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View Full Version : HP potential of "stock" 3rd Gen 3SGTE



CelicaLaxer11
12-18-2004, 05:39 PM
Okay well... all this talk about Injector size and HP potential... I was hoping not to spend CASH_EN_MASS to get to that lucky number 300... soo here is my setup

3rd Gen 3SGTE
- Fully Rebuilt
- Balanced
- Returned to Factory Spec
- Pistons Friction Coated and Heat Dispersal
- Oil Attraction coating on main Bearings
- Flywheel and Clutch Blanaced Together
- Flywheel lightened by no less than 5 Lbs from TEP
- Unorthodox Lightweight Pulley

550 cc stock injectors cleaned and matched by RC

Greddy BOV (with return to intake)

Boost Controller of some persuaion, hopefully my own or the Blitz EBC? the uber one thats 1/2 a din wide.

Magnacore race wires (8mm yes i know it won't affect it that much)

No less than 2.5" Exhaust from the Turbo Back

Yes i know i can't just tick off a 5 - 10 hp gain with each thing i spent over $100 on... What I am wondering tho.. will the stock turbo and stock 550 cc injectors support 300 HP by just turning up the boost?

My friend shaun just bought a SRT4 and the dick measuring contest has already started.... i just want to be able to make sure HIS reaction will be (....Zzziiip... Flop..... HOLY $HIT..)

Luni
12-18-2004, 08:14 PM
Yes. 550 injectors are good for around 330-350 hp on a 3SGTE... A CT20b with the proper goodies and tuning MIGHT be able to push it... Not sure tho.

JGS3SGE
12-18-2004, 09:02 PM
My friend shaun just bought a SRT4 and the dick measuring contest has already started.... i just want to be able to make sure HIS reaction will be (....Zzziiip... Flop..... HOLY $HIT..)

LOL! I have a 6G celica + an HPU SRT-4 (big turbo, intercooler, E-man, 650s, etc.)...
You might need more than a CT20B, the SRT-4 with BPU (still stock turbo, intercooler, etc.) can hit 280WHP and mid to low 12s (on DRs with a good driver). Kiss your ass good bye if he drops in an AGP turbo kit with all the nessary goodies, people think there is something wrong if their not dynoing 350+WHP on pump w/ said kit. Over 400WHP is attainable with a good spooling .50 trim T3/T04E on PUMP gas.
The celica is lighter but for some reason (namely front weight bias from that big 2.4L and heavy duty trans) the SRT can hook really good.
My advice? you'll need to pile on some MO MODS if your friend upgrades his turbo/fuel system... as I've learned first hand, the SRT is nothing to sneeze at with the stock motor being able to handle 500WHP (if your careful).
Not saying either car/motor is better, just giving you the heads up from a guy who compares them daily :hehe:

ChrisD
12-18-2004, 10:02 PM
OK well to put it into context, my car, which is heavier than yours, stomps on SRT-4's as it sits. At my altitude, stock SRT's typically run low 14's. Lightly modded ones get into the high 13's.

As for you motor.

The 540cc/min injectors can hit nearly 400bhp if the cards are played right. These are not really your limiting factor on the CT20b. I think that the 540's are very appropriately sized for the CT20b.

You have to be pretty careful, since most people I know that have the ST205 motor and run high boost also use water injection to fight detonation.

I know one person that set boost to 20psi, had an intake, exhaust, water injection, gen 3 motor on an ST185, and ran a 12.9 in the 1/4.

In my opinion, with your boost set to something like 15psi, you should easily be able to beat the SRT. Are you looking for 300bhp or 300whp? 300bhp is doable with just more boost, will be quite a bit harder to hit that at the wheels.

Here is a graph that might be useful for you to determine what yours can do. Power at the wheels, on an mr2.

------------------------------------------

David Kelly: the graph in RED. I have a genIII 3s-gte with the stock ct20b turbo, stock fuel system, stock cams, and stock ecu, built by Hux Racing with JE pistons, head porting. K&N intake, Greddy IC, Hux Racing downpipe, and Hux Racing dual exhaust. Boost was set at 17psi with a Greddy ProfecB

http://www.turboforum.net/dyno/images/davidkelly/dnorun.gif

------------------------------------------

JGS3SGE
12-19-2004, 01:27 AM
Just because lots of noob drivers buy SRT-4s that means we're all slow LOL. http://www.srtforums.com/forums/timeslips.php
You'll have to go along ways back to find a 14...


At any rate... If your friends a nob and stock, you'll have no problem. If he's done all the BPU mods, a little tuning, and a good driver...
You might have a surprise.
In the end... its about the tuning/mods/driver when you start with any decent factory turbo car platform.

330WHP isn't bad for a stock turbo tho, I'd be interested in what gas they where running... that huge bump at the end is strange.

ChrisD
12-19-2004, 02:18 PM
Just because lots of noob drivers buy SRT-4s that means we're all slow LOL. http://www.srtforums.com/forums/timeslips.php
You'll have to go along ways back to find a 14...


At any rate... If your friends a nob and stock, you'll have no problem. If he's done all the BPU mods, a little tuning, and a good driver...
You might have a surprise.
In the end... its about the tuning/mods/driver when you start with any decent factory turbo car platform.

330WHP isn't bad for a stock turbo tho, I'd be interested in what gas they where running... that huge bump at the end is strange.

Again, the blue graph is not of the car. It is the RED graph you have to look at. The blue is just a test. 286whp at 17psi.

I also noted that I was talking about them running at my altitude, 3500ft and that is often "corrected" to over 5000ft at the track because of conditions where I live. They definitely dont often run 13's here. Even an STi with a good driver can only hit a 13.6 on occasion at best. STi's typically run high 13's. I have beaten a few.

But yeah, they have numbers heh. We are a much smaller community of course. But seriously, any 6th gen with a 3rd gen swap running a little more boost should have no problem destroying an SRT-4.

:)

Luni
12-19-2004, 04:20 PM
Yeah Im with Dittrick.

a 3rd Gen 3SGTE is rated at 240 hp at the crank at like 9-10 psi.

SRT 4s have what stock? I know its alot higher than 9 isnt it?

Mod for mod, until you start getting WAY up there (displacement will ALWAYS win out in the end) the 3SGTE is every bit as potent as the SR engine IMO.

HOWEVER I havent dicked around with em, Ive just read about what they are doing over at the srt forums and here.

CelicaLaxer11
12-19-2004, 04:38 PM
SRT4 has 230 All the time... i.e. if the intercooler is heatsoaked it turns up the boost (Crazy Mopar Guys).

Mr E
12-19-2004, 04:52 PM
3rd gen 3S-GTE is good for 300bhp stock to be honest.

Fuel mappings to 17.5 psi on the standard ECU. With decent breathing and exhaust that's big numbers.

I'm looking for 300bhp with a remap, probably don't need WI if the car is mapped correctly.

Chargercooler is god for that sort of power. Fuelling can cope. It's all gravy.

I wouldn't go any further than that on stock internals though. And you don't want to detonate in any event.

CelicaLaxer11
12-19-2004, 05:51 PM
oh ya the ECU is a ST205 WRC one :-D

Luni
12-19-2004, 06:41 PM
When I said they have what stock, I meant how much PSI is a stock SRT4 running?

Mr E
12-19-2004, 06:58 PM
oh ya the ECU is a ST205 WRC one :-D

You mean grp A, and there's no difference anyway.

Jap spec ECUs have allegedly more aggressive fuel maps.

CelicaLaxer11
12-20-2004, 02:41 AM
You mean grp A, and there's no difference anyway.

Jap spec ECUs have allegedly more aggressive fuel maps.

Group A in the UK, WRC in Japan, and there has to be a difference, you can't pully a 30 HP improvement out of your ass, the motors are identicle

JGS3SGE
12-20-2004, 03:43 AM
Stock SRT4s make about 11-13psi stock...
But the turbo is very limited so its not really a fair comparsion, holding 15-16psi till 6K is about the highest you'll find even with an aftermarket actuator. THe turbo is NOT a 16G like lots of people think, its more in line with the GReddy 15G compressor (as in the one they use on the D16 Honda). And the turbine wheel is one of the smaller I've seen.
But even with the handicap turbo, 225-230WHP is not uncommon stock.

13.6 in an STi is :ghey: I guess being a good driver isn't a requirement for buying an STi...

But as it seems you all have your minds made up so...
tHe CeLi iS the fAsTeSt EVAR yO!@#
'cause its immune to high elevation unlike the rest of the cars in the world...
:saythat:
:hehe:

carlosfandango
12-20-2004, 05:09 AM
1.7 bar 500bhp is also doable.

do it, do it, do it.

ChrisD
12-20-2004, 04:08 PM
13.6 in an STi is :ghey: I guess being a good driver isn't a requirement for buying an STi...

Trust me, this track I run at is one of the slowest around. Most of them run high 13's, once in a blue moon someone will run a little quicker (quickest I know of is 13.6). I don't think thats far fetched, Car and Driver rated it at 13.2, Hot Rod magazine rated it at 13.29. I raced my car in Seattle (sea level) and here in Calgary, and I lost 3mph in my trap speed without any changes in mods. SRT-4's run 14's here. Period. At 12psi my car made 236whp, pretty close to what a stock SRT does. But with a 1.9 second 60' I can and have beat them even at 12psi. On the street it is a pretty good match. Now that my car is running 14psi, it's not really that close though. Elevation is quite high, 3500ft which is usually NHRA corrected to over 5000ft.

Celica isn't the fastest car around, hell no. Especially the 4WD variants. But we sure can have a good time when it gets a little slippery.

CelicaLaxer11
12-20-2004, 04:21 PM
You have to remember the celica is a 12 year old car...

ChrisD
12-20-2004, 04:23 PM
Mine is 17 years old! :bigthumbu

JGS3SGE
12-20-2004, 04:36 PM
You can cut a 1.9 in an SRT...see list I posted. Also remember SRTs weight a portly 3100 lbs.

Luni
12-20-2004, 04:43 PM
Are they really that heavy?

Thats tubby as all hell....

ChrisD
12-20-2004, 04:45 PM
I'm sure it is possible on drag radials. There's a guy here with a pretty heavily modded one that is running 12 flat. Thats the only one I've seen on drag tires, most others run street tires. I'm getting into the 1.8xx's now on street tires. :bigthumbu

I would have thought those things would be lighter, wow. That likely helps with their launching. But it should help out the FWD celicas in a race, since they are lighter. I think most swapped celicas can run roughly mid-high 13's with a good driver (I think Sean S had some fun playing with the SRT guys). After racing a few of them on the street, I definitely don't discount their abilities, trust me!

ChrisD
12-20-2004, 04:46 PM
Are they really that heavy?

Thats tubby as all hell....

No kidding. My car is a rolly polly 3285lbs, and that includes a big assed drive shaft and 4WD system, and a fully loaded interior.

JGS3SGE
12-20-2004, 06:22 PM
The SRT 2.4L is a heavy duty part, heavy iron block. Also the transmission is a heavy mother, 500+WHP and nobodies poped one yet.
So it ends up being really nose heavy, hense why they can hook.
Most BPU SRTs are running 13s (high or low is dependant on elevation/driver skill). And by BPU I mean wastegate actuator, intake, exhaust, stg. 1 or injectors and SAFC OR just adding a return line :)
Not much $$$ to make really notable gains.
My 6G weights 2700lbs right now :(

ChrisD
12-20-2004, 06:30 PM
Any idea why they feel the need to upgrade the wastegate actuator? Would a decent boost controller not do the same thing and be way easier to install?

Luni
12-20-2004, 06:55 PM
Mabye they have a real internal wastegate chris and the only way they can get more is to upgrade the actuator. Maybe they dont have a line going to it.

YangS
01-07-2005, 07:30 PM
Too bad srt4 arn't awd...

Sean
01-07-2005, 08:38 PM
Why are we doing this in a whole nother thread? Can we please keep it ON TOPIC! LETS DISCUSS GETTING TO 300HP, NOT BENCH RACE ABOUT SRT-4'S.

For 300hp on a 3rd gen, you really DONT need much. Upgrade your exhaust to 3 inch all the way back. Crank the boost up to around 17 or 18, get some copper spark plugs, make sure your cap and rotor are good, and you should be pretty damn close. Your running the WTA intercooler right? If not, look towards water injection.

Your not on the NA fuel pump are you? If you are, you need to bump that up very soon here.... Bryan Moore hit 313hp (highest to date i believe) with his CT-20b, on a 2nd gen. This turbo will take you to 300hp.

YangS
01-07-2005, 08:57 PM
Thinking about it, after the swap (st215) into fwd celica, with my exhaust system, intake setup and running 12psi should bring me pretty close to 270-275 Hp (300 Hp isnt that far away after swap)

Mr E
01-08-2005, 01:20 AM
Group A in the UK, WRC in Japan, and there has to be a difference, you can't pully a 30 HP improvement out of your ass, the motors are identicle

WRC/GrpA produces *exactly* the same output as a standard ST205. The only difference is some cosmetics and a few bits that are disabled and there for homogation reasons.

I've run heathy WRC/GrpA ST205s mirror to mirror. They're the same car. Anyone who tells you different is talking shite.

Beej
01-09-2005, 10:12 AM
WRC/GrpA produces *exactly* the same output as a standard ST205. The only difference is some cosmetics and a few bits that are disabled and there for homogation reasons.

I've run heathy WRC/GrpA ST205s mirror to mirror. They're the same car. Anyone who tells you different is talking shite.

true. We only got the group A's delivered over here, 73 of em....they came with a big fuk off wing, and apparently water injection :| (i think its not turned on though)

thats what ive HEARD......i have an original review of it in a magazine from wen it came out.....doesnt mention in but hey *shrugs*

i also heard the GrpA 205's came with anti lag.......once again :|

Classique71
01-09-2005, 11:37 AM
diabled Water injection , anti lag ,+ water spray kit for the heat exchanger ..

Big F off wing - and possible slight alterations to gear ratios ..

Oh and fancy pants extra stickers

Mr E
01-09-2005, 11:45 AM
185s got different gearing I think.

ST205/ST205WRCs are the same.

WRC had disabled water spray, antilag and a big rear wing.

Standard 205s have a higher top speed due to lack of rear handle.... :)