dollars to upwards of 5,6,7 grand for a swapped one(specifically 5th gens). There are over 6 forums dedecated to just celicas. What does that say about the car.

Celicatech members: 3,000
Hondatech members: 165,000

Hmm....



They are a company that builds suspension components, even if they were just selling out there inventory for what they had made in previous years, they would still have the design and specs, so if the demand was there they could build a batch if need be, they wouldn't throw that possibility away. its like saying I made 50grand selling these over the years, but I'm gonna burn my bridges and my info on these cuse no one will ever want to buy these again. It would never happen like that. So I can believe that they will make these for us if we show them that enough people want there product.

It doesn't quite work that way. Not only do you have to design the product, but you have to test it, and then set up an assembly line to build the product using different jigs.

This comes after the fact that they decide this project will make money. Let’s say the initial cost for development is $10,000. To keep the product on the shelf for 1 year, they build 100 kits. At that amount let’s pretend it costs them $1300 a kit to build. So they’re looking at an initial investment of $140,000 and you have no clue whether you will sell all 100 kits this first year. At a typical 30% markup, that’s a retail cost of around $1690. At that price, they will have to sell 83 kits to break even.

If they build a 3 year supply, they drop the cost to $1100 (hypothetically), but then the initial investment jumps to $340,000. Retail drops to $1430 but they now need to sell 238 kits to break even. Also, the longer the product sits on the shelf the more money they lose. If they’re 3 year supply takes 10 years to deplete, they won’t make money.

Tell you what, when TEIN tells you they have no plans to offer anything for the ST182/184, ask them why and explain this thread. Maybe, if the rep you are speaking with is friendly and chatty, he/she may give you some insight into their reasoning. Ask them how many kits they would need to sell a year for this to be a profitable venture. Ask how many ST185 kits they sold last year and the year before. Ask them how long their lead time is between a product proposal and final shipment of a new product. Don't be surprised if they say a year. A company as large as TEIN can’t just crap out a new product on a whim.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-26-2005, 01:37 AM
Hondatech might have 165,000 members
celicatech might have 3,000
celispeed might have 2,000
newcelica might have 2,000
4thgencelica might have 2,000
toyotacelica online might have 3,000
Just some of the celica sites off of the top of my head. The fact still remains that celicas are gaining more popularity among people looking for something thats not a honda. Its very rare the car with the biggest following becomes a classic/collector car. I look at a lot of the nissan z cars. The aftermarket comes after the demand. hondas are a dime a dozen, celicas are not.

I agree with you on almost every point, when your looking at creating something from scratch, but they don't have to do that, they have a setup that bolts up in the front and the rears only needs to be fine tuned. So based on your number the initial R&D cost would be 5000, so they build 100 kits, and those kits still cost 1300 your looking at 135,000 with your initial investment right, now cut that in half cuse they already have the fronts. You know they work, your not re-designing something that you know works. So that initial investment is now $67,500. Now if they were already sitting on 100 full kits, they can now be sold as kit for either setup, reaching a broader market. Susequent production runs are made in smaller quantities for the demand if any.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-26-2005, 01:44 AM
Hondatech might have 165,000 members
celicatech might have 3,000
celispeed might have 2,000
newcelica might have 2,000
4thgencelica might have 2,000
toyotacelica online might have 3,000
Just some of the celica sites off of the top of my head. The fact still remains that celicas are gaining more popularity among people looking for something thats not a honda. Its very rare the car with the biggest following becomes a classic/collector car. I look at a lot of the nissan z cars. The aftermarket comes after the demand. hondas are a dime a dozen, celicas are not.


Okay. So then:
clubsi.com 48,000
ephatch.com : 8,000
7thgencivic.com : 31,000
k20a.org : 13,600
Hondahookup.com : 46,600

The honda civic enthusiast base is probably 10 times the size of the toyota celica base. So let's see, 100 kits or 1000 kits a year.

I just think you may be overestimating the celica enthusiast customer base. Is it getting larger or smaller?



I agree with you on almost every point, when your looking at creating something from scratch, but they don't have to do that, they have a setup that bolts up in the front and the rears only needs to be fine tuned. So based on your number the initial R&D cost would be 5000, so they build 100 kits, and those kits still cost 1300 your looking at 135,000 with your initial investment right, now cut that in half cuse they already have the fronts. You know they work, your not re-designing something that you know works. So that initial investment is now $67,500. Now if they were already sitting on 100 full kits, they can now be sold as kit for either setup, reaching a broader market. Susequent production runs are made in smaller quantities for the demand if any.

It doesn't quite work that way completely. If you take resources away from the ST185 kits, then you don't have those kits to sell because they are incomplete. However, development cost may be less than $10k. Maybe it's more. I don't know how much it costs to develop a shiny coilover kit, nor how much it costs to ship them overseas.

After TEIN shuts you down, I suggest you try a smaller suspension company to see if they will make you a coilover kit. You will probably have better luck with a company based out of the US. Maybe start a poll on those boards you mentioned to find who would actually purchase a kit and for how much.

Sean
11-26-2005, 02:45 AM
Adrian, all were saying, is it doesnt hurt to try. We realize its a fat chance, but why not? It doesnt hurt to ask!

Besides, what about the Ford Probe? They stopped making probes in what year? From what I've seen, they have around 20,000 members strong, yet they built them a kit from scratch?

Did you look at those links I sent you?

Trance4c
11-26-2005, 03:10 AM
I've had both KONI shocks and GC's... I hated them.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-26-2005, 03:16 AM
:mswerd:, I so agree its worth a try, if we don't then they don't realize that we want these. I would be willing to spend the 1,200 to 1,500 on these as a set of koni yellows, eibach & kyb mounts will run you about that over here.

Honda clearly sold more civics then toyota sold celicas, the lack of tuner support is becuase the market for people buying celicas has never been as high as it is now. There was a time when we couldn't get lowering springs, gauge clusters, short ram intakes, cold air intakes, big brake kits, cat back exausts, cams, bolt on turbo kits, carbon fiber hoods. These products came around becuase there was a demand for them. Now we have everyone making springs and shocks, brullen with there over priced bolt on turbo kit but its an option. Because people like sean and me wanted it. You have to atleast try, cuse if you don't then it will never happen, I really feel that the similarities between the 5th gen alltrac and 5th gen celica is so minimal that they just over looked us cuse there weren't as many people swapping motors 15, 10 even 5 years ago, now we have like 3 people a month doing it. In st's, gt's, gts's, 4th gens, 5th gens, and 6th gens, even a few brave 7th gens. Not because there is a market but because people wanted something different.

So you said "I just think you may be overestimating the celica enthusiast customer base. Is it getting larger or smaller?

I would have to say larger, just look at what celica.net started with, that branched of to create two sites the only one I can call home is this one celicatech Now look at what it started with and what it is at now. I would say the number of sites dedicated to celica's is well over 15 sites each with there own following. Now look at celica.net 2 years ago, I would have said there are maybe 3 or 4 sites back then. I have to say your not giving the celica enough credit, it will never have the numbers that honda generates, but there is a more dedicated following for this close knit celica community.

Sean
11-26-2005, 03:18 AM
We gain about 10 members a day if that means anything to you guys :)

Kind of would like to keep this on topic.

Clayton, have you read through this? What are you thoughts on the upgrade to the Tein's?

3sgte@daspeedof
11-26-2005, 03:20 AM
Does anyone have or know someone with a set we can test fit on the rears of a gts. Cuse that is the only real concern right now.

Sean
11-26-2005, 03:24 AM
Hehe, i'll split the cost with you :)

I want these now. As soon as my next check comes in January, its on like donkey kong :)

Follow this thread:
http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12112

Adrian Avgerinos
11-26-2005, 05:22 AM
I've had both KONI shocks and GC's... I hated them.

Thanks for the useless conjecture. :bigthumbu

Sean
11-26-2005, 07:41 AM
I must be on your ignore list Adrian :hehe:

Trance4c
11-27-2005, 01:26 AM
Thanks for the useless conjecture. :bigthumbu

No prob.. nothing like first hand knowledge :hehe:

Trance4c
11-27-2005, 01:27 AM
Clayton, have you read through this? What are you thoughts on the upgrade to the Tein's?

I doubt there is the demand enough for the product to cover the R&D required to fit them to our setup.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-27-2005, 01:52 AM
I doubt there is the demand enough for the product to cover the R&D required to fit them to our setup.

Watch out. Negative responses grounded in reality are frowned upon 'round these parts. :hehe:

Sean
11-27-2005, 02:16 AM
AND!

Im done with this thread.

Trance4c
11-27-2005, 03:07 AM
AND!

Im done with this thread.

I don't think you should be done with it. I would be interested to see someone modify them to work. There isn't anything better than this setup!

Sean
11-27-2005, 03:19 AM
Oh trust me, I'm going to pursue this :) Just dont need the negativity.

I openly admitted it's going to be difficult to get Tein to commit, my point is it does not hurt to try. I dont like hearing it cant be done, it cant be done, then again, that also motivates me to show him that it CAN be done.

I wish he could provide some postive reinforcement instead of wasting thread space.

You Adrian, if anyone should understand that "It cant be done" is such a wimpy term. We all that we've accomplished in this world, It cant be done means nothing.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-27-2005, 05:55 AM
Sean, don't get your panties in a bunch. I'm just teasing you.

To be honest, I don't care either way what happens with the TEIN product line as I've already got upgraded shocks and springs. I'm merely playing devil's advocate so that others don't come back later and proclaim TEIN to be an evil company bent on disappointing Celica enthusiasts by NOT offering a product. In other words, I'm just answering the unanswered questions that may come up later.

Maybe that makes me a pessimist in some eyes. I think that makes me realist.

Sean
11-27-2005, 06:29 AM
Sean, don't get your panties in a bunch. I'm just teasing you.

To be honest, I don't care either way what happens with the TEIN product line as I've already got upgraded shocks and springs. I'm merely playing devil's advocate so that others don't come back later and proclaim TEIN to be an evil company bent on disappointing Celica enthusiasts by NOT offering a product. In other words, I'm just answering the unanswered questions that may come up later.

Maybe that makes me a pessimist in some eyes. I think that makes me realist.

I understand, and I'll try to unwind them.

I just sort of feel like you've been pissing in my cornflakes, throughout this entire thread.

Nemesis3S-GTE
11-27-2005, 06:04 PM
From what I remember someone back on celica.net actually fitted the Teins to a 184. It had something to do with drilling another hole in either the steering knuckle or the bracket on the strut itself. You might want to figure out the spring rates you want though, I doubt that the All-Trac's rear rates would be ideal for your car Sean.

Adrian Avgerinos
11-27-2005, 06:31 PM
From what I remember someone back on celica.net actually fitted the Teins to a 184. It had something to do with drilling another hole in either the steering knuckle or the bracket on the strut itself. You might want to figure out the spring rates you want though, I doubt that the All-Trac's rear rates would be ideal for your car Sean.

He may actually want something stiffer than what they recommend depending on what other suspension modifications he plans to do and how streetable he wants the car to be. (To be honest, I don't think those rate are "ideal" for an Alltrac either.) If he's running stock sway bars and he wants a softer ride, I'd probably recommend he opt for something like 7kg/mm // 6kg/mm rather than the standard alltrac 8/4. I'm running 8/7 on my GT right now with excellent results.

If he's got a rear sway bar upgrade then he may want to try something like 5.5kg/mm in the back.

Does anyone know in what increments TEIN springs are offered?



I just sort of feel like you've been pissing in my cornflakes, throughout this entire thread.

It's not intentional and I apologize if that's the way I came across. I'm just trying to help you see the complete picture.

Sean
11-28-2005, 08:01 PM
Sean,
We do have those coilovers but they are a special order item only. Those coilovers are SA-1's. It may take up to 6-8 weeks to receive them. Our coilovers are top of the line and these "concerns" are addressed by people who fail to take care of the products properly. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thank you.

From JIC

Sean
11-28-2005, 08:10 PM
Alright, just got off the phone with Tein.

The alltrac product line has been a very recent addition, its not going anywhere as far as they can project. He went into a bit of detail about the decision making for selecting new applications. He told me its basically based on the Japanese market, and an anaylsis of what people what. I told him about the minor differences in the rear and how simple it would be to open the SS up to a new market, they seemed very interested :)

Also, they said they will customize spring rates by swapping springs with what they have on their shelves. Overall, very nice guy :)

The point of interest to me, is that the castings are steel, and not aluminum. They're a twin tube design as well. So, it will be very easy to plasma, and reweld on the strut bracket. Heat is the only concern considering they are gas charged. Perhaps Adrian has some experience with welding on strut casings? Is heat an issue?

Adrian Avgerinos
11-28-2005, 09:00 PM
Well, I suppose some news is better than no news. I'm a bit dissapointed in the canned response from JIC. Specifically, what abuse caused the damage? It's obvious they are aware of issues, but it would have been nice to know what to avoid.

It's also a bit disheartening to see that they don't stock the dampers in questions which may make servicing quite interesting.

Typically phone conversations are more direct and it's nice that the rep at TEIN spent some time with you. Did the rep tell you exactly what spring options are available? I.E. what increments? Did he give you any marketing specifics?

As far as a twin tube design, that's pretty standard:


There are three basic designs of shock absorbers: twin-tube hydraulic, twin-tube low-pressure gas, and mono-tube high-pressure gas. Each of the three has its own abilities and functions, and you will find all three in street or street-derived racing applications.

One of the most common misconceptions is that a gas shock is filled entirely with gas and no oil. In fact, all three damper designs use hydraulic oil-they just may have a nitrogen gas charge pressurizing the oil in the shock. Do not select a shock simply because it does or does not contain gas. Look into its actual capabilities.

The twin-tube hydraulic, as the name implies, has two cylinders (or chambers) and no nitrogen. The inner cylinder is where the rod and piston live and work, and the outer chamber is a reservoir for oil and air. As the rod travels in and out of the inner cylinder during stroking action, it displaces oil from the inner to the outer cylinder, then draws it back inside. Although this is the oldest of the three designs, it still maintains certain benefits and has a place in performance damping.

The twin-tube low-pressure gas shock is much the same as the hydraulic, except that it has a low pressure (usually 5-15 bar/70-210 psi) nitrogen charge in the outer chamber instead of the air pocket. Some manufacturers seal the nitrogen in a plastic bag, while others will put the nitrogen in solution with the oil.

The original theory behind placing the nitrogen inside was that it would put the oil reservoir under pressure and therefore raise the oil's boiling point, reducing the tendency for heat-related fading or foaming as it passed through the valves. That really isn't much of a concern today as the quality of oil has increased in performance dampers. Plus, modern performance shock design has moved away from needle valves and o-ring seals that are affected by heat and viscosity changes, and most street cars and many race cars simply will not generate enough heat to challenge the oil in a proper performance shock.

However, when the nitrogen gas is in solution with the oil, it can give the added effect of damping really minute harmonics and motions that otherwise would not be big enough to make the damper's piston move.

The final design is the mono-tube high-pressure gas shock. The mono-tube's entire body serves as the chamber allowing for a larger piston area, and therefore it has the ability to transfer more damping information over a smaller stroke area. Displacement of oil by the incoming rod is handled by a chamber at the bottom of the unit that contains a high pressure (20+ bar/ 300+ psi) nitrogen charge and is separated from the oil by a floating piston.

Each design style offers certain advantages and disadvantages, so the best choice will depend upon the intended application.

A twin-tube design, when compared to a mono-tube, has a longer stroke capability and greater oil volume in a similarly sized unit. Therefore, the twin-tube will tend to give a smoother or more forgiving ride characteristic and still supply the firmness for proper handling control in vehicles that see average or long suspension stroke length.

The larger piston area of the mono-tube will give more control over much shorter stroke lengths or at the lowest piston speeds, but also tends to ride more harshly for exactly the same reasons. In racing applications where heat generation is more likely to be a factor, a mono-tube can cool itself more quickly because the shock body is the wall of the working cylinder.

You are likely to find mono-tubes on non-production based racers cars, where control over very short strokes is mandatory and ride quality is not an issue, or on production cars where designers tend not to want as much suspension travel. Some racing shock manufacturers use external reservoirs with mono-tubes to help with displacement lengths and oil volume, but in return add extra weight and some delay to the reaction ability.

Gas pressure in the shock can extend the oil's heat tolerances, but can also affect ride height because the greater pressure can act as a slight booster to the spring rate. Cars that run lower spring rates (drag racers are a good example) don't want the boost, so they usually use hydraulic shocks or must be willing to compensate for the gas pressure.

Mono-tubes can also operate while mounted on their side or at any angle, so they are more conducive to racing pushrod suspensions, while twin tubes must operate from upright to no more than 45 degrees from upright (which is still fine for most production-based suspensions).

As far as heat is concerned, I haven't had experience, but I would be concerned about it. I suppose it depends if TEIN's dampers are high or low pressure models. I'd probably feel more comfortable welding to a low pressure damper, though welding to a damper, in general, probably isn't a grand idea.

cms-gt4
11-28-2005, 10:40 PM
On the note of the Teins and Alltracs.

1) There used to be a thread in the 5th gen section (can't remember if it was tech or .net though) on how to fit teins to a regular celica.

2) I think the SS model for alltracs is a little different from the regular ss series but mostly made from the same parts.
Tein made the HA setup fort he alltracs at first. Due to lack of sales they canceled the line.

Later rocketeer (who I believed worked with them to release this) announces the release of the SS line for alltracs. The difference from the other SS models is that this one was based from the HA. Not sure if they had extra bits around or what, but they used most of what was their HA model into a SS model. The HA model was not intended for street use and was mean purely for racing while the SS claims it is good for daily driving.

http://www.tein.com/hadamp.html
http://www.tein.com/ss1damp.html

I can not remember all the differences from the 2 models for the alltrac, but I think the strut is the same and the main spring is the same. Not sure if the SS got the helper spring.
I know most of the SS owners were happy with their setup, and I am happy with my HA setup. Its hard to look at the specs of the Tein setup, since their isn't really any to view.

For a bolt on application its hard to beat the teins, but for an all out race car a custom setup would be a better approach.

Sean
11-29-2005, 12:22 AM
Yeah, I'm going to stay away from JIC. Unless they can provide some hard evidence to why their top of the line, I really want nothing to do with them.

I was not clear in this thread of the Tein setup was a mono or a twin, since they dont say so in their specs. So that was more of a clarifiaction for myself.

As far as the welding goes, I have seen some hot rod setups with custom welds and what not. I'll have to talk to my buddy who's going to be helping me with this. I cant really express how intelligent he is. I have never seen him not be able to fix something, whether its a car, or a microwave.

CMS: I have read about one guy on here who did it, but he never went into great detail, and it sounds like he didnt do the most professional install. Thanks for your input though :)

3sgte@daspeedof
11-30-2005, 04:25 PM
This is what I got in response to an email I sent to tein usa.

Tyrone,
Thank you for your interest in TEIN High Performance Suspension Products. The main reason on why we currently do not offer suspension for the fwd Celica is from the research that marketing has done, the market is not very big. Although from reading the forum link that you provided (and yes we did read through it). "Adrian Avgerino" brings up a few very interesting points, such as the amount of kits that may or may not sell, which to be honest, is a big concern. Seeing as we did manufacture suspension for the Alltrac and sales for the kit were not the greatest, we are a bit concern of how sales would be for the fwd Celica.
Also, "Sean" mentions the Ford Probe. The reason why suspension was created for the Probe was basically because we received numerous amounts of inquires buy owners who wear serious about buying a full coilover for their vehicle. Also we had one of the organizations approach us and offered us support through out the process, such as test cars, oem shock parts, etc.
Although "Adrian Avgerino" does bring up very good arguments, we must mention that even though Tein has been around since 1985, Tein USA has been here for less than 5 years. Therefore in some ways we still act as a new company since there is a plethora of vehicles here in the US that are not available in Japan.
After speaking with our engineers, if there was enough real request (as in a guaranteed customers, not just Celica owners who may someday purchase the kit) we may be able to at least R&D one of your Celica's to explore possibilities.

Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.
9798 Firestone Blvd.
Downey, CA 90241
Phone: (562)861-9161
Fax: (562)861-9171
www.tein.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tyrone Sparks
To: sales@tein.com
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 1:51 PM
Subject: Tein SS suspension


Hello,
I am looking to purchase some coilovers from your company, I have read a few reviews, and fell you guys would be the best choice for my application as well as quite a few people in the community I know. This would be for a 92 Celica GTS (fwd). Now I know you make these for the celica Alltrac (awd). And we have test fit a set of these on the front wheel drive celicas and the front line up and fit perfectly. The rears are where the questions come up, the spring rate in the rears are too much, because the fwd celica is a much lighter car. Check out http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12085, There isn't a following cuse people don't know they are available, if you made the ss for the celica (fwd) then you would have just as much sales for them as you do for the celica alltrac. If not more considering there are limited alltracs, and triple the number of celica gt, celica gts, celica stx, out there on the road today all over the world. The people on the site www.celicatech.com, would be more than welcome to get you a test vehicle to mock up this installation, and testing. And as a last resort I would even let you ship my car out to you, for testing if thats what it came down to. But don't sleep on this market group, celica enthusiust spend about 5 thousand on a motor swap. To get the power that the alltracs make in a fwd car. that is lighter, and quicker. The next big step would be suspension and handling. I hope you see that this is a very good market group for you to address. All hondas where not always performance cars till people realized how much power they could throw at it, and how cheap it was, the same can now be said for the celica following, which is slowly gaining more of a following just becuase its not a honda. Thanks for taking the time to consider this, and I look forward to hearing from one of your sales reps. or someone in your R&D department.

Other references
www.celispeed.com
www.celicatech.com
www.toyotanation.com
www.c7performance.com
www.alltrac.net

Salon Spa Software
Tyrone Sparks
Tech. Rep./Admin.

3sgte@daspeedof
11-30-2005, 04:35 PM
With enough requests from people willing to buy, this might actually happen

:woot:

cms-gt4
11-30-2005, 05:46 PM
If they could at least fab up an adapter to use the teins rears you would be set. They already offer custom spring rates, at least for the HA's. They told me I could send them back for rebuild and request another spring rate, for a price, for my struts.

Sean
11-30-2005, 07:50 PM
Thats really cool of them Tyrone!

If they could at least fab up an adapter to use the teins rears you would be set. They already offer custom spring rates, at least for the HA's. They told me I could send them back for rebuild and request another spring rate, for a price, for my struts.



Thats what I'm saying! Seem's like it would be super easy!

3sgte@daspeedof
11-30-2005, 08:41 PM
I sent them a response saying thank you, and asked how many people that were willing to buy now would it take to get this started? So when i hear back I'll let you guys know.

Adrian Avgerinos
12-01-2005, 12:49 AM
This is what I got in response to an email I sent to tein usa.

Tyrone,
Thank you for your interest in TEIN High Performance Suspension Products. The main reason on why we currently do not offer suspension for the fwd Celica is from the research that marketing has done, the market is not very big. Although from reading the forum link that you provided (and yes we did read through it). "Adrian Avgerino" brings up a few very interesting points, such as the amount of kits that may or may not sell, which to be honest, is a big concern. Seeing as we did manufacture suspension for the Alltrac and sales for the kit were not the greatest, we are a bit concern of how sales would be for the fwd Celica.
Also, "Sean" mentions the Ford Probe. The reason why suspension was created for the Probe was basically because we received numerous amounts of inquires buy owners who wear serious about buying a full coilover for their vehicle. Also we had one of the organizations approach us and offered us support through out the process, such as test cars, oem shock parts, etc.
Although "Adrian Avgerino" does bring up very good arguments, we must mention that even though Tein has been around since 1985, Tein USA has been here for less than 5 years. Therefore in some ways we still act as a new company since there is a plethora of vehicles here in the US that are not available in Japan.
After speaking with our engineers, if there was enough real request (as in a guaranteed customers, not just Celica owners who may someday purchase the kit) we may be able to at least R&D one of your Celica's to explore possibilities.

Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.
9798 Firestone Blvd.
Downey, CA 90241
Phone: (562)861-9161
Fax: (562)861-9171
www.tein.com


The bastard spelled my name wrong! Inconceiveable! :eek: They must make terrible products! Don't trust anything they say! :rant:

:D

3sgte@daspeedof
12-01-2005, 01:05 AM
lol, why u gotta push seans buttons, your just trying to shit on his dreams of having some teins, cuse you already have a sick setup.
:slap:

JK
:laugh:

Sean
12-01-2005, 06:45 AM
The bastard spelled my name wrong! Inconceiveable! :eek: They must make terrible products! Don't trust anything they say! :rant:

:D

Back to your "tein hype" purchase point... I really cant stand that god damn green, thank god it flakes off relatively easily :)

Though, I still do have one big question Adrian Avgerinos (:hehe:):

"Where I get confused, is the fact that the rebound is what is actually adjusted. By controlling the rate of expansion, I can see how this will effect ride quality, but I do not understand why compression is not effected and taken into consideration with the other half of the dampening system. Understand what I'm asking? "

Adrian Avgerinos
12-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Back to your "tein hype" purchase point... I really cant stand that god damn green, thank god it flakes off relatively easily :)

Though, I still do have one big question Adrian Avgerinos (:hehe:):

"Where I get confused, is the fact that the rebound is what is actually adjusted. By controlling the rate of expansion, I can see how this will effect ride quality, but I do not understand why compression is not effected and taken into consideration with the other half of the dampening system. Understand what I'm asking? "

Oh ya, sorry.

Easy. The spring's job is to hold the car up, not the shock. This is ultimately why most shock absorbers are not compression adjustable.

However, on a race car, you may want the ability to adjust how fast the suspension compresses for various reasons. Typically the compression adjustment is only set once whereas you may adjust rebound for different tracks to adjust how the car handles.

To put it more exactly:


Keep in mind that compression damping controls displacement of the car's unsprung weight on the initial contact with a bump while rebound damping controls movement of the car's sprung weight related to the elastic or restorative force in the compressed spring. Since sprung weight is much greater than unsprung weight, there is generally less compression than rebound damping.

Adrian Avgerinos
12-02-2005, 10:11 PM
I e-mailed TEIN last week, and received a response this week requesting that I call to discuss the specific questions I had. Today I spoke with Joseph at TEIN. He was very helpful and quite courteous despite my constant barrage of trivial questions. He wasn’t able to answer some of my more technical questions, but did say he could get back to me when their engineers get back to the office next week.

Here’s the quick and dirty on TEIN’s product line:

----- (Twin Tube) ------
TEIN Basic
Non-adjustable damping. For customers wanting to lower their car but keep a soft ride.

TEIN SS
Adjustable damping which changes rebound AND compression simultaneously. Valving is changed to handle stiffer springs. Ride height adjusted by spring perch placement. For sporty street drivers. Can be ordered with or without upper strut mount.

TEIN FLEX
Same as SS except valved a bit stiffer to handle stiffer springs. Lower shock/strut mount location adjustable independent of spring perch. Comes with upper strut mount. Indended as entry level track damper.

TEIN H series
All discontinued except for rally versions (HT, HG). The HA model has been superceded by the SS.

------ (Mono Tube) ------
TEIN R series
Also discontinued. Superceded by SUPER RACING line.

TEIN RA
Externally similar to SS, except aluminum body and/or inverted damper (depending on model). Comes with upper strut mount. Valved stiffer than FLEX series and comes with stiffer springs standard

TEIN RE
Adds ride height adjustment to RA line.

TEIN RS
Big difference is compression and rebound can be adjusted independently. On non-strut models there is an external fluid reservoir.

TEIN SUPER RACING
New version of the RS model. TEIN will also be introducing, in the next year, a product called MONOFLEX which, I think, will be a lower end version of the SUPER RACING. Probably similar to the RA or RS.

Other details
* They rebuild the parts in-house. If there is no waiting, turnaround time is 1 day. Dyno charts can be supplied if requested. They can revalve them to match whatever spring rates you want. So if you like the features of the SS, but want valving to handle the 800 lb springs for your trailered race car, they should be able to oblige. (I'd guess you would want to call them first with a specific situation before assuming anything though).
* Springs are offered in 1 or 2 kg/mm increments (55 or 112lb/in) increments. Typically 6,7,8,9,10,12,14. etc. Most springs are linear but some are progressively wound. (Joe used the term “tapered” when I asked about this, so maybe we misunderstood each other.). Springs cost $100 a pair.
* Dampers last about 60,000 street miles. (IMO industry standard)

I’m going to follow up next week with Joe on trying to get some dyno graphs to see a comparison of the low and high speed damping of some of their models.

I’m going to try to put one of those “More than you wanted to know about suspensions” posts together and include this info in a separate thread along with a glossary of what stuff means and how it affects the handling of your car. My goal is to put that together before Christmas.

Sean
12-02-2005, 10:28 PM
I heart you Adrian...

Now be honest, does it make you want to rethink your current suspension setup? Do you think you might of considered the Tein SS if they had a model that was a direct fit?

Adrian Avgerinos
12-02-2005, 11:23 PM
I heart you Adrian...

Now be honest, does it make you want to rethink your current suspension setup? Do you think you might of considered the Tein SS if they had a model that was a direct fit?

I'm going to refrain from responding until I see some dyno graphs. However, I'll leave you with this thought: I'm a cheap bastard. ;)

Sean
12-02-2005, 11:39 PM
Well, I just think its cool that your whistling a different tune. You were very quick to put the Tein's down, with not actually knowing much about them.

Thats all.

Trust me, I'm a cheap bastard too, but I have some sort of balance. Im quite the internet shopper :)

Adrian Avgerinos
12-02-2005, 11:47 PM
Well, I just think its cool that your whistling a different tune. You were very quick to put the Tein's down, with not actually knowing much about them.

Thats all.

Trust me, I'm a cheap bastard too, but I have some sort of balance. Im quite the internet shopper :)

I recently decided that I should at least know what the hell I'm talking about if I'm going to give my opinion on something.

3sgte@daspeedof
12-03-2005, 01:54 AM
And I thank you adrian, for informing the rest of us, cuse I would have not know about all of that. I look forward to the dyno results though. I also got another response from them.

Tyrone,
We are sorry for the untimely reply, we are experiencing heavy email volume and are doing our best to reply upon reception. We have asked our marketing and R&D department to see if a number can be given. As for Adrian, we apologize that we forgot the "s". Also to the many members inquiring about welding on a different bracket. More than likely it will affect the internals, however we have had customers send in dampers with custom fabricated brackets for an overhaul which will take care of that.

Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.
9798 Firestone Blvd.
Downey, CA 90241
Phone: (562)861-9161
Fax: (562)861-9171
www.tein.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tyrone Sparks
To: TEIN USA INC
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Tein SS suspension


First off thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. What I need to know is how many people will you need, that are willing to pay for these coilovers to get this started. I will be more then happy to put this out there, on all the boards if it means that there will be a set available for the 5th geneneration celica. Thanks again for taking the time to look into this. I look forward to hearing from you.


Tyrone Sparks
SalonsSalon Spa Software
Tech. Rep./Admin.

Adrian Avgerinos
12-03-2005, 04:25 AM
And I thank you adrian, for informing the rest of us, cuse I would have not know about all of that. I look forward to the dyno results though. I also got another response from them.

Tyrone,
We are sorry for the untimely reply, we are experiencing heavy email volume and are doing our best to reply upon reception. We have asked our marketing and R&D department to see if a number can be given. As for Adrian, we apologize that we forgot the "s". Also to the many members inquiring about welding on a different bracket. More than likely it will affect the internals, however we have had customers send in dampers with custom fabricated brackets for an overhaul which will take care of that.

Best regards,
Sales


:laugh: Well, at least they've got a sense of humor. :D

I figured the problem with welding might be just as they described. I'd hazard a guess they will not directly recommend the modification as it would void the warranty. The best approach is to probably pick up a used set, modify those, and then send them to TEIN to be overhauled.

3sgte@daspeedof
12-21-2005, 11:59 PM
suuusssshhhh!

If its as simple(I know its not) as moving where the rear sway bar connects to the strut you might see someone :D in the new year rocking some teins. :wiggle:

whtcelionteins
01-05-2006, 07:53 PM
Hello Celica Tuners...

I have a 1990 Celica ST(AT180) fitted with Tein Type HA meant for the ST185 applications. First and foremost the SuperStreet(SS-Model) replaces the HA model. Nothing special just name changing, due to more US sales. Onto better things...

On the previous board I found out that the HA meant for the ST185, is part bolton, part fabrication to fit. The front struts are a bolt-on affair. The rear must be modified to fit. Now, on the previous board another member had fitted the HA's to his non-ST185, I think it was a GT(184?). What he did to make it work was re-weld the bottom of the Rear Tein Struts, to make it a bolt-on affair. RippMods did the modification, I think, I could be wrong.

Now, I'm all for bolton, but, re-welding a gas charged strut, not for me... So, I did the next available solution... Make it fit! I had a local machine shop re-drill my rear spindles to fit, and, bolton the rear TEIN Struts.

SEAN,
The differences, of the ST185 applications, are the lower rear strut mounting points an height. The mounting points(where the bolts pass through), are closer than non-ST185 applications. And the strut body is about an inch or half an inch longer than non-ST185 applications.

The Results of how I did it... Since I had the rear spindles re-drilled for the rear TEINS to fit, and the TEINS are shortened, that means my rearend drags @$$... Screwed to the upmost threaded collar it still tucks 16" wheels, and rear camber is crazy cambered!!! Also to note, since it is shortened(TEINS), when I bolted the rear struts on, the brake hose mounting interefered with my OEM rear sway bar, so I hamered that in, it now clears. BUT, I cant run the ST Adjustable rear sway bar, it plays touchie-touchie, rubbie, rubbie...

Now, I raced my Celica last year, at 4-events, about 22 runs including test & tune events. The rear spindle has held up, with no signs of cracking. If you daily drive you Celica, I say dont do it. If for racing and a typical Weekend Showoff, go for it, then again there are better ways to improve your suspension.

How it rides, its stiff... I use click 9-10 to get to the track, and use click 12-16 for track purposes... Right now, its raining out, so I cant provide pictures. So hopefully on Sunday, it'll clear and I'll get pictures up...

Right now, in the coming months, I'm gonna scrap the TEIN's for custom struts w/resevoirs & springs so I can run different size wheel & tire combos, mainly 17"+...

BTW, another application worth mentioning, is the ST202(TEIN SS)... Not sure the differences... Also try the AE92 or AE101(via Ksport)... BTW, Ksport is dealing with AW11 tuners to produce a fullcoilover application... You guys might want to try them out, they're reasonable suspension company... Plus there prices are tasteful... ie $899 for a full-set for an AE92, tasteful...

So til then, I'll be back on Sunday...

This thread is very useful, so please if you have any questions specific to making the TEINS fit non ST185's, please ask them here and when I get back I'll answer 'em here on this thread. Thank you.

Sean
01-05-2006, 11:28 PM
I wish you had pictures. So the strut body itself is longer then the GT struts.

So is an alltrac rear spindle not as tall as well? Hmm... I might have to bug David "codingparadox" to rip off his wheels and compare the setups a bit in the rear first hand.