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Disco Dan
10-02-2005, 03:42 AM
Ok, so something has been bothering me lately. I have this strange desire to own an alltrac. I like the shape, and the ability to have fulltime all-wheel-drive. I also like the speed, admittedly. But... I really don't like, especially with gas prices as they are now, the idea of getting only 25 (max) miles to the gallon... ON PREMIUM FUEL.

SO!

An idea occurred to me. I wonder how possible it would be to get the AWD power of the alltrac, combined with the more fuel-efficient 3SGE engine. If I understand the concept behind the 3SGE, it is essentially a non-turbo 3SGTE, right? Like, it should link right up with the tranny and fit in the engine bay with minimal problems?


In any case, this would be down the line, but I'd like to do this with a convertible if possible. I'll probably enlist the help of Jeremy for the part where I rip out the floor boards and weld in an alltrac floorpan! WHEEEE!!

Galcobar
10-02-2005, 05:18 AM
One problem -- the All-trac/GT4 only came in liftback form. Considering the convertibles were a) converted coupes and b) in need of reinforcing just to withstand FWD with a maximum 135 HP/145 ft-lbs, I can't see this as being terribly safe. By the time you incorporated enough of the GT4 underbody and additional bracing to prevent the chassis from pretzeling itself, any gas savings you'd achieved with the NA engine would be eaten by the extra weight.

InitialD93
10-02-2005, 05:41 AM
if u bastardize an All-Trac like that i might have to hurt u...

it would be slow as a pig with the 3SGE in it... even with a BEAMS motor in (which will still need premium) you wont see any gas gains because a NA motor will have to work harder to pull all the weight

Disco Dan
10-02-2005, 06:48 AM
The extra reinforcing you're referring to is basically the thick steel piece that runs from one strut tower to the other. I know this because I'm in the process of cutting one up at a local yard and that was the first thing I cut through. The other stuff that's in the back end is more specific to the convertible top mounting and the seat and seatbelt placement. Maybe a rear sway bar but other than that, you're not looking at all THAT much difference in the body.

The MAIN difference in weight would be the larger transmission and the extra drivetrain/differential for the rear wheels.

Actually, this is irellevant anyway, because speed isn't my main goal. My main point would be having AWD. It'd be much better for the winters, and mud wouldn't be as much of an issue. Plus the AWD would help offset some amount of the handling issues encountered with the convertible.

In either case, I know my convertibles. I don't need information on that. As it is, I'm quite happy with my 5SFE engine. I'm under 90k on the ticker so I've got well over 10 years of use to get out of it before I consider this swap. And quite honestly, I don't need a vehicle with 200 horse power. I get enough speeding tickets with my stock 135, and with the amount of driving I do, I don't want to be the sucker paying the highest price for gas at the pump.

Now, 'InitialD93' is probably right that pulling the extra weight would make the 3SGE engine a bit slower, though his description of the power loss is a bit exaggerated and purely conjecture, considering he's never actually tested this hypothesis. Although if you can show me the calculations you used to come to that conclusion, I'd consider your statements more seriously. However, if I were able to get the same acceleration I get out of the 5SFE but with AWD, I would be satisfied. Now if gas prices are lower when (and if) I decide to do this, then I would more likely go with the 3SGTE engine, but for now, it just isn't necessary.

SO! That being said, I think you two basically said that it was possible, so that's what I really needed. Thanks!

GT4SOM
10-04-2005, 05:14 AM
3sge would be really slow in a alltrac. The awd drivetrain really slows you down. I would just say buy a subaru or something that comes awd.

Gary
10-04-2005, 05:42 AM
There is no need to test the hypothesis.
You will never have enought 3sge-swap alltracs to make the sample size big enough.
It's a fact/common sense.
The alltrac weighs ~400 lbs more.
Most of that comes from AWD drivetrain.
That is ~15% more weight to pull.
3SGE is a high rev/higher CR engine and produces less torque.
You will have to rev it high to pull all the extra weights.

InitialD93
10-04-2005, 07:57 AM
plus you are looking at about a 25% drivetrain loss with the AWD system.. so even my car at about 260ish HP is only putting about 195 to the wheels.

dont remember what the beams is or the regular 3SGE but subtract about 25% from that power rating and see where that puts u to the wheels... FWD only looses about 10-15%... and then you have the 400 extra pounds of weight to pull from the rear section also. Im guessing u are talking about putting this in your convertible also...

an AWD convertible will more than likely end u up with a twisted chassi even if you did manage to fabricate all the stuff to hang the rearend propperly... then again with a NA motor you prolly wont be making enough power for it to matter

ask any All-Trac owner that has had turbo problems what their car feels like without boost.... you wont get many plesant responses

Dr Tweak
10-04-2005, 08:10 AM
Yeah I agree with the above. If you want a fuel-efficient car, get a Tercel as a daily beater, and put your money into the fun, gas-guzzling car of your choice.

:)

-Doc

Luni
10-04-2005, 03:38 PM
WTF are you talking about weight.

Bottom line is the Trac weighs like 500 lbs more at LEAST than a standard tubby 5th gen GTS.

Doesnt matter where it comes from. If you put a 3SGE in there you might lose about 70 of the lbs to the turbo system and stuff but youre still going to be heavy as hell.

You ever driven a BMW non M car? Take like an older 325 or 330, they have 190 hp and theyre heavy as an alltrac and theyre still as slow as a 7th gen GT. Maybe a tid quicker. It takes alot of power to move that tubby thing. Your fuel economy would be in the toilet because you would be spending more time in wide open throttle. Engine speed doesnt necessarily use gas. Throttle position (wide open throttle for you) does. Youd be spending your time with your foot to the floor to keep that fat thing moving.

Its a horrible idea. Not to mention youd be bastardizing a rare car.

alltracman78
10-05-2005, 02:59 PM
Damn!
I almost missed all the fun.

To start, I have to say this idea has occurred to me as well. Either conv or ST [for weight without having a bare shell].
Whether it's a good one..... :shrug:

First off, I HIGHLY doubt the 3SGTE would twist the frame in anything close to stock form. Maybe if you had 400+ hp...
Regardless, all the extra bracing is on the bottom of the car, and the strut tower braces Dan mentioned.
I won't bother going over the 3SGE....
Dan, you can pull more than 25 mpg in a Alltrac. I'm doing it. Of course I don't have the stock ecu anymore....

My biggest thing is the loss of an Alltrac. Unless you go and buy all the parts new....

Dunno. It would be intesting, in a strange way.
Plus, you would have a rare car.
AWD turbo Celica conv.

:shrug:

alltracman78
10-05-2005, 02:59 PM
You have a wrecked one up there?!!
PM me the junkyard please. :)

Disco Dan
10-06-2005, 03:40 AM
No, though I wish I knew of one.

Yeah, you guys are hilarious though. You really think that if I had access to a good condition Alltrac, that I would just chop it up???

Anyway, I meant using the parts from a wrecked one, but if the 3SGE wouldn't pull it, it wouldn't be worth the swap. That I'll agree with.

But as I said, this wouldn't be till much later. My current engine only has 90K on it so I'm in no hurry to put something else in it. Thanks for the education though!

ChrisD
10-25-2005, 08:42 PM
Convertible = heavy
Alltrac = really heavy
Convertible + Alltrac = .....

Search for the AWD conversion threads. There's a host of reasons not to do it. There are many who talk, and very , very few who do it.

Disco Dan
10-26-2005, 12:46 AM
true, very few people seem to go through with this conversion.

Then again, I'm the guy who took the trouble to buy two sets of mirrors (one power-folding, RHD set from japan, one non-power folding, but heated and LHD set from Germany) took them apart, ground down the metal base inside the passenger side mirror (so it would fit in the LHD mirror mount) and wired them all up using stock wiring so that it looks pretty AND functions! Yeah, so I wasted my share of system 10 wire harnesses in the process, but it was worth it! It's great for the ATM and drive throughs, AND it's functional 'cause I can see out of both sides!

Granted, that's a lot less of a bear than an AWD swap, but the determination, patience, and attention to detail that is required for someone to go through with that is all right here!

BlueDragon
10-31-2005, 04:45 PM
no offence, horrible idea. Not to dog on your convertable but its chasis just isnt stiff enough to even warrent an awd system, and since your not worried about speed or super tight, sticky cornering your just waisting time money and gas with the AWD. But an old corrolla alltrac if u need a winter car, they have a NA motor and AWD.... just my opinion.


But if you do do it... more power to ya good luck.

Beefed

VikingJZ
11-19-2005, 11:30 PM
The forty five year old Pizza Hut delivery dude here in town has a 1990 All-Trac Wagon. It's pretty cool.

ChrisD
11-20-2005, 05:45 AM
^^camry alltrac

cms-gt4
12-06-2005, 04:57 AM
How bout just buying a gts, a alltrac hood and some snow chains or at least some good allweather/winter tires?

Punisher
12-06-2005, 05:11 AM
I'd rather see you try a CeliCopter...... lol

801st165
02-17-2006, 07:46 AM
No, though I wish I knew of one.

Yeah, you guys are hilarious though. You really think that if I had access to a good condition Alltrac, that I would just chop it up???

Anyway, I meant using the parts from a wrecked one, but if the 3SGE wouldn't pull it, it wouldn't be worth the swap. That I'll agree with.

But as I said, this wouldn't be till much later. My current engine only has 90K on it so I'm in no hurry to put something else in it. Thanks for the education though!

well you were thinking about putting an N/A on the alltrac drive terrain :D

Conrad_Turbo
02-17-2006, 01:55 PM
I wonder how possible it would be to get the AWD power of the alltrac, combined with the more fuel-efficient 3SGE engine.

The power to the AWD comes from the turbo on the 3s-gte. You’d basically build the worst of the two cars, you’d have a heavy pig with a torqueless engine. If you want fuel economy and AWD buy an AWD Tercel.