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Colossus20v
12-22-2004, 04:04 PM
I am in need of purchasing a new ignitor and coil. I am thinking instead of just going with oem maybe I should consider msd or another aftermarket system. Any adivce on ignition setups. Also what msd components should I get?

Snafu
12-22-2004, 04:28 PM
OEM is perfect. Dunno where to find it for the 20v however.

Blackcloud
12-29-2004, 05:27 AM
would i be able to upgrade to a new ignition for my car? or would it even be worth it?

Luni
01-03-2005, 08:12 PM
I doubt it would be worth it.

But yes you could upgrade your ignition.

KoreanJoey
01-04-2005, 03:39 AM
Man... I wish I knew one way or another... I have a 3rd Gen and have to wait for the coil, ignitor and maf sensor. :owned:

Weasy2k
01-04-2005, 07:22 PM
I am in need of purchasing a new ignitor and coil. I am thinking instead of just going with oem maybe I should consider msd or another aftermarket system. Any adivce on ignition setups. Also what msd components should I get?

Theonly "upgrade" i would think to be worth it is to get rid of your IG system completly and go to DIE, but that requires alot of work :hehe:

Colossus20v
01-04-2005, 07:25 PM
what do you mean "DIE"

Weasy2k
01-04-2005, 08:19 PM
Whoops i mean DIS :P Distributorless Ignition System...where you take the disti right out and replace it with a coil over plug system :)

Colossus20v
01-04-2005, 08:40 PM
i thought maybe distributorless system but then couldnt figure out the "E" part...i was begining to pull my hair out...

Fenix
01-05-2005, 04:33 AM
or CDI

Super Shadow
03-10-2005, 05:14 AM
CDI is a capacitive discharge system. What it does is stores the voltage until it is ready to use. And then releases it all at once, resulting in a more powerful spark. Such as in and MAD 6A or SCI ignition. What I have is a 6AL which has a soft-touch rev limiter in it. These systems are add ons to an ignition system. They can't totally replace it.

MoralWarfare
03-10-2005, 10:38 AM
that sounds useless, capacitive discharge.

nuclearhappines
03-10-2005, 07:40 PM
it isn't , it gives you a higher intensity spark for a shorter duration of time, vs inductive ignition which gives you weaker spark for longer time.

The thing is, capacitors can charge up faster than inductors... and so you can multiple spark the engine (which is where the name MSD comes from Multiple Spark Discharge)... so that you have multiple, short, high intensity sparks, which result in a spark energy greater than that of the long weak inductive spark. Also, since it sparks multiple times per /fire you are less likely to missfire with bad plugs or high boost because it sparks up to 10 times per fire (below 3500 rpms).

As rpm's rise, an inductive ignition does not have enough time to recharge to peak power. Therefore your spark capacity drops as rpms rise ... however CDI is very quick to recharge so you can effectively use it for high rpm motors (all motor bikes).

So the answer is no it's not useless. It gives you better burn because it can give you upto 35* of crank angle rotation worth of spark, up to 10 sparks. Gives a more complete burn (better below 3500 rpm torque, and better milage and better emissions). And it also gives you full spark power at higher rpms (where an inductive ignition might trail off).

you can upgrade a normal inductive distributor ignition by switching to a better coil.
A coil with an E-Core and a higher turn ration and a lower primary resistance will give you more spark energy at the plugs. Weather you need / will use this extra head room depends on the specific application.

The 'E-core' is a coil that has a core that increases the effeciency of energy transfer between the primary and the secondary coils. Increasing the mangnetic field and its effeciency in the coil.

The turn ratio controls how high the voltage is ramped up in the coil. With a 100:1 turns (typical for aftermarket coils) you put 12v and 1 amp in ignitor side and if you had 100% effeciency you'd get 1200volts and 0.01 amps at the distributor side of the coil. If your stock coil has 50:1 ratio then you just upgraded from 500 volts to 1200 volts at your plug.

The primary resistance is the resistance of the primary coil inside the coil. say you have 10ohm primary stock and you go to a 2 ohm primary (aftermarket) you are now charging your coil up to 5 times faster (depending on the rest of hte circuit). You are also putting in up to 5 times as much current at the same voltage potentially having up to 5 times as much power available as you did stock.

So if you go from a 10 ohm 50:1 coil to a 2ohm 100:1 aftermarket coil (everything else stock) you now will have anywhere between 0-10 times the spark energy at your plugs. depending on what the current and voltage limitations are in the charging circuit (the ignitor).

So now you say, well i can upgrade the ignitor too to charge up my coil to its max.
And the answer is the msd 6al is an uber ignitor. that's what it does basically. and that's how the setup works.

So the answer is that you can upgrade your ignition system for any car starting at 120 dollars and up

(iridium plugs 40, ngk wires 25, msd coil 35, new cap and rotor 15) and you're good to roll.

if you put another 200 on that you wil get the benefits of cdi.

MoralWarfare
03-10-2005, 11:33 PM
did I ever tell you that I love you?

nuclearhappines
03-11-2005, 12:31 AM
why ? no ?

sorry i was bored ..so i just started free writing/ flowing

-nuek

Galcobar
03-11-2005, 01:25 AM
Please, be bored more often -- good information is always appreciated. Complete explanations even more so. Hope you'e still bored, 'cause I got a question.

I know, courtesy of Henry, that the combination of better ignition and a larger airbox produced 5 HP and 5 ft/lbs more in the 92-93 5SFE than the 90-91 engine. What's the difference in the ignition?

MoralWarfare
03-11-2005, 02:07 AM
Nuke, I mean to say thank you, I liked reading that. I may wind up running a 6AL and other MSD goodies on the scirocco if I can figure out how to hook everything up. Crazy VWs. BTW, your math is off.

"The turn ratio controls how high the voltage is ramped up in the coil. With a 100:1 turns (typical for aftermarket coils) you put 12v and 1 amp in ignitor side and if you had 100% effeciency you'd get 1200volts and 0.01 amps at the distributor side of the coil. If your stock coil has 50:1 ratio then you just upgraded from 500 volts to 1200 volts at your plug. "

50:1 would be 600 volts.

gen5
03-11-2005, 11:55 PM
Ok Nuke-1st where did you find NGK wires for $25? I'd like to get some at that price
I am looking at 2 different coils, here they are-
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_1_8200_8202_8223.htm
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_6_8207.htm
I can't decide because the SS is an E-core but turn ratio is only 70:1 while the standard Blaster 2or3 has a 100:1 turn ratio. Which is better? I will be starting off with one of these and will be stepping up to another ignition later which I also am wondering which is better-
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_1_5900.htm
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_4_6200.htm
1 more- Why iridium plugs? I have a set of NGK IX iridiums. How long do these plugs last? Oh and you can get 'em at Advance or Kragen for about $25 ($6.96ea)
Wait- last one- what do you think of these Nology Hotwires with thier built in capacitors?

Galcobar
03-24-2005, 01:39 AM
All right, so I've subsequently been able to figure out that the 92-93 5SFE came an ignition design where the coil is integrated into the distributor, whereas the 90-91 coil is mounted up on the firewall.

Anybody know if we could swap a 92-93 ignition into a 90-91 without having to also swap the ECU, and get those few ponies us early editions were cheated out of?

Freeze
03-24-2005, 04:18 AM
Would this switch also result in better gas milage by chance?

Luni
03-24-2005, 05:21 AM
Would this switch also result in better gas milage by chance?

It sure would.. Maybe 1-3 percent better depending on the overall health of the engine.

Galcobar
03-24-2005, 06:29 AM
So is that a yes, we could use the distributor setup from a 92-93 in a 90-91 5SFE without swapping anything else?

Conrad_Turbo
03-24-2005, 01:48 PM
It sure would.. Maybe 1-3 percent better depending on the overall health of the engine.

...of 20mpg...that's like 0.6mpg increase. Haha. If the ignition system has enough energy to ignite the fuel then that's all that is necessary, having a beefed up system will just ensure combusion, not necessarily give more power or mpg (only if there was missed combustion strokes).

Luni
03-24-2005, 06:22 PM
The way I understand it, if you are cruising, and your ignition can help you burn more fuel, the O2 sensor reports different, your engines "burning habbits" are different and it is more efficient.

Ive seen many times, upgrading the ignition, to like an MSD like Nuke was talking about, or a Jacobs, will increase performance in many ways. One of them is economy and power.

alltracman78
03-25-2005, 03:22 AM
Yes, a MSD will definitly improve gas mileage. I got ~ 60 more miles per tank with a MSD in the 'Trac.
If the improved spard results in a better "burn" it will effectively push the piston down harder=better gas mileage.

He should be getting better than 20mpg with a 5S. I get more than that in the 'Trac.

As far as the dist issue, the 92 up dist has a wire [output] the 90/91 ecu doesn't have a input for. So I'm guessing you would need to switch ecus too.

gen5
04-03-2005, 12:04 AM
What I have is a 6AL...
I just invested in an MSD SCI box. What did you run the white wire and the red(acces.) wire to. Instructions are vague at best and I still don't have an electrical dia. saying what is what. Anyone?

Conrad_Turbo
04-03-2005, 04:09 AM
The way I understand it, if you are cruising, and your ignition can help you burn more fuel, the O2 sensor reports different, your engines "burning habbits" are different and it is more efficient.

Ive seen many times, upgrading the ignition, to like an MSD like Nuke was talking about, or a Jacobs, will increase performance in many ways. One of them is economy and power.

A NASA study: http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1925/naca-report-202/naca-report-202.pdf

If the stock system is incapable of igniting the air/fuel mixture (high boost, nitrous and so on) then an upgrade will restore the lost power that the engine should have been making. If the OEM ignition system has enough power to ignite the air/fuel mixture then upgrading the ignition system it is just a waste of money.

gen5
04-03-2005, 04:33 AM
Then why do we have emissions inspections, exhaust gas return systems and so on? Because of unburnt fuel. If a better ignition system can burn this before it leaves the chamber the first time, then a gain will be made.

Conrad_Turbo
04-03-2005, 07:14 AM
Then why do we have emissions inspections, exhaust gas return systems and so on? Because of unburnt fuel. If a better ignition system can burn this before it leaves the chamber the first time, then a gain will be made.

No combusion is 100%, reason being is that there isn't enough time for all the fuel to burn during a combustion cycle, that is the reason why we have EGR's, cat's, O2 sensors and so on to catch this unburned fuel down the line. Flame propigation is determined by the fuel quality, air/fuel mixture and combusion chamber design, not by the energy of the spark.

gen5
04-03-2005, 02:21 PM
Hhmm...good point. Well, I'll let you know what results I see after I put mine in. Maybe a dyno later down the road.

Weasy2k
04-03-2005, 10:00 PM
I would relaly love to put a DIS system in my car....i want to get rid of that distributor. I know a cam pickup is not that hard but would it be easy enough to put a crank pickup in the 3s engines?. I have a while to figure this out as the engine im building isnt expected to be done until early next year. Just wanna get the best setup, and tuning DIS without disti is alot nicer.

alltracman78
04-04-2005, 05:48 PM
Weasy, crank pickup shouldn't be too hard, the AEM? uses it, just need the trigger, sensor, mount and wiring.
I don't think it would work with the stock ecu tho. even with a piggyback.

Adrian, as far as that study, I dunno. I read through it quick-like. I'll have to go back and read it more in depth.
When was it done? Seems to be quite old....[shrug]
One thing tho,
I installed a MSD SCI on my 92 AT. I noticed a immediate improvement in gas mileage. I have been traveling up and down 95 for the past 7 years, about 12 times a year. I was regularly getting right around 300 miles to the tank. Usually a bit less.
With the MSD it went up to over 350 miles. Wheather this is from better burn, or just a stronger spark cleaning out the chamber, it's real. Not marketing hype.
More hp I'm not so sure about. It feels like it, but I havn't done any dyno tests, so I can't say.

Weasy2k
04-05-2005, 05:09 AM
Weasy, crank pickup shouldn't be too hard, the AEM? uses it, just need the trigger, sensor, mount and wiring.
I don't think it would work with the stock ecu tho. even with a piggyback.



Yea, i like to learn by example so ill have to hunt down some pics or something :)
Im going to be using a standalone system that ill be selling soon to control it too.

Weasy2k
04-05-2005, 05:13 AM
BRILLIENT!!!.......now....how do i build such a difibulator!?

rataplan
04-15-2005, 09:07 PM
hello i buy a celica st 1994 at200 7a-fe in february and i want to make a mod in my car .
i need help to buy the correct parts.

ignition MSD Ignition SystemSCI/SCI-L Ignitions Control (No Rev Limiter)
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/viewproduct~Toyota~Celica~~Ignition~Ignition_Syste ms~.html

coil MSD Coil Blaster SS Coil
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/viewproduct~Toyota~Celica~~Ignition~Coils~.html

MSD Blaster Coils
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/viewproduct~Toyota~Celica~~Ignition~Coils~.html

Venom Injector Super Flow
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/viewproduct~Toyota~Celica~~Fuel~Injectors~.html

map ecu
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/viewproduct~Toyota~Celica~~Electronics~Engine_Mgmt _Systems_-_PB~.htm
l
these parts fit in my celica, and can i get a good horsepower

the exhaust is make in portugal were i live